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"US liberal Islamophobia is rising – and more insidious than rightwing bigotry"

 
HBarca
 
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HBarca
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27 May 2018 05:20
 

US liberal Ismalophobia is rising - and more insidious then rightwing bigotry

Perfectly representative of everything that is wrong with the modern left. A difficult diatribe to digest.

 
RoseTylerFan
 
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RoseTylerFan
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27 May 2018 06:46
 

It is entirely reasonable to be afraid of an ideology which wants to conquer the world and drive it back to the 7th century.

What is wrong is demonizing all people who claim to be Muslims. First, they are no worse than our ancestors in the 17th century. Second, only a minority of them really believes in all the objectionable content in the Koran and Hadith.

 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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27 May 2018 07:12
 
HBarca - 27 May 2018 05:20 AM

US liberal Ismalophobia is rising - and more insidious then rightwing bigotry

Perfectly representative of everything that is wrong with the modern left. A difficult diatribe to digest.

That article offered zero evidence to refute the claim that fundemental Islamic communities statistically struggle with homophobia, sexism, misogyny and the stifling of free speech. Do you have any evidence of whether these claims are over-generalizations in reference to varying Islamic cultures?

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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28 May 2018 07:59
 
RoseTylerFan - 27 May 2018 06:46 AM

It is entirely reasonable to be afraid of an ideology which wants to conquer the world and drive it back to the 7th century.

What is wrong is demonizing all people who claim to be Muslims. First, they are no worse than our ancestors in the 17th century. Second, only a minority of them really believes in all the objectionable content in the Koran and Hadith.

About half of the world’s Muslims want to live in a theocracy. Further, the core tenets of Islam, and the values derived from these core tenets ARE incompatible with Western values. The core values of Islam are misogynistic, anti-semitic, homophobic, anti-secular, and supremacist. Now you might say that not all Muslims support these values, and you’d be correct. But hundreds of millions do, and that IS a real problem.

[ Edited: 28 May 2018 08:03 by icehorse]
 
 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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31 May 2018 10:07
 
icehorse - 28 May 2018 07:59 AM
RoseTylerFan - 27 May 2018 06:46 AM

It is entirely reasonable to be afraid of an ideology which wants to conquer the world and drive it back to the 7th century.

What is wrong is demonizing all people who claim to be Muslims. First, they are no worse than our ancestors in the 17th century. Second, only a minority of them really believes in all the objectionable content in the Koran and Hadith.

About half of the world’s Muslims want to live in a theocracy. Further, the core tenets of Islam, and the values derived from these core tenets ARE incompatible with Western values. The core values of Islam are misogynistic, anti-semitic, homophobic, anti-secular, and supremacist. Now you might say that not all Muslims support these values, and you’d be correct. But hundreds of millions do, and that IS a real problem.

In his book, ‘THE END OF FAITH - Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason’  -  Sam Harris writes, “While Christianity has few living inquisitors today, Islam has many.  In the next chapter [THE PROBLEM WITH ISLAM] we will see that in our opposition to the worldview of Islam, we confront a civilization with an arrested history.  It is as though a portal in time has opened, and fourteenth-century hordes are pouring into our world.  Unfortunately, they are now armed with twenty-first-century weapons.”

https://ctc.usma.edu/the-islamic-state-and-wmd-assessing-the-future-threat/

quote from this article:  “Abstract: The Islamic State is actively seeking weapons of mass destruction and, to a limited extent, it has used such weapons in Syria and Iraq. It is also actively seeking personnel with technical experience capable of expanding its program. The Islamic State’s program faces many challenges and logistical issues, however, that have tempered their ambitions. This means the group is not yet capable of striking Western nations with WMD, though it cannot be ruled out that the Islamic State could deploy rudimentary chemical devices against the West in the next several years.

(quote continued): “If Muslims cannot defeat the kafir (unbelievers) in a different way, it is permissible to use weapons of mass destruction, even if it kills all of them and wipes them and their descendants off the face of the Earth.”  —Saudi jihadi cleric Nasir al-Fahd.1

On November 19, 2015, a day after French police thwarted a second-wave attack by Islamic State terrorists in Paris, France’s Prime Minister Manuel Valls raised the specter of the Islamic State deploying weapons of mass destruction (WMD) against the West. “I say it with all the precautions needed. But we know and bear in mind that there is also a risk of chemical or bacteriological weapons,” he told the French parliament.2 Australia’s Foreign Minister Julie Bishop had earlier sounded the alarm on chemical weapons in June 2015:”

 

[ Edited: 31 May 2018 10:13 by unsmoked]
 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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31 May 2018 19:30
 

The sky is falling.

 
 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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01 June 2018 12:33
 
bbearren - 31 May 2018 07:30 PM

The sky is falling.

Do you mean this is a false alarm?  Not serious?  ISIS won’t acquire WMD’s?  Or do you mean there’s nothing we can do about it?

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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01 June 2018 21:36
 
unsmoked - 01 June 2018 12:33 PM
bbearren - 31 May 2018 07:30 PM

The sky is falling.

Do you mean this is a false alarm?  Not serious?  ISIS won’t acquire WMD’s?  Or do you mean there’s nothing we can do about it?

I mean that hand-wringing only makes one’s skin raw.

I was a Cold Warrior, in intelligence, with a top secret codeword security clearance.  I know that everything that can be done is being done.  Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair; it gives you something to do, but it doesn’t get you anywhere.

 
 
RoseTylerFan
 
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RoseTylerFan
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02 June 2018 03:22
 

ISIS is almost dead, but there is a possibility another organization will arise and claim the banner of global jihad.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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02 June 2018 06:21
 
bbearren - 01 June 2018 09:36 PM
unsmoked - 01 June 2018 12:33 PM
bbearren - 31 May 2018 07:30 PM

The sky is falling.

Do you mean this is a false alarm?  Not serious?  ISIS won’t acquire WMD’s?  Or do you mean there’s nothing we can do about it?

I mean that hand-wringing only makes one’s skin raw.

I was a Cold Warrior, in intelligence, with a top secret codeword security clearance.  I know that everything that can be done is being done.  Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair; it gives you something to do, but it doesn’t get you anywhere.

Perhaps in certain domains everything that can be done is being done. But in many domains, that’s simply not the case.

 
 
mapadofu
 
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mapadofu
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02 June 2018 06:55
 

Ice, what is the most obvious/egregious specific gap in the US’s efforts to prevent ISIS from getting WMD?  (andcwhat would the improved policy be?)

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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02 June 2018 07:04
 
mapadofu - 02 June 2018 06:55 AM

Ice, what is the most obvious/egregious specific gap in the US’s efforts to prevent ISIS from getting WMD?  (andcwhat would the improved policy be?)

To me the most obvious problem is that “the authorities” all work from the assumption that the short-term financial interests of oligarchs must be preserved at all costs. That assumption causes a domino effect of weird foreign policies and budget expenditures. It could be the case that if we swallow the oligarchy assumption then we’re “doing the best we can”, but I don’t think we ought to use that as our starting point.

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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02 June 2018 08:35
 
icehorse - 02 June 2018 06:21 AM
bbearren - 01 June 2018 09:36 PM
unsmoked - 01 June 2018 12:33 PM
bbearren - 31 May 2018 07:30 PM

The sky is falling.

Do you mean this is a false alarm?  Not serious?  ISIS won’t acquire WMD’s?  Or do you mean there’s nothing we can do about it?

I mean that hand-wringing only makes one’s skin raw.

I was a Cold Warrior, in intelligence, with a top secret codeword security clearance.  I know that everything that can be done is being done.  Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair; it gives you something to do, but it doesn’t get you anywhere.

Perhaps in certain domains everything that can be done is being done. But in many domains, that’s simply not the case.

Those domains to which you refer are the domains that have no real affect, no input on the actual work that is being done.  Those are the “hand-wringing” domains, the “sky is falling” domains.  The intelligence community only follows “policy” on the outside.  That isn’t where the work is actually being done.

Speaking from personal experience, using a newspaper as an analogy, what the public sees are the front page headlines that cover the top half of the page, not the article itself, and none of any lessor headlines.  The upper echelon of governmental agencies see the daily headlines, but not the articles.  The heads of the intelligence agencies see the headlines and the articles, and they put together the editorials for the administration.  For all practical purposes, the rest of the newspaper doesn’t even exist.  The guts of the intelligence community is cocooned in a need-to-know basis which must be very firmly established, and there are a great many cocoons.

I’m sure you’ll disagree, so I’m out, but I’ll leave you with a teaser: see if you can find any information on whether a U2 spy plane crashed into the Black Sea in the mid ‘60’s.

 
 
unsmoked
 
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02 June 2018 09:45
 
bbearren - 01 June 2018 09:36 PM
unsmoked - 01 June 2018 12:33 PM
bbearren - 31 May 2018 07:30 PM

The sky is falling.

Do you mean this is a false alarm?  Not serious?  ISIS won’t acquire WMD’s?  Or do you mean there’s nothing we can do about it?

I mean that hand-wringing only makes one’s skin raw.

I was a Cold Warrior, in intelligence, with a top secret codeword security clearance.  I know that everything that can be done is being done.  Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair; it gives you something to do, but it doesn’t get you anywhere.

We, the general public, are told by the intelligence community to be watchful and report suspicious behavior or suspicious objects.  A pressure cooker sitting beside a garbage bin along a parade route?  A bearded man on a bus clutching a backpack, sweating profusely, while muttering “Allahu Akbar” and rocking back and forth?  Is the government really telling us not to worry?

The May 2, 2018 Geographic has a favorable article about Muslims in America.  While the intelligence community must have ‘observers’ in mosques here and there (there are over 2000 mosques in America), I suspect we depend a great deal on our Muslim neighbors to report jihadist sermons etc., just as we depend on the Christian community to report plans to bomb a Planned Parenthood office, or we depend on white people in general to report a white supremacist plot to murder someone or sabotage property.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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02 June 2018 10:02
 

bb:

I’m sure you’ll disagree, so I’m out, but I’ll leave you with a teaser: see if you can find any information on whether a U2 spy plane crashed into the Black Sea in the mid ‘60’s.

I’m not disagreeing - within a certain context. All I’m saying is that the intelligence community IS working from a context and I’m not convinced that they’ve been handed the best context from which to operate. For example, it seems clear that one aspect of “the context” is that SA is an ally. Well maybe that’s an assumption that ought to be revisited. And they are an ally for financial reasons. Maybe we ought to revisit our larger hierarchy of concerns to see if those financial assumptions are really the ones we ought to be furthering in 2018.

In other words, I think we have to zoom WAY out, get back to real fundamental basics. For example, why do we still subsidize big oil instead of putting that money into renewables R&D? Why do we buy military hardware the generals tell us they don’t need? Why do we ignore the Pentagon when they tell us that climate change is a strategic threat?

It strikes me that the answers to all of those questions get back to the oligarchy, and anyone who isn’t honest about that is - directly or indirectly - in their pockets.

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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02 June 2018 10:10
 
unsmoked - 02 June 2018 09:45 AM
bbearren - 01 June 2018 09:36 PM
unsmoked - 01 June 2018 12:33 PM
bbearren - 31 May 2018 07:30 PM

The sky is falling.

Do you mean this is a false alarm?  Not serious?  ISIS won’t acquire WMD’s?  Or do you mean there’s nothing we can do about it?

I mean that hand-wringing only makes one’s skin raw.

I was a Cold Warrior, in intelligence, with a top secret codeword security clearance.  I know that everything that can be done is being done.  Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair; it gives you something to do, but it doesn’t get you anywhere.

We, the general public, are told by the intelligence community

The intelligence community is not the source.

... to be watchful and report suspicious behavior or suspicious objects.  A pressure cooker sitting beside a garbage bin along a parade route?  A bearded man on a bus clutching a backpack, sweating profusely, while muttering “Allahu Akbar” and rocking back and forth?  Is the government really telling us not to worry?

Surely you are aware of political PR.  If the prevailing assumption of “the general public” is that “everyone is watching”, the government is indeed telling us not to worry, that “we” are part of the solution; not unlike the rocking chair solution.

The May 2, 2018 Geographic has a favorable article about Muslims in America.  While the intelligence community must have ‘observers’ in mosques here and there (there are over 2000 mosques in America), I suspect we depend a great deal on our Muslim neighbors to report jihadist sermons etc., just as we depend on the Christian community to report plans to bomb a Planned Parenthood office, or we depend on white people in general to report a white supremacist plot to murder someone or sabotage property.

I would suggest that there are a number of ‘observers’ for each and every mosque in America.

I’m reasonably sure that you will disagree, so I’m out.  I’ll leave you this to ponder.  Occasionally one will read a report of a foiled terrorist attempt/plot.  That they are publically reported is because they have played out in the public eye (enough witnesses saw/heard).  How many foiled attempts/plots have you not read about, and do you understand why you have not read about them?

 
 
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