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Satan gave man love. Was it worth the hate?

 
Greatest I am
 
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Greatest I am
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18 September 2018 10:24
 
Poldano - 17 September 2018 02:19 AM
GAD - 15 September 2018 09:25 AM
Greatest I am - 15 September 2018 06:14 AM
GAD - 14 September 2018 06:54 AM

Satan rules and Yahweh drools.

Yes but is that a good thing?

Regards
DL

Better to be a slave to my own desires then a slave to god.

Some gods are personifications of desires. Making desires out to be gods was a way to avoid personal responsibility, in one sense.

Good point as shown by Christians making Jesus into their scapegoat and abdicating their responsibility while the bible precisely forbids it and would have been what Jesus taught.

Regards
DL

 
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18 September 2018 10:37
 
hannahtoo - 17 September 2018 03:27 PM
Greatest I am - 16 September 2018 07:42 PM
hannahtoo - 15 September 2018 02:21 PM
Greatest I am - 15 September 2018 06:14 AM
hannahtoo - 14 September 2018 06:44 AM

I am speaking metaphorically here. 

The story says that the tree of the apple gave “knowledge of good and evil.”  I’d argue that Adam and Eve could love or hate before they could judge whether these emotions were good or evil.  Same with people today.

Perhaps true, but how would they know which was better to do, love or hate, before partaking of the knowledge of good and evil?

To them, hate would have the same value as love since they did not know of either.

Regards
DL

I’m not quibbling with which emotion is better to follow.  But I’m arguing that the Bible doesn’t support your OP.  That is, Satan did not give man love, God did.

If we really want to get into it, there are different kinds of love in the Bible.  This has been explicated extensively.  The English translations show obvious differences.

1Tim 6:10   ...for the love of money is the root of all kinds of evils.

Matt 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.  (Jesus is hearkening back to Deuteronomy, which has the wording slightly different.)

Anyway, you’d have to define love before we could talk about the whys and wherefores.  Interesting that loving God is actually a commandment.

If I have to define love and hate, you are not worth my time.

To exercise free will and choose good instead of evil—or love over hate, one must know what good and evil and love and hate are. Right?

God denied that knowledge and thus denied A & E free will and the knowledge of love and how to love.

The bible does support this view and that is likely why Christians call Adams sin a happy fault and necessary for god’s plan.

Regards
DL

OK, sorry to be pedantic about definitions.  I’ll assume we’re on the same page on those.  That we are speaking of love in its positive aspects, not obsession nor jealous passion.

This story, I’m sure you’ll agree, is the ultimate allegory with so many possible layers of meaning.  And it is interpreted so many ways.  It’s always been my Bible favorite for that reason.

Yes, God commanded Adam not to eat from the tree of Knowledge, or he would die.  However, this is a bit misleading because later the Bible says Adam and Eve need to be excluded from the Garden, since if they stayed, they might eat from the tree of Eternal Life.  This would not be an issue unless they were already able to die.  So the implication is that they were created mortal.  God did sorta make it sound like they’d die right away from tasting the tree of knowledge, like from poison.  Confusing.  Especially since so many interpretations claim that their disobedience introduced death into the world.

In any case, since God is supposed to have created everything and know everything there is to know, this whole episode would have be seen as a set up, that is, a learning experience for A and E.  In this sense, I don’t think we can credit the serpent with giving man love.  God made Satan. God made the rules. God knew what Satan would do.  He knew what A and E would do.  They gained self-awareness. They learned they were prone to being disobedient and that negative consequences follow misbehavior.  They also learned that not everyone (or every creature) is trustworthy.  At this stage, there was no means for them to atone, just shame.

You show the serpent, Satan as god’s pawns, which they were of course, but do not give these Character in god’s play the credit for playing their parts well. Tsk tsk.

It is indeed a layered play but it is a Jewish play and they see it more as I do. A coming of age yarn with a god thrown in to take some credit for man’s accomplishments.

That is Why they see it as where we were elevated and not where we fell.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

One last thing. See A & E’s death as murder by neglect. Somewhat like a J W not giving blood/tree of life and murdering their child by neglect.

Regards
DL

 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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18 September 2018 13:18
 

Well, you and I disagree on many facets of A and E, but we agree it is a “coming of age story.”  I was brought up Jewish, and understood it this way.  Besides a c-o-a theme, it also illustrates our humanity, distinguished from the rest of the animal kingdom, which is not plagued by issues of morality.

 
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18 September 2018 16:50
 
hannahtoo - 18 September 2018 01:18 PM

Well, you and I disagree on many facets of A and E, but we agree it is a “coming of age story.”  I was brought up Jewish, and understood it this way.  Besides a c-o-a theme, it also illustrates our humanity, distinguished from the rest of the animal kingdom, which is not plagued by issues of morality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUwdlENVcYg

Regards
DL

 
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