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"Race"

 
Skipshot
 
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Skipshot
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25 August 2018 13:56
 

Petra, perhaps you do not understand Americans’ problem with race very well.  I am on your side and agree that race is a fabrication to divide men, however Americans still have a huge hang-up with race which goes back to the founding of the country, but pretend they do not.  They have not had the conversation which Germans have had, which is the point of my post. Americans need to have a serious discussion about their hang-up.  Our football players are trying to get the conversation going, and so is Black Lives Matter, but white Americans see these efforts as uppity negroes who have forgotten their place and are disrespecting the American military.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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25 August 2018 19:17
 
Skipshot - 25 August 2018 01:56 PM

Petra, perhaps you do not understand Americans’ problem with race very well.  I am on your side and agree that race is a fabrication to divide men, however Americans still have a huge hang-up with race which goes back to the founding of the country, but pretend they do not.  They have not had the conversation which Germans have had, which is the point of my post. Americans need to have a serious discussion about their hang-up.  Our football players are trying to get the conversation going, and so is Black Lives Matter, but white Americans see these efforts as uppity negroes who have forgotten their place and are disrespecting the American military.

Sure, America has race issues, but so does everyone else (including Germany), but it is not as black and white as you make it out to be.

As for Germany, they went to the extreme with racial purity backed up by laws, it was a disaster, and now they gone to the extreme on the other end with laws trying outlaw race altogether, it will fail because that is not how people think and draconian laws can’t change that and thus ALWAYS fail eventually.

 
 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
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26 August 2018 07:38
 
Petra - 24 August 2018 12:09 PM

Hi there and Sam,
I live in Switzerland, born in Germany and I already questioned Richard Dawkins on my Galapagos cruise about that.
We in German do not separate races within the human RACE. The word has been deleted in our taxonomy. We just use it for domesticated animals.
Whereas racism is only existing as a crime.
I think that using this word over and over as a scientist and intellectual is dangerous, influencing and by NLP increasing the problems. Richard says race in humans is a slight genetic variation…, OK: but then use this words: SGV, ethnics, whatever. Taxonomy is clear: homo sapiens sapiens.
I saw your controversial podcast about research of ‘race’ differences, which we here in Europe would never do, because it is not of any added value. You can research all characteristics (2nd toe is longer than the first, brown/ blond hair, brown/ blue eyes, size etc etc) to make statistical statements, without any evidence left.

Please stop using the word race to separate human race!

I agree with your desired outcome. I think organizing community concerns on the basis of race is backward for a variety of reasons. What I’m unsure of is the utility of simply disavowing and discontinuing a word as a strategy. Race is a meaningful category because culture as deemed it so… even if for bad reasons. In many parts of the world ‘races’ face unique structural injustices. I struggle to understand how we might effectively confront bigotry without naming the errors that it rests upon. I’m all ears though. I would love to live in that world.

 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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26 August 2018 15:16
 
GAD - 25 August 2018 07:17 PM
Skipshot - 25 August 2018 01:56 PM

Petra, perhaps you do not understand Americans’ problem with race very well.  I am on your side and agree that race is a fabrication to divide men, however Americans still have a huge hang-up with race which goes back to the founding of the country, but pretend they do not.  They have not had the conversation which Germans have had, which is the point of my post. Americans need to have a serious discussion about their hang-up.  Our football players are trying to get the conversation going, and so is Black Lives Matter, but white Americans see these efforts as uppity negroes who have forgotten their place and are disrespecting the American military.

Sure, America has race issues, but so does everyone else (including Germany), but it is not as black and white as you make it out to be.

As for Germany, they went to the extreme with racial purity backed up by laws, it was a disaster, and now they gone to the extreme on the other end with laws trying outlaw race altogether, it will fail because that is not how people think and draconian laws can’t change that and thus ALWAYS fail eventually.

The laws don’t tell the entire story though. The laws take forever to change how people behave. They may never change how they think. And someone can discriminate within the law constantly.

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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26 August 2018 15:28
 
 
 
ubique13
 
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ubique13
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26 August 2018 16:00
 
bbearren - 26 August 2018 03:28 PM

In Georgia, 40 miles northeast of Atlanta, Buford schools chief resigns after racist rant; furor grows to ensnare longtime city leader.

Racism in Georgia is such low-hanging fruit that Sacha Baron Cohen actually got a Congressional representative to resign after his appearance on ‘Who Is America?’. oh oh

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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26 August 2018 20:19
 
 
 
ubique13
 
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ubique13
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27 August 2018 05:38
 
Jb8989 - 26 August 2018 03:16 PM
GAD - 25 August 2018 07:17 PM
Skipshot - 25 August 2018 01:56 PM

Petra, perhaps you do not understand Americans’ problem with race very well.  I am on your side and agree that race is a fabrication to divide men, however Americans still have a huge hang-up with race which goes back to the founding of the country, but pretend they do not.  They have not had the conversation which Germans have had, which is the point of my post. Americans need to have a serious discussion about their hang-up.  Our football players are trying to get the conversation going, and so is Black Lives Matter, but white Americans see these efforts as uppity negroes who have forgotten their place and are disrespecting the American military.

Sure, America has race issues, but so does everyone else (including Germany), but it is not as black and white as you make it out to be.

As for Germany, they went to the extreme with racial purity backed up by laws, it was a disaster, and now they gone to the extreme on the other end with laws trying outlaw race altogether, it will fail because that is not how people think and draconian laws can’t change that and thus ALWAYS fail eventually.

The laws don’t tell the entire story though. The laws take forever to change how people behave. They may never change how they think. And someone can discriminate within the law constantly.

Jb has a point. Robert Moses wasn’t even an elected official, and his legacy of racism significantly shaped New York.

bbearren - 26 August 2018 08:19 PM
ubique13 - 26 August 2018 04:00 PM
bbearren - 26 August 2018 03:28 PM

In Georgia, 40 miles northeast of Atlanta, Buford schools chief resigns after racist rant; furor grows to ensnare longtime city leader.

Racism in Georgia is such low-hanging fruit that Sacha Baron Cohen actually got a Congressional representative to resign after his appearance on ‘Who Is America?’. oh oh

Low-hanging fruit all over the country:

Florida State Senator Resigns After Using Racial Slur in Tirade

Miami judge who used an obscure racial slur resigns from the bench

Official in Flint Who Used a Racial Slur Against Black Residents Resigns

Fire Chief Resigns After Using Racial Slur Against Steelers Coach

Publisher of California weekly newspaper resigns over use of racial slur

Longtime NFL broadcaster, a TCU grad, forced to resign after using racial slur

Netflix Communications Chief Fired Over Use of Racial Slur

President of Santa Clara County sheriffs union resigns over racist text scandal

Teacher resigns after hurling racial slur over Tupac song

Touche.

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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27 August 2018 07:02
 

Unfortunately, these events show what some white people really think.  It would be nice to think that everyone buys into “we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal…”, it’s not really so in their minds. Racism seems hard-wired in much of our populace.

 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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27 August 2018 10:04
 
EN - 27 August 2018 07:02 AM

Unfortunately, these events show what some white people really think.

There’s no stories when regular people think or say racist things. The stories come about when said person is in a decision making position. Then we all assume this is who they are at their core even if their careers and behaviors say otherwise. It’s an easy scapegoat, even if it is sometimes true, but I still imagine that the vast majority of racism isn’t happening in political and judicial settings. I don’t buy into the idea that each system is laced with unseen racism.

 
 
ubique13
 
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ubique13
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27 August 2018 10:22
 
Jb8989 - 27 August 2018 10:04 AM
EN - 27 August 2018 07:02 AM

Unfortunately, these events show what some white people really think.

There’s no stories when regular people think or say racist things. The stories come about when said person is in a decision making position. Then we all assume this is who they are at their core even if their careers and behaviors say otherwise. It’s an easy scapegoat, even if it is sometimes true, but I still imagine that the vast majority of racism isn’t happening in political and judicial settings. I don’t buy into the idea that each system is laced with unseen racism.

(Added my own emphasis on that last bit)

As you will never see objective or empirical data which will ever suggest anything to the contrary, I can promise you based on my anecdotal experience in central booking, court, and working in a law firm, that these systems were pretty much all constructed to have racist foundations. Believe it or don’t; it’s completely immaterial.

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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27 August 2018 10:47
 
ubique13 - 27 August 2018 10:22 AM
Jb8989 - 27 August 2018 10:04 AM
EN - 27 August 2018 07:02 AM

Unfortunately, these events show what some white people really think.

There’s no stories when regular people think or say racist things. The stories come about when said person is in a decision making position. Then we all assume this is who they are at their core even if their careers and behaviors say otherwise. It’s an easy scapegoat, even if it is sometimes true, but I still imagine that the vast majority of racism isn’t happening in political and judicial settings. I don’t buy into the idea that each system is laced with unseen racism.

These systems were pretty much all constructed to have racist foundations

How so?

 
 
ubique13
 
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ubique13
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27 August 2018 11:08
 
Jb8989 - 27 August 2018 10:47 AM
ubique13 - 27 August 2018 10:22 AM
Jb8989 - 27 August 2018 10:04 AM
EN - 27 August 2018 07:02 AM

Unfortunately, these events show what some white people really think.

There’s no stories when regular people think or say racist things. The stories come about when said person is in a decision making position. Then we all assume this is who they are at their core even if their careers and behaviors say otherwise. It’s an easy scapegoat, even if it is sometimes true, but I still imagine that the vast majority of racism isn’t happening in political and judicial settings. I don’t buy into the idea that each system is laced with unseen racism.

These systems were pretty much all constructed to have racist foundations

How so?

Robert Moses is a decent example of an unelected public official doing extraordinary amounts of damage. I suspect New York isn’t the only city to have a “master builder” like him.

Then there’s the entire prison system (formerly known as penitentiaries), which exists based on the faulty premise of penitence and retributive ‘justice’. There have been some very recent headlines about prisoners speaking out demanding basic human rights, and denouncing work that is tantamount to slave labor. None of these conditions are new, of course, but they are finally starting to attract attention.

And if you’re not already aware of how bad the systemic racism is in the country’s major metropolitan areas, then there’s nothing that I can ever say to make you think otherwise. You think white people get stopped arbitrarily by cops much while walking around minding their business? Only in areas known for having a substantial drug trade.

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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27 August 2018 11:25
 
Jb8989 - 27 August 2018 10:04 AM

There’s no stories when regular people think or say racist things. The stories come about when said person is in a decision making position. Then we all assume this is who they are at their core even if their careers and behaviors say otherwise. It’s an easy scapegoat, even if it is sometimes true, but I still imagine that the vast majority of racism isn’t happening in political and judicial settings. I don’t buy into the idea that each system is laced with unseen racism.

You can’t buy into it, it isn’t for sale.  Whether or not it exists doesn’t depend on your acceptance of its existence.

There are a great many “untold” stories no less realistic than those which make the news, but people like me hear them or about them every day.

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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27 August 2018 11:56
 
ubique13 - 27 August 2018 11:08 AM
Jb8989 - 27 August 2018 10:47 AM
ubique13 - 27 August 2018 10:22 AM
Jb8989 - 27 August 2018 10:04 AM
EN - 27 August 2018 07:02 AM

Unfortunately, these events show what some white people really think.

There’s no stories when regular people think or say racist things. The stories come about when said person is in a decision making position. Then we all assume this is who they are at their core even if their careers and behaviors say otherwise. It’s an easy scapegoat, even if it is sometimes true, but I still imagine that the vast majority of racism isn’t happening in political and judicial settings. I don’t buy into the idea that each system is laced with unseen racism.

These systems were pretty much all constructed to have racist foundations

How so?

Robert Moses is a decent example of an unelected public official doing extraordinary amounts of damage. I suspect New York isn’t the only city to have a “master builder” like him.

Then there’s the entire prison system (formerly known as penitentiaries), which exists based on the faulty premise of penitence and retributive ‘justice’. There have been some very recent headlines about prisoners speaking out demanding basic human rights, and denouncing work that is tantamount to slave labor. None of these conditions are new, of course, but they are finally starting to attract attention.

And if you’re not already aware of how bad the systemic racism is in the country’s major metropolitan areas, then there’s nothing that I can ever say to make you think otherwise. You think white people get stopped arbitrarily by cops much while walking around minding their business? Only in areas known for having a substantial drug trade.

Question: What do Robert Moses, the Prison Plantation Theory and the Criminal Code of Reasonable Suspicion all have in common?

Answer: It’s a lot more than blanket systemic racism.

 
 
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