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Why can’t Muslims criticize Islam

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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19 September 2018 08:56
 
icehorse - 19 September 2018 08:36 AM
hannahtoo - 18 September 2018 03:44 PM

Currently 38% of Americans believe in Creationist view (not just Christians).  That is at an all-time low, yet it is a whole lot of people!  And the same percentage believe that humans evolved, but God guided the process.  (Stats according to Gallup.)  So it’s not just “a few” that have been influencing education, etc.

Can you provide a reference for the claim that half the Muslims in UK want to change the government to Sharia law?

On your first point, I would say that relatively few IDers are the noisemakers that have made 1/3 of our high school biology teachers stop teaching evolution. And they stop teaching evolution because it’s just not worth the hassle to deal with this small group of ID extremists.

On the second point, I googled: “uk muslims support for sharia” and got a bunch of hits, here are the first few:

secularism.org

guardian

nytimes

Note from the NY Times article posted above:

“The Muslim Council of Britain, a leading Muslim umbrella group, rejected the poll results, which it said contradicted the findings of earlier studies. One of its leaders, Miqdaad Versi, argued that the survey used the views of a “fringe minority” to smear a large and diverse population.”
...
“Channel 4 said the poll was conducted through face-to-face interviews with 1,081 adults, but only in areas where Muslims made up at least one-fifth of the population. As a result, nearly half of British Muslims were not eligible to be included in the sample, according to ICM Unlimited.”


Caution should be taken not to base too much opinion on polls alone, especially on one particular poll with a low number of respondents.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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19 September 2018 09:02
 
Jan_CAN - 19 September 2018 08:56 AM
icehorse - 19 September 2018 08:36 AM
hannahtoo - 18 September 2018 03:44 PM

Currently 38% of Americans believe in Creationist view (not just Christians).  That is at an all-time low, yet it is a whole lot of people!  And the same percentage believe that humans evolved, but God guided the process.  (Stats according to Gallup.)  So it’s not just “a few” that have been influencing education, etc.

Can you provide a reference for the claim that half the Muslims in UK want to change the government to Sharia law?

On your first point, I would say that relatively few IDers are the noisemakers that have made 1/3 of our high school biology teachers stop teaching evolution. And they stop teaching evolution because it’s just not worth the hassle to deal with this small group of ID extremists.

On the second point, I googled: “uk muslims support for sharia” and got a bunch of hits, here are the first few:

secularism.org

guardian

nytimes

Note from the NY Times article posted above:

“The Muslim Council of Britain, a leading Muslim umbrella group, rejected the poll results, which it said contradicted the findings of earlier studies. One of its leaders, Miqdaad Versi, argued that the survey used the views of a “fringe minority” to smear a large and diverse population.”
...
“Channel 4 said the poll was conducted through face-to-face interviews with 1,081 adults, but only in areas where Muslims made up at least one-fifth of the population. As a result, nearly half of British Muslims were not eligible to be included in the sample, according to ICM Unlimited.”


Caution should be taken not to base too much opinion on polls alone, especially on one particular poll with a low number of respondents.

They always say it is “fringe minority” as a defense no matter what the data says until they are powerful enough to say it is the will of the group.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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19 September 2018 09:32
 
GAD - 19 September 2018 09:02 AM
Jan_CAN - 19 September 2018 08:56 AM

Caution should be taken not to base too much opinion on polls alone, especially on one particular poll with a low number of respondents.

They always say it is “fringe minority” as a defense no matter what the data says until they are powerful enough to say it is the will of the group.

Such polls can be used to create fear and distrust, and as justification for prejudice against an entire group of people.  What would be considered as unacceptable propaganda if done against any other group, has become all too common place when directed towards Muslims.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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19 September 2018 09:34
 

Jan:

Caution should be taken not to base too much opinion on polls alone, especially on one particular poll with a low number of respondents.

No doubt, this is a difficult situation to triangulate. And no doubt, if you have a stance, you can find support for your stance. It doesn’t make me happy to think that Islam is a horrible set of ideas, including the idea that Islam thinks it should rule the world. I’d much rather that Islam didn’t exist. But it does. So here are a collection of thoughts and data points that factor into my conclusions about Islam:

- There is no Muslim majority country in the world that strikes me as a place I’d like to live.
- There is no Muslim majority country in the world that’s a safe place for women.
- There is no Muslim majority country in the world that substantially contributes to the arts, or science, or literature, or music or education. Minor contributions here and there, no doubt.
- There are no (or perhaps vanishingly few), Muslim majority enclaves / neighborhoods in the west that break the patterns listed above.
- Muslims are almost entirely responsible for importing FGM to the west.
- Muslim men are responsible for an extremely high statistical percentage of the rapes in Europe.
- Muslims in Europe are “on the dole” in much higher percentages than average.
- We don’t hear much about how Sikh’s or Hindu’s are a problem in the west. So it’s not about “racism”, and of course Muslims aren’t a race, but people often say Muslims are maligned “because they’re usually brown skinned”.
- The core tenets of Islam are consistent with the problems we see in the world. It’s natural and logical and parsimonious to think that Muslims actually believe what their scripture says. Imagine that.
- We have seen horrible / violent attempts by Muslims to impose blasphemy sensibilities onto the west. I know of no other “religion” with this sort of track record.

And on and on and on.

IMO, what people believe impacts how they behave. (This claim is often controversial, which strikes me as baffling.) Islam boils down to a set of ideas, and it’s simply a bad set of ideas. There are other sets of bad ideas, Islam is just one, but the problem is that Islam has 1.7 billion adherents.

I remain open to hearing what Islam’s “good ideas” are. I have asked this question many, many times and have never gotten a compelling answer. I have heard things like “Islam promotes charity”. That’s hardly unique. What else ya got?

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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19 September 2018 09:44
 

And of course, there is a HUGE difference between disliking that which a person cannot change and disliking what a person CHOOSES to believe. In other words disliking Islam is not at all like being sexist or homophobic or racist.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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19 September 2018 11:16
 
icehorse - 19 September 2018 09:34 AM

No doubt, this is a difficult situation to triangulate. And no doubt, if you have a stance, you can find support for your stance. It doesn’t make me happy to think that Islam is a horrible set of ideas, including the idea that Islam thinks it should rule the world. I’d much rather that Islam didn’t exist. But it does. So here are a collection of thoughts and data points that factor into my conclusions about Islam:
...
IMO, what people believe impacts how they behave. (This claim is often controversial, which strikes me as baffling.) Islam boils down to a set of ideas, and it’s simply a bad set of ideas. There are other sets of bad ideas, Islam is just one, but the problem is that Islam has 1.7 billion adherents.

I remain open to hearing what Islam’s “good ideas” are. I have asked this question many, many times and have never gotten a compelling answer. I have heard things like “Islam promotes charity”. That’s hardly unique. What else ya got?

There’s no doubt that certain aspects of Islam as practised by some of its followers are based on “bad ideas”.  I would prefer that we were evolved to the point where there were no longer ANY deist religions, especially with any influence on laws and politics.

You say that “what people believe impacts how they behave”; although this sounds reasonable, it is not that simple.  People can believe all kinds of strange things and still be decent people.

It can be a struggle to separate concerns about Islam from all Muslims, but it is a struggle that must be made.  We must find a way to fight those “bad ideas” of Islam without maligning Muslims themselves, while still regarding everyone, without making exceptions, as our fellows.

[ Edited: 19 September 2018 20:17 by Jan_CAN]
 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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19 September 2018 13:17
 
icehorse - 19 September 2018 08:36 AM
hannahtoo - 18 September 2018 03:44 PM

Currently 38% of Americans believe in Creationist view (not just Christians).  That is at an all-time low, yet it is a whole lot of people!  And the same percentage believe that humans evolved, but God guided the process.  (Stats according to Gallup.)  So it’s not just “a few” that have been influencing education, etc.

Can you provide a reference for the claim that half the Muslims in UK want to change the government to Sharia law?

On your first point, I would say that relatively few IDers are the noisemakers that have made 1/3 of our high school biology teachers stop teaching evolution. And they stop teaching evolution because it’s just not worth the hassle to deal with this small group of ID extremists.

On the second point, I googled: “uk muslims support for sharia” and got a bunch of hits, here are the first few:

secularism.org

guardian

nytimes

From the articles cited:

Just over half of British Muslims said they wanted to “fully integrate” (53%), and 37% said they wanted to integrate “on most things” with what Policy Exchange described as “separation in some areas, such as schooling and laws.” 6% sought a “separate Islamic life as far as possible” and 1% wanted a “‘fully separate Islamic area in Britain, subject to Sharia Law and government”.

I’d say this is not so different from other religious groups.  For example, there are Catholics who prefer to send their children to Catholic schools.  There are Mormons who prefer to live in predominantly Mormon towns in Utah and attend college at BYU.  Some sects of Mennonites form communities reminiscent of the the 19th century.  Etc. 

My point is that it is not unusual for religions to have separatist populations, nor to try to wield political influence. 

As for not teaching evolution, the stats I found said 13% if high school science teachers advocate creationism. 
https://www.livescience.com/11656-13-biology-teachers-advocate-creationism-class.html

While this is concerning to me (I was a bio major in college), I realize this does not come from a small minority of Creationists.  As I noted before, quite a large percentage of Americans believe in Creationism.  Actually, it’s kind of amazing to me that only 13% promote the Biblical literalism

 

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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19 September 2018 16:18
 

hannah:

I’d say this is not so different from other religious groups.  For example, there are Catholics who prefer to send their children to Catholic schools.  There are Mormons who prefer to live in predominantly Mormon towns in Utah and attend college at BYU.  Some sects of Mennonites form communities reminiscent of the the 19th century.  Etc.

I’d say these are somewhat apples and oranges comparisons. For most other religions, supporting secularism has become compatible. It is a cognitive stretch for a Muslim to support secular society is the very notion is in direct opposition to core Islamic thought. If Islam had gone through a reform this would be less of an issue, but Islam declares itself to be perfect and without need for reform, so reform is coming painfully slowly to Islam. It’s way behind on the reform curve.

hannah:

As for not teaching evolution, the stats I found said 13% if high school science teachers advocate creationism.

This might be true, but this claim is independent of my claim which had to do with biology teachers - regardless of personal believe - just giving up trying to teach evolution. The point is that a few noisy IDers are wagging the dog, and making life miserable for thousands of biology teachers.

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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19 September 2018 17:11
 
icehorse - 19 September 2018 04:18 PM

hannah:

I’d say this is not so different from other religious groups.  For example, there are Catholics who prefer to send their children to Catholic schools.  There are Mormons who prefer to live in predominantly Mormon towns in Utah and attend college at BYU.  Some sects of Mennonites form communities reminiscent of the the 19th century.  Etc.

I’d say these are somewhat apples and oranges comparisons. For most other religions, supporting secularism has become compatible. It is a cognitive stretch for a Muslim to support secular society is the very notion is in direct opposition to core Islamic thought. If Islam had gone through a reform this would be less of an issue, but Islam declares itself to be perfect and without need for reform, so reform is coming painfully slowly to Islam. It’s way behind on the reform curve.

hannah:

As for not teaching evolution, the stats I found said 13% if high school science teachers advocate creationism.

This might be true, but this claim is independent of my claim which had to do with biology teachers - regardless of personal believe - just giving up trying to teach evolution. The point is that a few noisy IDers are wagging the dog, and making life miserable for thousands of biology teachers.

Point 1:  Some Muslims claim Islam is perfect.  Others declare themselves to be secular Muslims.  As I keep saying in so many different ways, we shouldn’t paint every Muslim with the same broad brush.  Nor every Catholic; nor every Mormon.  Etc!  At least you admit that reform in Muslim communities is happening, albeit slowly.

Point 2:  It’s not a few IDers.  To repeat, 38% of Americans believe the Creationist view.  Though the number is on the decline, that’s 10’s of millions of adults.  The percent of bio teachers who promote ID is a much, much smaller percent, so yay, evolution is actually winning!  Yes frustrating for many teachers right now.  I went through that, both in my school teaching and working as a park naturalist.  I was pretty jazzed that, this week, I got a Christian friend to move from, “They shouldn’t teach evolution as a fact,” to “I don’t really know much science; I’d like to look into that.”

We so easily slip into tribalism.  But in 2018, the only valid tribe is humanity.  It’s a conscious choice, not the default setting of our brains.

But now we’re back to arguing about whether or not Muslims can be integrated into American and European culture.  The original OP was asking why Muslims can’t criticize Islam.  It’s clear that they can, especially if they are specific about their criticism and it appeals to general humanitarianism.  Muslims women criticize FGM around the world.  And everyone else agrees with them.

[ Edited: 19 September 2018 17:15 by hannahtoo]
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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19 September 2018 19:58
 
hannahtoo - 19 September 2018 05:11 PM

...
We so easily slip into tribalism.  But in 2018, the only valid tribe is humanity.  It’s a conscious choice, not the default setting of our brains.

But now we’re back to arguing about whether or not Muslims can be integrated into American and European culture.  The original OP was asking why Muslims can’t criticize Islam.  It’s clear that they can, especially if they are specific about their criticism and it appeals to general humanitarianism.  Muslims women criticize FGM around the world.  And everyone else agrees with them.

Exactly, I agree.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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20 September 2018 10:32
 

hannah:

Point 1:  Some Muslims claim Islam is perfect.  Others declare themselves to be secular Muslims.  As I keep saying in so many different ways, we shouldn’t paint every Muslim with the same broad brush.  Nor every Catholic; nor every Mormon.  Etc!  At least you admit that reform in Muslim communities is happening, albeit slowly.

I totally agree that we should not paint every Muslim with the same brush. I thought I was clear on that point. The point I feel you keep missing is that a significant percentage of the world’s Muslims (perhaps half?), want to have Sharia be at least a part of the mix, and that same sort of percentage of Sharia-advocates appears to be true of Muslims in the UK. It seems to me that it’s completely reasonable to discuss the idea that half the world’s Muslims want to live in a theocracy and theocracy is antithetical to secularism. That doesn’t feel like too broad a brush. Do you think it is?

hannah:

Point 2:  It’s not a few IDers.  To repeat, 38% of Americans believe the Creationist view.  Though the number is on the decline, that’s 10’s of millions of adults.  The percent of bio teachers who promote ID is a much, much smaller percent, so yay, evolution is actually winning!  Yes frustrating for many teachers right now.  I went through that, both in my school teaching and working as a park naturalist.  I was pretty jazzed that, this week, I got a Christian friend to move from, “They shouldn’t teach evolution as a fact,” to “I don’t really know much science; I’d like to look into that.”

The distinction I’m trying to make here is that - of the 38% you mention - it’s a small handful of those who are the noise-makers who are in effect warping how biology is taught in this country. We are NOT seeing millions of creationist protestors rioting on the streets. Instead we are seeing a handful of rabble rousers harassing biology teachers. This is an example of the broader point that in general a handful of rabble rousers can cause a lot of disruption. Make sense?

hannah:

We so easily slip into tribalism.  But in 2018, the only valid tribe is humanity.  It’s a conscious choice, not the default setting of our brains.

But now we’re back to arguing about whether or not Muslims can be integrated into American and European culture.  The original OP was asking why Muslims can’t criticize Islam.  It’s clear that they can, especially if they are specific about their criticism and it appeals to general humanitarianism.  Muslims women criticize FGM around the world.  And everyone else agrees with them.

You seem to be ignorant of the nature of the ideology you’re defending. Islam is arguably the most tribalistic of all of the world’s major religions.

When we’re talking about large trends, it’s NEVER black and white. The OP was NOT claiming that 100% of the time, Muslims cannot criticize Islam. I really can’t imagine you thought that was the claim i was making. From that perspective, when you cite a few examples of Muslims criticizing Islam, it doesn’t really address the bigger point. In any large sample size, there will be outlying data points. To me, the harder question is to ask, what percentage of the time are critics being shut down. I have cited a few specific examples of such censorship, but again those COULD be outliers. To me, free speech is one of those areas where we should NOT budge an inch. Free speech is not a topic we should compromise on. From that perspective, EVERY example of censorship is important.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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20 September 2018 11:32
 

Exactly when was Majid Rafizadeh prevented from being critical of islam?

 
 
icehorse
 
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20 September 2018 11:41
 
Jefe - 20 September 2018 11:32 AM

Exactly when was Majid Rafizadeh prevented from being critical of islam?

The OP gave a sort of executive summary. If you want more details, I would direct you to read the article the OP linked to.

 
 
Jefe
 
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20 September 2018 11:47
 
icehorse - 20 September 2018 11:41 AM
Jefe - 20 September 2018 11:32 AM

Exactly when was Majid Rafizadeh prevented from being critical of islam?

The OP gave a sort of executive summary. If you want more details, I would direct you to read the article the OP linked to.

Read it.  Didn’t see any prevention of criticism in there.
He did mention some reactionary push-back, but not any prevention.

 
 
icehorse
 
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20 September 2018 12:57
 
Jan_CAN - 19 September 2018 07:58 PM
hannahtoo - 19 September 2018 05:11 PM

...
We so easily slip into tribalism.  But in 2018, the only valid tribe is humanity.  It’s a conscious choice, not the default setting of our brains.

But now we’re back to arguing about whether or not Muslims can be integrated into American and European culture.  The original OP was asking why Muslims can’t criticize Islam.  It’s clear that they can, especially if they are specific about their criticism and it appeals to general humanitarianism.  Muslims women criticize FGM around the world.  And everyone else agrees with them.

Exactly, I agree.

THE OIC does not agree with them, and it’s the biggest block in the UN.

 
 
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