1 2 3 >  Last ›
 
   
 

How Should We Handle Illegal Immigrant Children?

 
Quadrewple
 
Avatar
 
 
Quadrewple
Total Posts:  403
Joined  28-04-2017
 
 
 
20 June 2018 00:52
 

Here’s my understanding of the issue and I would like others to weigh in - the topic is illegal immigrant children being detained and separated from the adults they passed over with.

1.  It is a fact that sometimes these children are being trafficked/smuggled and the adults they are crossing the border with are not their parents.

U.S. Placed Immigrant Children With Traffickers, Report Says

“In addition to the Marion cases, the investigation found evidence that 13 other children had been trafficked after officials handed them over to adults who were supposed to care for them during their immigration proceedings. An additional 15 cases exhibited some signs of trafficking.

The report also said that it was unclear how many of the approximately 90,000 children the agency had placed in the past two years fell prey to traffickers, including sex traffickers, because it does not keep track of such cases.”

2.  According to Homeland Security secretary Kirstjen Nielson,  most of the children (just over 80%) who are under the supervision of Health and Human Services (HHS) did NOT cross over with adults who are their legal guardians.

Kirstjen Nielsen Addresses Families Separation at Border: Full Transcript

The vast majority, vast, vast majority of children who are in the care of H.H.S. right now — 10,000 of the 12,000 — were sent here alone by their parents. That is when they were separated. So somehow we’ve conflated everything. But there is two separate issues. 10,000 of those currently in custody were sent by their parents with strangers to undertake a completely dangerous and deadly travel alone.”

So now that I’ve given 2 relevant facts, I have some questions, especially for those who are outraged about our current way of handling illegal immigrant children.

1.  Do you support the US taxpayers funding a greater network of “foster care” for the thousands of illegal immigrant kids who enter the US unsupervised so that they don’t have to be in detainment facilities?  Can you explain your plan for this logistically and how you minimize time in detainment (some level of which seems unavoidable)?

2.  If an adult and child are detained near the border, have no citizenship papers, and the adult claims the child is his - what specifically should be done at that time to both the child and adult (in your opinion)?

3.  What specific laws, if any, should be changed in regards to how we deal with illegal immigrant children?
___________________________________________________________________________________

 

My personal opinion is that when someone enters the country illegally with a child, we have nothing but bad options on the table - the result of a bad (and illegal) decision by the parents and/or whoever crosses the border illegally with that child.

My personal opinion is that we should not pause enforcement of ANY laws for any reason, as was suggested by the reporter in the Nielson press conference - we should enforce the laws on the books and take political action to change any laws which go against our consciences.


No person with empathy likes seeing crying children in photographs.  However, that does not mean when we see these pictures we should abandon all reason and logical argumentation.  What in your opinion specifically needs to change?  Are you advocating non-enforcement of specific laws?  Are you advocating a change in laws?  Putting the law aside, what would be your approach to this situation in an ideal world?

These are all questions which help clarify this issue.

 
 
Twissel
 
Avatar
 
 
Twissel
Total Posts:  2582
Joined  19-01-2015
 
 
 
20 June 2018 01:06
 

following international law would be a start.

 
 
Quadrewple
 
Avatar
 
 
Quadrewple
Total Posts:  403
Joined  28-04-2017
 
 
 
20 June 2018 01:23
 
Twissel - 20 June 2018 01:06 AM

following international law would be a start.

So your answer is non-enforcement of current specific laws and changing specific laws?  Which ones would those be?

 
 
Twissel
 
Avatar
 
 
Twissel
Total Posts:  2582
Joined  19-01-2015
 
 
 
20 June 2018 01:35
 

if the laws contradict international law - of course.
But most of the stuff that is going on is agency policies, not the law.

It is not like this is a new or US-specific issue.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
Avatar
 
 
Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  2623
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
20 June 2018 06:08
 

In regards to the OP title:  “How Should We Handle Illegal Immigrant Children?” ...

For starters, understand and recognize the very fact that young children do not break laws, that the label ‘illegal immigrant children’ makes it too easy to see them as different from our own children.


In regards to the OP statement:  “No person with empathy likes seeing crying children in photographs.  However, that does not mean when we see these pictures we should abandon all reason and logical argumentation.” ...

Yes, in the long-run reason and logic will be needed to find solutions, but now is the time for compassion and outrage.

 
 
LadyJane
 
Avatar
 
 
LadyJane
Total Posts:  3015
Joined  26-03-2013
 
 
 
20 June 2018 06:42
 
Jan_CAN - 20 June 2018 06:08 AM

In regards to the OP title:  “How Should We Handle Illegal Immigrant Children?” ...

For starters, understand and recognize the very fact that young children do not break laws, that the label ‘illegal immigrant children’ makes it too easy to see them as different from our own children.


In regards to the OP statement:  “No person with empathy likes seeing crying children in photographs.  However, that does not mean when we see these pictures we should abandon all reason and logical argumentation.” ...

Yes, in the long-run reason and logic will be needed to find solutions, but now is the time for compassion and outrage.

Yep!  I think everyone should take a knee until they’re all released.

 
 
Quadrewple
 
Avatar
 
 
Quadrewple
Total Posts:  403
Joined  28-04-2017
 
 
 
20 June 2018 09:45
 

I see that no one has answered any of the questions I posed…..very disappointing.

Jan_CAN - 20 June 2018 06:08 AM

For starters, understand and recognize the very fact that young children do not break laws, that the label ‘illegal immigrant children’ makes it too easy to see them as different from our own children.

Anyone who is here illegally is an illegal immigrant, whether they made the decision to come here or not.  I have no interest in playing word games in order to emotionally manipulate the discussion.

Jan_CAN - 20 June 2018 06:08 AM

Yes, in the long-run reason and logic will be needed to find solutions, but now is the time for compassion and outrage.

I understand, but is this the only situation in which you apply that logic?  Couldn’t that be applied to literally any time parents of children break the law?  Why wouldn’t it apply then, but it does apply now?

And seeing as how the whole world basically knows this happens now, isn’t the compassionate thing for parents from Mexico intending to cross illegally with their children to not do so until something changes?  Or are you demanding more compassion from these children from American strangers than you do from their own parents?

It would be nice if you answered the questions I posed, instead of giving vagaries like “Now is the time for compassion and outrage.”  That is a bumper sticker, not an actionable solution.

Twissel - 20 June 2018 01:35 AM

if the laws contradict international law - of course.
But most of the stuff that is going on is agency policies, not the law.

It is not like this is a new or US-specific issue.

If you have the specific knowledge of what you’re talking about, I’m asking you for it…...I’m looking to be informed if what I’m lacking is information.

[ Edited: 20 June 2018 09:51 by Quadrewple]
 
 
Celal
 
Avatar
 
 
Celal
Total Posts:  3114
Joined  07-08-2011
 
 
 
20 June 2018 13:06
 
Quadrewple - 20 June 2018 12:52 AM

Here’s my understanding of the issue and I would like others to weigh in - the topic is illegal immigrant children being detained and separated from the adults they passed over with.

1.  It is a fact that sometimes these children are being trafficked/smuggled and the adults they are crossing the border with are not their parents.

U.S. Placed Immigrant Children With Traffickers, Report Says

“In addition to the Marion cases, the investigation found evidence that 13 other children had been trafficked after officials handed them over to adults who were supposed to care for them during their immigration proceedings. An additional 15 cases exhibited some signs of trafficking.

The report also said that it was unclear how many of the approximately 90,000 children the agency had placed in the past two years fell prey to traffickers, including sex traffickers, because it does not keep track of such cases.”

2.  According to Homeland Security secretary Kirstjen Nielson,  most of the children (just over 80%) who are under the supervision of Health and Human Services (HHS) did NOT cross over with adults who are their legal guardians.

Kirstjen Nielsen Addresses Families Separation at Border: Full Transcript

The vast majority, vast, vast majority of children who are in the care of H.H.S. right now — 10,000 of the 12,000 — were sent here alone by their parents. That is when they were separated. So somehow we’ve conflated everything. But there is two separate issues. 10,000 of those currently in custody were sent by their parents with strangers to undertake a completely dangerous and deadly travel alone.”

So now that I’ve given 2 relevant facts, I have some questions, especially for those who are outraged about our current way of handling illegal immigrant children.

1.  Do you support the US taxpayers funding a greater network of “foster care” for the thousands of illegal immigrant kids who enter the US unsupervised so that they don’t have to be in detainment facilities?  Can you explain your plan for this logistically and how you minimize time in detainment (some level of which seems unavoidable)?

2.  If an adult and child are detained near the border, have no citizenship papers, and the adult claims the child is his - what specifically should be done at that time to both the child and adult (in your opinion)?

3.  What specific laws, if any, should be changed in regards to how we deal with illegal immigrant children?
___________________________________________________________________________________

 

My personal opinion is that when someone enters the country illegally with a child, we have nothing but bad options on the table - the result of a bad (and illegal) decision by the parents and/or whoever crosses the border illegally with that child.

My personal opinion is that we should not pause enforcement of ANY laws for any reason, as was suggested by the reporter in the Nielson press conference - we should enforce the laws on the books and take political action to change any laws which go against our consciences.


No person with empathy likes seeing crying children in photographs.  However, that does not mean when we see these pictures we should abandon all reason and logical argumentation.  What in your opinion specifically needs to change?  Are you advocating non-enforcement of specific laws?  Are you advocating a change in laws?  Putting the law aside, what would be your approach to this situation in an ideal world?

These are all questions which help clarify this issue.

You are asking questions in good faith to have a reasonable discussion.

But if people don’t even believe in the borders, or enforcing the border laws,  how can anyone communicate with the unreasonable?  These people feign outrage about the plight of the illegals remind me of the way Arab Muslim World feign outrage about the Palestinians subjected to Israeli Laws.  Just as the Arab Muslims don’t give a damn about the Palestinian children and use them only as pawns to express hatred towards the Jews; The Liberal Dems use anyone and everyone to express hatred toward Trump.  They have used all their capital exploiting the blacks for decades, recently Muslims, and now the illegals.

 
Celal
 
Avatar
 
 
Celal
Total Posts:  3114
Joined  07-08-2011
 
 
 
20 June 2018 13:17
 

https://www.reuters.com/news/picture/migrant-child-crisis-idUSRTR3UJLN

Obama kept them in cages and wrapped in foils. I find it despicable for anyone using the tragic lives of the unfortunate for manufactured outrage when they didn’t care under Obama or worse yet, covered up.  These people can not be reasoned with.

Image Attachments
 
s1.reutersmedia_.net_.jpg
 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
Avatar
 
 
Cheshire Cat
Total Posts:  1052
Joined  01-11-2014
 
 
 
20 June 2018 13:48
 

Trump just signed an executive order to allow children to stay with parents caught crossing the border illegally.

In other words, he just caved-in to pressure. Plus, the outstanding lies he’s been telling lately about how only congress could stop this, have been put into high relief.

From the Washington Post:

The Trump administration insisted it didn’t have a policy of separating children from their parents at the U.S.-Mexico border. It said that it was merely following the law. And it said “Congress alone can fix” the mess.

It just admitted that all that was nonsense — and that it badly overplayed its hand.

It’s at once an admission that the politics of the issue had gotten out of hand and that the administration’s arguments were completely dishonest. Virtually everything it said about the policy is tossed aside with this executive action. It’s the political equivalent of waving the white flag and the legal equivalent of confessing to making false statements. Rather than letting Congress rebuke it, the White House is rebuking itself and trying to save some face.

https://tinyurl.com/ycvaha6t

Trump’s teflon might be rubbing off finally. 

 

[ Edited: 20 June 2018 16:16 by Cheshire Cat]
 
 
Quadrewple
 
Avatar
 
 
Quadrewple
Total Posts:  403
Joined  28-04-2017
 
 
 
20 June 2018 14:27
 

After seeing the consistent and deliberate refusal of people who are outraged over this to answer basic questions, I have to agree with your assessment Celal.

We even have someone here who basically said “Let’s not think.  Let’s feel.”  Whether they realize it or not, that is exactly the definition of a mob mentality, and they are only putting that forward as a principle in this specific case.  So what they’re really saying is “Let’s not think.  Let’s feel, but only when it’s my issue.”

The parents of these Mexican and South American children are basically treated as children by the anti-Trumpers - no agency for their actions, no responsibility for the plights their children may end up in when they choose to break the law.

It almost seems a bit racist.

But hey, I only posted this thread yesterday - I’m still ready to actually have a discussion about the issue if anyone is capable of it.

[ Edited: 20 June 2018 14:29 by Quadrewple]
 
 
hannahtoo
 
Avatar
 
 
hannahtoo
Total Posts:  6927
Joined  15-05-2009
 
 
 
20 June 2018 17:46
 

I posted on another thread, but I’ll repeat.  What was happening to illegal immigrant families before these recent policy changes?  What sort of impact were they having on the US communities in which they lived?  Most were not dangerous people.  The Obama Admin had put a priority on deporting criminals first and foremost.

So if you’re an illegal immigrant, you don’t have a Social Security Number.  You can’t get a State ID card.  You can’t apply for Medicaid or CHIP for 5 years.  You can’t get most jobs because you don’t have a SSN.  So you’re limited to fringe jobs and emergency medical treatment.  Most jobs are those that citizens are not clambering for, like farm work or other manual labor in the hot sun. Or house cleaning, or processing chickens or seafood.  Yes, your children can go to school and struggle to learn English while they’re learning math and other basics.  Thank goodness.  It is not an easy existence. 

I wish there could be some path to citizenship for people who work hard to make a new life here.  And a guest worker program for those who wish to come only seasonally.  Why doesn’t Congress find a way to help these essential workers be in the US legally?

Incarceration of immigrant families is a policy choice, not an absolute requirement of US laws.  It is inhumane, expensive, and unnecessary.

And BTW, the photo from 2014 was probably of children who entered the US unaccompanied, not children separated from their families at the border.  Still not good.  But not equivalent to what is happening now.  It does highlight, however, that a humanitarian crisis occurs whenever children are separated from their families.  The Obama Admin practiced family detention, but it was very controversial and eventually limited to 20 days.

[ Edited: 20 June 2018 18:07 by hannahtoo]
 
Twissel
 
Avatar
 
 
Twissel
Total Posts:  2582
Joined  19-01-2015
 
 
 
20 June 2018 22:11
 

the Obama administration avoided separating children from parents as much as possible:

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/19/matt-schlapp/no-donald-trumps-separation-immigrant-families-was/

This was a pure Trump decision to scare migrants away. And Trump caved in and paddled back after claiming that only the democrats could do that.

Trump looks weak to his supporters and monstrous to everyone else on this.

 
 
Celal
 
Avatar
 
 
Celal
Total Posts:  3114
Joined  07-08-2011
 
 
 
21 June 2018 06:50
 
Twissel - 20 June 2018 10:11 PM

the Obama administration avoided separating children from parents as much as possible:

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/19/matt-schlapp/no-donald-trumps-separation-immigrant-families-was/

This was a pure Trump decision to scare migrants away. And Trump caved in and paddled back after claiming that only the democrats could do that.

Trump looks weak to his supporters and monstrous to everyone else on this.

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article213525764.html

Yes, Obama separated families at the border, too.  According to Obama Admin officials. 

When you say “This was a pure Trump decision to scare migrants away”, you are even unaware how that statement is manifestly absurd.  When Trump policy is to reinforce the law at the border, it is meant to deter the illegals pouring through the border.  You don’t even make any sense.

But all that aside, the main problem is that the left believes in nothing, no principles, no convictions, no sense of morality. How do I know this? Easy ...

Rallying cry of the left has been the parents and children should “NOT be separated”.  Now that Trump signed the order for family reunification. Next,  the families and children should not be “detained”.  That will be the next headlines. The goal post keeps changing.  Proving the left believes in nothing stable. Except ways in which they can create chaos.

 
hannahtoo
 
Avatar
 
 
hannahtoo
Total Posts:  6927
Joined  15-05-2009
 
 
 
21 June 2018 07:59
 
Celal - 21 June 2018 06:50 AM
Twissel - 20 June 2018 10:11 PM

the Obama administration avoided separating children from parents as much as possible:

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/19/matt-schlapp/no-donald-trumps-separation-immigrant-families-was/

This was a pure Trump decision to scare migrants away. And Trump caved in and paddled back after claiming that only the democrats could do that.

Trump looks weak to his supporters and monstrous to everyone else on this.

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article213525764.html

Yes, Obama separated families at the border, too.  According to Obama Admin officials. 

When you say “This was a pure Trump decision to scare migrants away”, you are even unaware how that statement is manifestly absurd.  When Trump policy is to reinforce the law at the border, it is meant to deter the illegals pouring through the border.  You don’t even make any sense.

But all that aside, the main problem is that the left believes in nothing, no principles, no convictions, no sense of morality. How do I know this? Easy ...

Rallying cry of the left has been the parents and children should “NOT be separated”.  Now that Trump signed the order for family reunification. Next,  the families and children should not be “detained”.  That will be the next headlines. The goal post keeps changing.  Proving the left believes in nothing stable. Except ways in which they can create chaos.

The article cited states that children were separated from fathers sometimes:

Most fathers and children were released together, often times with an ankle bracelet. Fresco said there were cases where the administration held fathers who were carrying drugs or caught with other contraband who had to be separated from their children.

“ICE could not devise a safe way where men and children could be in detention together in one facility,” Fresco said. “It was deemed too much of a security risk.”

This is very different from Trump’s blanket separation policy.

[ Edited: 21 June 2018 08:02 by hannahtoo]
 
Celal
 
Avatar
 
 
Celal
Total Posts:  3114
Joined  07-08-2011
 
 
 
21 June 2018 10:19
 
hannahtoo - 21 June 2018 07:59 AM
Celal - 21 June 2018 06:50 AM
Twissel - 20 June 2018 10:11 PM

the Obama administration avoided separating children from parents as much as possible:

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/19/matt-schlapp/no-donald-trumps-separation-immigrant-families-was/

This was a pure Trump decision to scare migrants away. And Trump caved in and paddled back after claiming that only the democrats could do that.

Trump looks weak to his supporters and monstrous to everyone else on this.

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article213525764.html

Yes, Obama separated families at the border, too.  According to Obama Admin officials. 

When you say “This was a pure Trump decision to scare migrants away”, you are even unaware how that statement is manifestly absurd.  When Trump policy is to reinforce the law at the border, it is meant to deter the illegals pouring through the border.  You don’t even make any sense.

But all that aside, the main problem is that the left believes in nothing, no principles, no convictions, no sense of morality. How do I know this? Easy ...

Rallying cry of the left has been the parents and children should “NOT be separated”.  Now that Trump signed the order for family reunification. Next,  the families and children should not be “detained”.  That will be the next headlines. The goal post keeps changing.  Proving the left believes in nothing stable. Except ways in which they can create chaos.

The article cited states that children were separated from fathers sometimes:

Most fathers and children were released together, often times with an ankle bracelet. Fresco said there were cases where the administration held fathers who were carrying drugs or caught with other contraband who had to be separated from their children.

“ICE could not devise a safe way where men and children could be in detention together in one facility,” Fresco said. “It was deemed too much of a security risk.”

This is very different from Trump’s blanket separation policy.

Yes, different.

But why are Dems encouraging illegal border crossing?  Despicable.

 
 1 2 3 >  Last ›