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hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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11 May 2018 06:25
 
GAD - 10 May 2018 07:43 PM
hannahtoo - 10 May 2018 03:08 PM

Here’s another link to the incident.

One thing I’m wondering is why people call the police to solve problems that could be solved by talking.  This escalates an incident, rather than resolving it quietly.  Who knows what the motivation for calling the police was in the dorm case?  Couldn’t the caller just have checked with the RA? 

In Colorado, two Native American young men who joined a group of prospective students touring a college campus were pulled aside by campus police because a parent felt nervous.  Could the parent have just asked the kids a few friendly questions to allay their fears?  The boys had longish hair and t-shirts with what looked like heavy metal band logos.  OK.  Why would that be a police matter?

If nothing else, these sorts of incidents show that there is fear among our citizens.  And maybe a significant factor is the media magnifying events.  I agree that, in the big picture, these sorts of events are minor compared to, say, N Korean missiles.  But these social skirmishes are right in our faces, and maybe similar to what average citizens deal with on a daily basis; whereas N Korea is all distant potentialities.

Yes, a significant factor is the media magnifying events to sell ads. How many times have people called the police on white people who they thought were suspicious? We don’t know, because no one cares because that doesn’t sell ads like saving the poor minorities from the bad white people.

That’s a good point.  I’d like to see stats on that from police departments. 

Here are stats on how many drivers of different races are pulled over.  Blacks are pulled over more than whites.  Of course this could depend on policing policies in different neighborhoods.  However,

Black drivers are 31 percent more likely to be pulled over than whites; they are more than twice as likely to be subject to police searches as white drivers; and they are nearly twice as likely to not be given any reason for the traffic stop…

Maybe someone can find the stats on “suspicious persons” calls.

[ Edited: 11 May 2018 12:34 by hannahtoo]
 
NL.
 
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NL.
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11 May 2018 08:40
 
Brick Bungalow - 10 May 2018 08:13 AM

There is too much self righteous indignation on the part of people who cannot acknowledge their own privilege.

 

One more thought - and I’m sorry to nitpick, Brick, as I know you care about these issues and can get ‘fired up’ about them out of compassion, so not trying to dampen your general message. That said, I do think the kinda OCD, Spock-esque nuances are important when considering these matters as well, ha ha!


Anyways, on reflection, I think the word ‘privilege’ is actually an extremely dangerous, Orwellian word when it’s applied to what should be normal standards. It says to the group who’s being treated normally ‘you’re lucky this isn’t happening to you to, and if you slip up you’ll get the same’; and it says to the group who experiences poor treatment that society would be doing them a big favor and doling out privileges to them if they stopped.


So, minor point, but semantically, now that I think of it, I do think it’s very important to reserve the word privilege for actual cases of privileged treatment. String-pulling, nepotism, kickbacks, special favors, etc., etc. I think confusing normal treatment with privileged treatment is a dangerous path.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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11 May 2018 08:57
 
hannahtoo - 11 May 2018 06:25 AM
GAD - 10 May 2018 07:43 PM
hannahtoo - 10 May 2018 03:08 PM

Here’s another link to the incident.

One thing I’m wondering is why people call the police to solve problems that could be solved by talking.  This escalates an incident, rather than resolving it quietly.  Who knows what the motivation for calling the police was in the dorm case?  Couldn’t the caller just have checked with the RA? 

In Colorado, two Native American young men who joined a group of prospective students touring a college campus were pulled aside by campus police because a parent felt nervous.  Could the parent have just asked the kids a few friendly questions to allay their fears?  The boys had longish hair and t-shirts with what looked like heavy metal band logos.  OK.  Why would that be a police matter?

If nothing else, these sorts of incidents show that there is fear among our citizens.  And maybe a significant factor is the media magnifying events.  I agree that, in the big picture, these sorts of events are minor compared to, say, N Korean missiles.  But these social skirmishes are right in our faces, and maybe similar to what average citizens deal with on a daily basis; whereas N Korea is all distant potentialities.

Yes, a significant factor is the media magnifying events to sell ads. How many times have people called the police on white people who they thought were suspicious? We don’t know, because no one cares because that doesn’t sell ads like saving the poor minorities from the bad white people.

That’s a good point.  I’d like to see stats on that from police departments. 

Here are stats on how many drivers of different races are pulled over.  Blacks are pulled over more than whites.  Of course this could depend on policing policies in different neighborhoods.  However,

Black drivers are 31 percent more likely to be pulled over than whites; they are more than twice as likely to be subject to police searches as white drivers; and they are nearly twice as likely to not be given any reason for the traffic stop…

Maybe someone can find the stats on “suspicious persons” calls.

Your link doesn’t work.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/09/you-really-can-get-pulled-over-for-driving-while-black-federal-statistics-show

More crap statistics to sell a narrative. It’s like eating bacon increases cancer by 50%!!! That sells ads, then you look at the data and it 1 in a million chance vs 1.5 in a million and then say so what and have a nice BLT.

 

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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11 May 2018 12:43
 
GAD - 11 May 2018 08:57 AM

Your link doesn’t work.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/09/you-really-can-get-pulled-over-for-driving-while-black-federal-statistics-show

More crap statistics to sell a narrative. It’s like eating bacon increases cancer by 50%!!! That sells ads, then you look at the data and it 1 in a million chance vs 1.5 in a million and then say so what and have a nice BLT.

 

Thanks for fixing the link. 

BTW it’s 9.8% of white drivers who are pulled over versus 12.8% of black drivers.  So a diff of 3 in 100, not 1 in 1,000,000.  That’s about one million more blacks pulled over than would be if both races were stopped at the white citizen rate.

 
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11 May 2018 15:00
 

I think the timing of exposing these incidences is good.  This is the crap our black brothers and sisters have to deal with daily.  Not that it happens to them individually daily, but they are on pins and needles every time they are out of their area, aware that being black invites harassment, from long stares to police pulling them over for DWB.

I thought living in a city which is 25% black that they would get a break, but nope, it still happens.

 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
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11 May 2018 15:00
 
NL. - 11 May 2018 08:40 AM
Brick Bungalow - 10 May 2018 08:13 AM

There is too much self righteous indignation on the part of people who cannot acknowledge their own privilege.

 

One more thought - and I’m sorry to nitpick, Brick, as I know you care about these issues and can get ‘fired up’ about them out of compassion, so not trying to dampen your general message. That said, I do think the kinda OCD, Spock-esque nuances are important when considering these matters as well, ha ha!


Anyways, on reflection, I think the word ‘privilege’ is actually an extremely dangerous, Orwellian word when it’s applied to what should be normal standards. It says to the group who’s being treated normally ‘you’re lucky this isn’t happening to you to, and if you slip up you’ll get the same’; and it says to the group who experiences poor treatment that society would be doing them a big favor and doling out privileges to them if they stopped.


So, minor point, but semantically, now that I think of it, I do think it’s very important to reserve the word privilege for actual cases of privileged treatment. String-pulling, nepotism, kickbacks, special favors, etc., etc. I think confusing normal treatment with privileged treatment is a dangerous path.

For sure. Words are dangerous. ‘Privilege’ has made that unfortunate transition from concept to meme and thus is now front loaded with all kinds of unhelpful baggage. I share your worries.

My complaint isn’t with those who are worried about language but rather those who would deny the proposition.

 

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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11 May 2018 18:12
 
hannahtoo - 11 May 2018 12:43 PM
GAD - 11 May 2018 08:57 AM

Your link doesn’t work.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/09/you-really-can-get-pulled-over-for-driving-while-black-federal-statistics-show

More crap statistics to sell a narrative. It’s like eating bacon increases cancer by 50%!!! That sells ads, then you look at the data and it 1 in a million chance vs 1.5 in a million and then say so what and have a nice BLT.

 

Thanks for fixing the link. 

BTW it’s 9.8% of white drivers who are pulled over versus 12.8% of black drivers.  So a diff of 3 in 100, not 1 in 1,000,000.  That’s about one million more blacks pulled over than would be if both races were stopped at the white citizen rate.

Um, more like 98,000 vs 128,000 for every million stops. What are you expecting, exactly 50/50 irrespective of context?

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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11 May 2018 18:15
 
Brick Bungalow - 11 May 2018 03:00 PM
NL. - 11 May 2018 08:40 AM
Brick Bungalow - 10 May 2018 08:13 AM

There is too much self righteous indignation on the part of people who cannot acknowledge their own privilege.

 

One more thought - and I’m sorry to nitpick, Brick, as I know you care about these issues and can get ‘fired up’ about them out of compassion, so not trying to dampen your general message. That said, I do think the kinda OCD, Spock-esque nuances are important when considering these matters as well, ha ha!


Anyways, on reflection, I think the word ‘privilege’ is actually an extremely dangerous, Orwellian word when it’s applied to what should be normal standards. It says to the group who’s being treated normally ‘you’re lucky this isn’t happening to you to, and if you slip up you’ll get the same’; and it says to the group who experiences poor treatment that society would be doing them a big favor and doling out privileges to them if they stopped.


So, minor point, but semantically, now that I think of it, I do think it’s very important to reserve the word privilege for actual cases of privileged treatment. String-pulling, nepotism, kickbacks, special favors, etc., etc. I think confusing normal treatment with privileged treatment is a dangerous path.

For sure. Words are dangerous. ‘Privilege’ has made that unfortunate transition from concept to meme and thus is now front loaded with all kinds of unhelpful baggage. I share your worries.

My complaint isn’t with those who are worried about language but rather those who would deny the proposition.

The word privilege doesn’t only refer to unfair advantages.  It can also mean an honor or position of respect that is appreciated.  As in, “It is my privilege to accept this award on behalf of my colleagues.”  So white privilege could translate into being treated with dignity, as opposed to others who are treated with suspicion or disregard.

 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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11 May 2018 19:06
 
GAD - 11 May 2018 06:12 PM
hannahtoo - 11 May 2018 12:43 PM
GAD - 11 May 2018 08:57 AM

Your link doesn’t work.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/09/you-really-can-get-pulled-over-for-driving-while-black-federal-statistics-show

More crap statistics to sell a narrative. It’s like eating bacon increases cancer by 50%!!! That sells ads, then you look at the data and it 1 in a million chance vs 1.5 in a million and then say so what and have a nice BLT.

 

Thanks for fixing the link. 

BTW it’s 9.8% of white drivers who are pulled over versus 12.8% of black drivers.  So a diff of 3 in 100, not 1 in 1,000,000.  That’s about one million more blacks pulled over than would be if both races were stopped at the white citizen rate.

Um, more like 98,000 vs 128,000 for every million stops. What are you expecting, exactly 50/50 irrespective of context?

OK, noticing that I got the million by extrapolating from the black population, rather than the black driving population.  THX.

There were 222 million total drivers in the US in 2016.  An average of about 10% get pulled over.  That’s 22 million.  Therefore, the difference in race amounts to many thousands of stops each year.  That is probably concentrated in certain areas of the country.  Very noticeable.

What is the context that results in 30% greater chance for black drivers to be pulled over?  Part of it is that their cars are more likely to have problems (like a broken light), which could be due to poverty.  But why more likely to be searched or given no reason for the stop?

 

[ Edited: 11 May 2018 19:24 by hannahtoo]
 
NL.
 
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11 May 2018 20:10
 
Brick Bungalow - 11 May 2018 03:00 PM

For sure. Words are dangerous. ‘Privilege’ has made that unfortunate transition from concept to meme and thus is now front loaded with all kinds of unhelpful baggage. I share your worries.

My complaint isn’t with those who are worried about language but rather those who would deny the proposition.


Interesting. For my part, I neither deny the proposition nor accept it as a blanket assertion. I think racial discrimination happens. I have also worked for black families who were, in any traditional sense of the word, far more ‘privileged’ than me, in terms of income, connections, perception of importance, and so on. And good for them, they earned it - but I feel like it would be weird for me to take a sort of pitying attitude towards their lack of privilege when, at the time at least, my entire condo would have fit into a quarter of their basement. Is it true that in some situations they probably have had to deal with racism that I haven’t? Yes. Is it true that in some situations they were more privileged than me? Also yes.


Another example from my life - in hindsight (something that literally just occurred to me during this thread) I think I have possibly been pulled over for ‘driving while tan.’ I have had a good driving record all my life except for one brief period where I lived in a certain area and literally almost lost my license over multiple small infractions - for one in particular, if I remember correctly, the officer would have had to have run my license plate while driving behind me (I had an expired something or other, I think). It wasn’t until years later that I heard the police are supposedly notorious for pulling over people who look Hispanic in that particular area (which I do,) because of M13 presence, and not until today that it occurred to me that, since this has never happened before or since, my appearance could have been a factor (Or, I’m just a crappy driver, also possible.)


Did that particular experience strike a deep chord for me, making me feel marginalized because of my appearance? Honestly, no - it was a problem in that context, but in other contexts, various other dynamics have played a much stronger role. As someone with family and friends in law enforcement, I’ve found it far more personally upsetting to watch them be stereotyped and demonized because of some bad apples, a fair bit of public misperception, and inaccurately reported news stories - as if it’s fine to turn people into a demonized bloc, so long as it’s based on fears and stereotypes other than race and gender. I find it more personally hurtful to see impoverished rural people demonized, openly humiliated and mocked by people whose whole schtick is to pretend they care so deeply about other people (but not - ick - those people,) and often left to die alone in horrific circumstances, without any real advocacy, in the current opioid crisis. Their whiteness doesn’t seem to be privileging them much there. Watching anyone being treated unfairly because in that moment they are on the low end of the totem pole feels terrible, no matter the reason.


And my point is that I think those dynamics shift frequently. Yes, we should be concerned about the times when race is one of them. But no, I don’t think it’s a singular prism through which to view the world. Stereotyping, demonizing, and unequal treatment are the root problem, and the dynamics of who that happens to and why often vary depending on the context. Some are present more than others, of course, and that should be taken into account - but I do not accept the idea of any ‘-ism’ as a static picture. There are all sorts of factors that put people at an advantage or disadvantage in any given social situation, and to make the concept of privilege synonymous with identity politics just doesn’t track with reality, to my mind.


Honestly, I think the insistence in going down this road is an absolutely terrible move on the part of the far Left, and one that tends to needlessly alienate people. We are living at a time when some huge percentage of the country is actually in agreement that racism and inequality are bad things - I think the focus should be on demonstrating positive, real world work in those areas, rather than promoting increasingly esoteric and divisive versions of identity politics.

 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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12 May 2018 06:11
 

Racism is like bullying.  It’s an aspect of human nature that we have to work against continually, every generation. 

Being a police officer is an extremely difficult job.  They carry weapons and are put into the most stressful situations imaginable.  Some police are racist or otherwise unsuited, and society needs to recognize that and deal with the offending individuals.  Just like, in a schoolroom, teachers need to deal with the bullies.  Great police officers should be held up as role models.  Communities which successfully fight crime and build partnerships between police and other citizens should be publicized and celebrated.  Bad apples should be removed from the basket.

Both these things are true:  there are police officers doing their tough job as well as humanly possible, and there are police officers who are not.

If a person is driving with an expired license plate, he’s running the risk of being pulled over.  But he shouldn’t be roughed up or otherwise disrespected.  And by the same token, the driver shouldn’t disrespect the officer.  A layer of pathos is added if the driver is poor and can’t afford to renew his car registration, yet needs to drive to work.  A definite Catch 22.  Maybe there should be a loan program or waiver for low income people who hold steady jobs, but still can’t pay all their car expenses.  Lack of transportation is a huge handicap.

 
GAD
 
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12 May 2018 06:51
 
hannahtoo - 11 May 2018 07:06 PM
GAD - 11 May 2018 06:12 PM
hannahtoo - 11 May 2018 12:43 PM
GAD - 11 May 2018 08:57 AM

Your link doesn’t work.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/09/you-really-can-get-pulled-over-for-driving-while-black-federal-statistics-show

More crap statistics to sell a narrative. It’s like eating bacon increases cancer by 50%!!! That sells ads, then you look at the data and it 1 in a million chance vs 1.5 in a million and then say so what and have a nice BLT.

 

Thanks for fixing the link. 

BTW it’s 9.8% of white drivers who are pulled over versus 12.8% of black drivers.  So a diff of 3 in 100, not 1 in 1,000,000.  That’s about one million more blacks pulled over than would be if both races were stopped at the white citizen rate.

Um, more like 98,000 vs 128,000 for every million stops. What are you expecting, exactly 50/50 irrespective of context?

OK, noticing that I got the million by extrapolating from the black population, rather than the black driving population.  THX.

There were 222 million total drivers in the US in 2016.  An average of about 10% get pulled over.  That’s 22 million.  Therefore, the difference in race amounts to many thousands of stops each year.  That is probably concentrated in certain areas of the country.  Very noticeable.

What is the context that results in 30% greater chance for black drivers to be pulled over?  Part of it is that their cars are more likely to have problems (like a broken light), which could be due to poverty.  But why more likely to be searched or given no reason for the stop?

Again it’s 9.8% vs 12.8%, but that just doesn’t sound as good as 30%, oh my.

Well it can’t be that the likelihood that 30% more blacks are criminals, that’s racist, so it could only be that states have laws that white people are good and black people are bad and only hire police who hate black people to enforce them, yep, that is the only possible answer. 

 

 
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
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12 May 2018 14:01
 

hannahtoo

Here are stats on how many drivers of different races are pulled over.  Blacks are pulled over more than whites.  Of course this could depend on policing policies in different neighborhoods

...

Exactly, and the data in the rest of the article bears this possibility out. 

It’s an unfortunate fact that densely black-populated urban areas are higher crime precincts than white areas, and given urban traffic, drivers are less likely to be pulled over for speeding than for something like a vehicle defect, which to a police officer is ‘probable cause’ to make police presence known to potential criminals—again, unfortunately in these areas, criminals who are disproportionately black.  And note in the data: black drivers are more likely to be stopped for vehicle defects than for speeding, 19% versus 12.7% for whites—a 33% difference, almost the same as the difference in total traffic stops.  This kind of skew could result in a somewhat greater proportion of traffic encounters with police generally in a national sample simply by virtue of the frequency of stops in these higher crime urban areas, meaning that in these high crime areas, there are disproportionately more stops, and more of those stops will involve blacks.  This same logic could apply to the likelihood of being searched.  In high-crime areas, searches will be more likely once stopped.

It’s possible and could apply.  In any case, this perfectly sensible way of reading the data should prevent any knee-jerk imputations of racism (not that you had one!).

[ Edited: 14 May 2018 06:34 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
ubique13
 
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ubique13
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15 May 2018 13:06
 
hannahtoo - 12 May 2018 06:11 AM

Racism is like bullying.  It’s an aspect of human nature that we have to work against continually, every generation. 

Being a police officer is an extremely difficult job.  They carry weapons and are put into the most stressful situations imaginable.  Some police are racist or otherwise unsuited, and society needs to recognize that and deal with the offending individuals.  Just like, in a schoolroom, teachers need to deal with the bullies.  Great police officers should be held up as role models.  Communities which successfully fight crime and build partnerships between police and other citizens should be publicized and celebrated.  Bad apples should be removed from the basket.

Both these things are true:  there are police officers doing their tough job as well as humanly possible, and there are police officers who are not.

If a person is driving with an expired license plate, he’s running the risk of being pulled over.  But he shouldn’t be roughed up or otherwise disrespected.  And by the same token, the driver shouldn’t disrespect the officer.  A layer of pathos is added if the driver is poor and can’t afford to renew his car registration, yet needs to drive to work.  A definite Catch 22.  Maybe there should be a loan program or waiver for low income people who hold steady jobs, but still can’t pay all their car expenses.  Lack of transportation is a huge handicap.

It’s so refreshing to see that now we all finally know.

We know what this country has become, and we know where it’s going. We know that we’ve tacitly allowed for ourselves to be baptized in blood, and we’ve all condemned the future generations of Americans to endless misery and torment.

We know that the believers and the false idolators all worship at the altar of the golden calf, and we all know that there is no reason to expect that we will be treated mercifully by those who have been oppressed under the heel of a fascist fucking regime.

Goodnight, Lady Liberty. The Ouroboros is constricting.

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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15 May 2018 15:31
 

And I should add that the police I have personally interacted with have been very good professionals and compassionate also.  I have a relative who is mentally ill, and difficult, and local police have always dealt with him with admirable patience and concern for his well-being.

 
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