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Sharia in Sydney Aussie-stralia

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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28 July 2018 13:16
 

Lauren Southern recently attempted to visit Lakemba, a suburb of Sydney, Australia. She went because she’d heard that this suburb had become a Islamic “no-go” zone. When she arrived the cops urged and then more or less demanded that she not walk the streets of Lakemba because criticizing Islam in this community would likely cause violence.

In practice, in this suburb, Islam is not to be criticized. Sounds like Sharia to me:

Lakemba

 
 
LadyJane
 
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28 July 2018 15:08
 

Whether you are a citizen or tourist, resident or foreigner, when a police officer asks you to leave an area you must leave the area.  This was an agenda driven endeavour executed by people already armed with a conclusion.  There was no intention to speak with the locals and learn about their traditions.  The intention was to stir things up so they could get a reaction and claim the reaction they were getting was stifling their free speech.  The leap to Sharia Law is a laughable stretch.  When she explains to the cop she plans on going to the Mosque in order to criticise Islam the cop made a call due to the aggressive nature of her attitude.  Listen again and you can hear the fight picking tone.  A call any police officer, in any town, would’ve made under the circumstances.  In a effort to quell this sort of thing before it escalates.  There was no desire to observe the town and discover what happens there.  They’d already decided that when they planned the trip.  Then they went to act out the script they’d written.  If there is any evidence to support the gist of this thread it certainly wasn’t established in that four and a half minutes.

 
 
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28 July 2018 16:42
 
LadyJane - 28 July 2018 03:08 PM

Whether you are a citizen or tourist, resident or foreigner, when a police officer asks you to leave an area you must leave the area.  This was an agenda driven endeavour executed by people already armed with a conclusion.  There was no intention to speak with the locals and learn about their traditions.  The intention was to stir things up so they could get a reaction and claim the reaction they were getting was stifling their free speech.  The leap to Sharia Law is a laughable stretch.  When she explains to the cop she plans on going to the Mosque in order to criticise Islam the cop made a call due to the aggressive nature of her attitude.  Listen again and you can hear the fight picking tone.  A call any police officer, in any town, would’ve made under the circumstances.  In a effort to quell this sort of thing before it escalates.  There was no desire to observe the town and discover what happens there.  They’d already decided that when they planned the trip.  Then they went to act out the script they’d written.  If there is any evidence to support the gist of this thread it certainly wasn’t established in that four and a half minutes.

So we can criticize an idea only when the authorities tell us we can?

Of course this was a test, a test that the authorities failed. Free speech is MOST important when it’s tested.

 
 
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28 July 2018 16:47
 
LadyJane - 28 July 2018 03:08 PM

Whether you are a citizen or tourist, resident or foreigner, when a police officer asks you to leave an area you must leave the area.  This was an agenda driven endeavour executed by people already armed with a conclusion.  There was no intention to speak with the locals and learn about their traditions.  The intention was to stir things up so they could get a reaction and claim the reaction they were getting was stifling their free speech.  The leap to Sharia Law is a laughable stretch.  When she explains to the cop she plans on going to the Mosque in order to criticise Islam the cop made a call due to the aggressive nature of her attitude.  Listen again and you can hear the fight picking tone.  A call any police officer, in any town, would’ve made under the circumstances.  In a effort to quell this sort of thing before it escalates.  There was no desire to observe the town and discover what happens there.  They’d already decided that when they planned the trip.  Then they went to act out the script they’d written.  If there is any evidence to support the gist of this thread it certainly wasn’t established in that four and a half minutes.

In support and in addition to what LadyJane said above ...

It does indeed appear that this activist was looking for a fight.  According to Wikipedia, she is described as far/alt-right, supported the white identitarian group opposing search-and-rescue missions in the Mediterranean, has demonstrated against LGBTQ rights, has been banned from entering the UK as her presence is “not conducive to the public good”, and more.  The Southern Poverty Law Center has described her videos as anti-feminist, xenophobic, Islamophobic, and borderline white nationalist.

The goal was to provoke a community in order to show them in a negative light, with no concern for the fact that people could get hurt.

 
 
icehorse
 
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28 July 2018 17:55
 
Jan_CAN - 28 July 2018 04:47 PM
LadyJane - 28 July 2018 03:08 PM

Whether you are a citizen or tourist, resident or foreigner, when a police officer asks you to leave an area you must leave the area.  This was an agenda driven endeavour executed by people already armed with a conclusion.  There was no intention to speak with the locals and learn about their traditions.  The intention was to stir things up so they could get a reaction and claim the reaction they were getting was stifling their free speech.  The leap to Sharia Law is a laughable stretch.  When she explains to the cop she plans on going to the Mosque in order to criticise Islam the cop made a call due to the aggressive nature of her attitude.  Listen again and you can hear the fight picking tone.  A call any police officer, in any town, would’ve made under the circumstances.  In a effort to quell this sort of thing before it escalates.  There was no desire to observe the town and discover what happens there.  They’d already decided that when they planned the trip.  Then they went to act out the script they’d written.  If there is any evidence to support the gist of this thread it certainly wasn’t established in that four and a half minutes.

In support and in addition to what LadyJane said above ...

It does indeed appear that this activist was looking for a fight.  According to Wikipedia, she is described as far/alt-right, supported the white identitarian group opposing search-and-rescue missions in the Mediterranean, has demonstrated against LGBTQ rights, has been banned from entering the UK as her presence is “not conducive to the public good”, and more.  The Southern Poverty Law Center has described her videos as anti-feminist, xenophobic, Islamophobic, and borderline white nationalist.

The goal was to provoke a community in order to show them in a negative light, with no concern for the fact that people could get hurt.

Southern is an activist testing free speech.

I would say the truth about Southern is that she is slightly right of classical liberalism. She exposes extreme left, liberal hypocrisy.  Have you listened to her yourself? And, for the sake of debate, let’s say she is far right (which she isn’t), so what? Is free speech only for the left?

The SPLC? really? They also list Maajid Nawaz as islamohobic smile  Sadly, The SPLC has recently become a pawn of extreme-left, SJWs, it seems to have lost its previous credibility.

As for provoking the community, hooray! If a person cannot go into this community and criticize the community’s predominant religion without the threat of violence, then this sort of provocation is needed desperately. It strikes me Jan that you’re the one guilty of bigotry here. It strikes me that you and LJ think that Muslims deserve to play life on “easy mode”. Why is that? Can’t they handle criticism? Are you afraid that they might turn violent if criticized? Do you feel the same way about criticism of Presbyterians?

The thing you have to notice here is that this is not about these Muslims being a put-upon minority. If you go to a Muslim majority country and openly criticize Islam you also risk violence. This is the nature of Islam.

 

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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28 July 2018 18:32
 

I have no interest in continuing a discussion with someone who insults others in order to manipulate the conversation.

 
 
icehorse
 
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28 July 2018 19:27
 
Jan_CAN - 28 July 2018 06:32 PM

I have no interest in continuing a discussion with someone who insults others in order to manipulate the conversation.

The insult being?...

 
 
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29 July 2018 07:14
 

I will say my piece because I think there is a need to challenge misinformation and bigotry.  There is no point in attempting an actual conversation as you consistently twist and manipulate the words of others in an attempt to further your own agenda, which only serves to encourage more of the same.

Those who cannot see what these hate-mongering activists are doing are either blind and/or share their views while attempting to deceive themselves that they are not the ‘bad guys’.  They don’t care about free speech for everyone; they use it as a guise to protect themselves and their goal to spread discrimatory and hateful views.

Free speech is a right and necessity in democratic societies.  However, many democratic societies attempt to balance this right with other rights, i.e. the right of minorities to not be persecuted, and with the need for public safety.  Unlike the U.S. where free speech is considered a predominant right, allowing neo-Nazis to incite hatred and violence (e.g. Charlottetown riots), other countries find this inconsistent with the ‘public good’.  In my opinion, the U.S. is NOT a good example of a country that protects the rights of everyone.

Unlike you, I do not easily or lightly accuse another of bigotry.  However, you consistently display bigotry towards Muslims, pretending that it’s a legitimate criticism of the Islam religion.  If it were legitimate, you would cite facts and examples of Muslims in the west who were practising aspects of their religion inconsistent with western values, and would not imply that all Muslims are the problem.  In the west, intolerance and violence has been predominantly directed at Muslims, not by Muslims.

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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29 July 2018 07:48
 

That was a very clumsy use of the term fer sure.

None of these communities are monolithic. Nor are these faiths.

I’ve sat in a room full of Muslims critizing Islam and we all had a wonderful time (in Dearborn!). Many years ago now, my life and my family have been threatened by a local Christian group.

Norm at the corner party store would start throwing items at customers if they winked at Islam. His brother Fred would run out and haul him off apologetically. Religion interfaces differently depending on how your mind operates.

The notion of being a Muslim is overestimated as a defining parameter. Leadership is always hardcore because it wants to stay in the lead.

 
 
icehorse
 
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29 July 2018 07:59
 
Jan_CAN - 29 July 2018 07:14 AM

I will say my piece because I think there is a need to challenge misinformation and bigotry.  There is no point in attempting an actual conversation as you consistently twist and manipulate the words of others in an attempt to further your own agenda, which only serves to encourage more of the same.

Jan, I have admitted over and over that I have an agenda. SO,  DO,  YOU !! 

To the degree that the things you’re accusing me of are true, they are equally true for you. You come across as though you think your opinions are the “correct” ones, not up for debate, and that anyone with different views is a bad person. You occupy no such lofty position.

We disagree. That’s a good thing. I want you to bring your best arguments. Despite what you might think, I’m here to learn, and I have learned at this forum.

Jan_CAN - 29 July 2018 07:14 AM

Those who cannot see what these hate-mongering activists are doing are either blind and/or share their views while attempting to deceive themselves that they are not the ‘bad guys’.  They don’t care about free speech for everyone; they use it as a guise to protect themselves and their goal to spread discrimatory and hateful views.

There are people who behave the way you describe. There are also people who see some ideas as toxic to human rights and secular society. IMO, western secular society is simply better than Islamic society. I do not believe I have much - if anything - to learn from Islamic societies, except perhaps as examples of cautionary tales. Islam helps to perpetuate misogyny, homophobia, tribalism, anti-semitism and theocracy. Do you love those things? Of course not. We have strong evidence - right in front of our eyeballs - that allowing mass immigration of unreformed Muslims into secular society is a bad idea. Look no further than Europe to find all the evidence you need. Canada and Australia have not yet been eroded to the same degree as Europe, but if no action is taken it’s reasonable to speculate that it’s only a matter of decades. And the US is not far behind them.

This is about defending what we value.

Jan_CAN - 29 July 2018 07:14 AM

Free speech is a right and necessity in democratic societies.  However, many democratic societies attempt to balance this right with other rights, i.e. the right of minorities to not be persecuted, and with the need for public safety.  Unlike the U.S. where free speech is considered a predominant right, allowing neo-Nazis to incite hatred and violence (e.g. Charlottetown riots), other countries find this inconsistent with the ‘public good’.  In my opinion, the U.S. is NOT a good example of a country that protects the rights of everyone.

“Rights” are to a large degree a zero-sum game. When you grant rights to some, you are encroaching on the rights of others, so you must be very careful when considering handing out new rights. I think we can use this discussion as an example. Some people want to help minorities from being discriminated against, which is all well and good, but notice that in order to do that we need to curtail free speech. Not a good bargain.

Jan_CAN - 29 July 2018 07:14 AM

Unlike you, I do not easily or lightly accuse another of bigotry.  However, you consistently display bigotry towards Muslims, pretending that it’s a legitimate criticism of the Islam religion.  If it were legitimate, you would cite facts and examples of Muslims in the west who were practising aspects of their religion inconsistent with western values, and would not imply that all Muslims are the problem.

How long since you’ve looked up the definition of bigotry? Here it is:

bigotry: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

I would guess that you are bigoted towards misogynists, correct? And towards homophobes and racists and so on?

Yes, I am intolerant of those who seek to perpetuate Islam. I do not like the opinions that Islam engenders.

Jan_CAN - 29 July 2018 07:14 AM

In the west, intolerance and violence has been predominantly directed at Muslims, not by Muslims.

Again, do a little googling concerning who’s being most intolerant in Europe. There continue to be MASSIVE Islamic grooming gangs in Europe. Do you understand what that means? Literally thousands of young girls being gang raped over and over again. The Quran is very clear that this behavior is fine and dandy. You think there is no connection between the behavior an what the revered scripture says? I would say that if you think so, you’re making an extraordinary claim.

In recent polls, large percentages (around 50%), of Muslims in Europe want Sharia to become the law of the land.

Jan, I would really like to understand your values hierarchy. From what I read in your posts, it would seem that you value “not persecuting minorities” more than you value human rights. Is that correct? Now of course, we would probably both prefer it if we could have both. But the reality is that these particular “minorities” bring with them anti-human-rights values. Why would you want to bring people with these values into your society? Can you name a Muslim majority country in the world that you think has a society anywhere near as good as Canada’s? What evidence do you have that large populations of Muslims are benign in a secular society? All of the evidence leans in the opposite direction.

 
 
icehorse
 
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29 July 2018 08:09
 
Nhoj Morley - 29 July 2018 07:48 AM

That was a very clumsy use of the term fer sure.

None of these communities are monolithic. Nor are these faiths.

I’ve sat in a room full of Muslims critizing Islam and we all had a wonderful time (in Dearborn!). Many years ago now, my life and my family have been threatened by a local Christian group.

Norm at the corner party store would start throwing items at customers if they winked at Islam. His brother Fred would run out and haul him off apologetically. Religion interfaces differently depending on how your mind operates.

The notion of being a Muslim is overestimated as a defining parameter. Leadership is always hardcore because it wants to stay in the lead.

Can you name a place with a truly large Muslim population that you think has a society anywhere near as good as western secular societies? Dearborn doesn’t count, it’s too tiny. Have you been following what’s happening in the UK and across Europe in terms of the mass immigration of Muslims? Of course you can find anecdotes of individual successes, because as you say things are not monolithic. But overall the results of this mass immigration experiment are bad. In Europe, Muslim immigrants are TENDING (not monolithically), to fail to assimilate, to live on the dole, and to spread misogyny, homophobia, and anti-semitism. This is not a racist claim, these results are entirely predictable if you see the world through the eyes of the Quran.

 
 
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29 July 2018 08:54
 
icehorse - 29 July 2018 08:09 AM

Can you name a place with a truly large Muslim population that you think has a society anywhere near as good as western secular societies? … This is not a racist claim, these results are entirely predictable if you see the world through the eyes of the Quran.

If that is a historical question, than yes. I don’t differ with you over what is plain to see. Making something of all that is dicey and should be assembled with care. I’m sure we agree that any racially based explanation would be easy to take apart.

Do your bookish inclinations steer you to see this through the eyes of the quran (to use your irresistible phrase)? Justifying that starting perspective is still a bit of a hole in your case. Why is it the central parameter? I see the same plain perceptions through trioon eyes and would argue that what matters is their narrative ability and not which bs they imbibe. The Quran does nothing to promote or encourage personal narration, which the Bible does, but there are many for those in Islamic societies to become competent narrators.

Better societies are built from better narrators in greater proportions of the population. Weak and untrained narrators are vulnerable to religious explanations and challenged by the demands of those better societies.

That might seem as gibberish or disagreeable but the point is, there are plenty of other paths to take with this that don’t qualify as bigotry. Characterize responses with care. Norm might hit an innocent bystander.

 
 
icehorse
 
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29 July 2018 09:11
 
Nhoj Morley - 29 July 2018 08:54 AM
icehorse - 29 July 2018 08:09 AM

Can you name a place with a truly large Muslim population that you think has a society anywhere near as good as western secular societies? … This is not a racist claim, these results are entirely predictable if you see the world through the eyes of the Quran.

If that is a historical question, than yes. I don’t differ with you over what is plain to see. Making something of all that is dicey and should be assembled with care. I’m sure we agree that any racially based explanation would be easy to take apart.

Agreed, racism has nothing to do with criticism of Islam.

Nhoj Morley - 29 July 2018 08:54 AM

Do your bookish inclinations steer you to see this through the eyes of the quran (to use your irresistible phrase)? Justifying that starting perspective is still a bit of a hole in your case. Why is it the central parameter? I see the same plain perceptions through trioon eyes and would argue that what matters is their narrative ability and not which bs they imbibe. The Quran does nothing to promote or encourage personal narration, which the Bible does, but there are many for those in Islamic societies to become competent narrators.

I wouldn’t characterize it as the “central parameter”, it was just another bit of evidence to throw on the pile. But I don’t think we can discount the significance of the Quran in how Muslims actually live. Over the centuries, Muslims have tirelessly defended this book from change. I think it’s safe to say that the Quran is a major “flywheel” in Islam. It helps maintain consistency across generations. We also have a lot of evidence that shows how passionately Muslims defend this book and their prophet. In the west we can and do criticize all other religions mercilessly (hooray!). But we have been forced to pull our punches when it comes to Islam, and the obvious reason is because Muslims get violent when their sacred cows get ridiculed (mixed metaphor intended?). E.g., there is no chance that we could take the broadway play “book of Morman” and repurpose it to satirize Islam.

Nhoj Morley - 29 July 2018 08:54 AM

Better societies are built from better narrators in greater proportions of the population. Weak and untrained narrators are vulnerable to religious explanations and challenged by the demands of those better societies.

That might seem as gibberish or disagreeable but the point is, there are plenty of other paths to take with this that don’t qualify as bigotry. Characterize responses with care. Norm might hit an innocent bystander.

When you say “better narrators” do you mean more effective in conveying the old stories, or that their stories have been modernized?

 
 
burt
 
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29 July 2018 09:26
 

The question is how you would respond if a Muslim cleric came to your town and started preaching.
https://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/who-is-america-sacha-baron-cohen-634761

 
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29 July 2018 11:12
 
Nhoj Morley - 29 July 2018 08:54 AM

That might seem as gibberish or disagreeable but the point is, there are plenty of other paths to take with this that don’t qualify as bigotry. Characterize responses with care. Norm might hit an innocent bystander.

On the subject of bigotry ...

If an ex-Catholic or ex-Mormon has been persecuted by her religion and comes out with intense criticism of her religion, she is hailed and embraced as a hero. Leah Remini who escaped Scientology has her own TV show and a best selling book.  But if there is an ex Muslim comes out and says she believes in gender equality, free speech and secularism, suddenly there is a mass confusion.

When Europeans challenged their own religion it was called “enlightenment” and we all benefited from it.  When non-Europeans want to do the same it is called “Islamophobia”.

That is the real bigotry!

 
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29 July 2018 12:15
 
icehorse - 29 July 2018 09:11 AM

  …we have been forced to pull our punches when it comes to Islam, and the obvious reason is because Muslims get violent when their sacred cows get ridiculed (mixed metaphor intended?). E.g., there is no chance that we could take the broadway play “book of Morman” and repurpose it to satirize Islam.

(Sorry, long break for reality)
I’m saying that is a real good reason to pull those punches. Not to quash yer speech, but so moms can drive their children to school without street riots. The punches are pointless and counterproductive (for reasons describes in my unknown journey thread). I don’t believe as most including The Boss do, that this is a battle of info. The best info won’t win. It cannot. For some minds, radical Islam is The Best Info because of the nature of their brain operations. They are different from yours and mine.

When you say “better narrators” do you mean more effective in conveying the old stories, or that their stories have been modernized?

Neither. Better narrators make their own story that is informed, shaped and guided by the old stories. The untrained do not have this option. The will be consumed by the story and think from within it. We do that to, sort of, but we are the primary authors of ours. Others are denied of this privilege and it becomes a considerable struggle to get there without the help that we got. .

The story does not have to change. The change comes from the manner in which the story is consumed. If this country went trioon, then a demonstration of competent narrative ability would determine immigration status.

We face a war over perception and not info. Promotion of autonomous critical thinking for everybody is the fix and on that we might agree. We would differ on why. It is the trioon factor.

Dearborn doesn’t count, it’s too tiny.

Wow. Obviously, you’ve never driven to the airport.

 
 
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