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Why can’t Muslims criticize Islam

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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21 September 2018 16:05
 

How about gaining a sense of humor?

Muslims freak out over “draw Muhammad” contests. How about jokes that start with “Three Muslims walk into a bar…”. How about Muslims in a sit-com? South Park’s creators got death threats when they tried to poke a little fun at Jesus and Muhammad at the same time.

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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21 September 2018 16:52
 
icehorse - 21 September 2018 04:05 PM

How about gaining a sense of humor?

Muslims freak out over “draw Muhammad” contests. How about jokes that start with “Three Muslims walk into a bar…”. How about Muslims in a sit-com? South Park’s creators got death threats when they tried to poke a little fun at Jesus and Muhammad at the same time.

So no Muslims have a sense of humor?  I can definitely see taking offense.  But a fatwa is way overboard, agreed.  Laws against menacing or murder definitely apply.  I’m advocating enforcing limits on behavior, not thoughts.  And on talking about thorny issues without casting aspersions on people who are being good neighbors, for their safety.

[ Edited: 21 September 2018 16:58 by hannahtoo]
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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22 September 2018 07:51
 
hannahtoo - 21 September 2018 04:52 PM
icehorse - 21 September 2018 04:05 PM

How about gaining a sense of humor?

Muslims freak out over “draw Muhammad” contests. How about jokes that start with “Three Muslims walk into a bar…”. How about Muslims in a sit-com? South Park’s creators got death threats when they tried to poke a little fun at Jesus and Muhammad at the same time.

So no Muslims have a sense of humor?  I can definitely see taking offense.  But a fatwa is way overboard, agreed.  Laws against menacing or murder definitely apply.  I’m advocating enforcing limits on behavior, not thoughts.  And on talking about thorny issues without casting aspersions on people who are being good neighbors, for their safety.

Do you think that the friendly Muslim neighbors you’re describing are unaware that they’re supporting a totalitarian ideology that’s misogynistic, homophobic, anti-semitic, tribalistic and theocratic? Are they unaware that the tenets of their ideology are in direct opposition to the secular society they live in?

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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22 September 2018 15:01
 
icehorse - 22 September 2018 07:51 AM
hannahtoo - 21 September 2018 04:52 PM
icehorse - 21 September 2018 04:05 PM

How about gaining a sense of humor?

Muslims freak out over “draw Muhammad” contests. How about jokes that start with “Three Muslims walk into a bar…”. How about Muslims in a sit-com? South Park’s creators got death threats when they tried to poke a little fun at Jesus and Muhammad at the same time.

So no Muslims have a sense of humor?  I can definitely see taking offense.  But a fatwa is way overboard, agreed.  Laws against menacing or murder definitely apply.  I’m advocating enforcing limits on behavior, not thoughts.  And on talking about thorny issues without casting aspersions on people who are being good neighbors, for their safety.

Do you think that the friendly Muslim neighbors you’re describing are unaware that they’re supporting a totalitarian ideology that’s misogynistic, homophobic, anti-semitic, tribalistic and theocratic? Are they unaware that the tenets of their ideology are in direct opposition to the secular society they live in?

I don’t assume everyone sees being Muslim as just one unified way of thinking.  For example, some people describe themselves as “culturally Muslim.”  This is defined as secular, religiously unobservant or irreligious individuals who still identify with Muslim culture due to family background, personal experiences or the social and cultural environment in which they grew up.

Check out more about this point of view in this interesting article, written by a cultural Muslim who has criticized the Muslim faith and runs the forum Debating Islam:
https://newhumanist.org.uk/articles/4145/whats-a-cultural-muslim

 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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24 September 2018 11:02
 
icehorse - 22 September 2018 07:51 AM

Do you think that the friendly Muslim neighbors you’re describing are unaware that they’re supporting a totalitarian ideology that’s misogynistic, homophobic, anti-semitic, tribalistic and theocratic? Are they unaware that the tenets of their ideology are in direct opposition to the secular society they live in?


If I might butt in, this is an example of the context undermining the debate.

I’ll bet my lunch money that the friendly Muslim neighbors are aware that they are not supporting a totalitarian ideology that’s misogynistic, homophobic, anti-Semitic, tribalistic and theocratic if that is not the Islam they choose to follow. They acknowledge a connection but believe they can save the faith from the misguided.

Likewise, what about Evangelical Christians who cannot criticize or Trumpies who cannot criticize or any faith with a hardcore base. Some in these groups can criticize. The more trenchant question is, regardless of the form of ideology, what do all these people who are above critique have in common? And those of faith who support discussion and criticism- what do they all have in common?

It appears that any holy text or political position can appeal and be serviceable to both types of people. And that one has already taken one form or the other before or regardless of taking on a faith or ideology.

If certain kinds of Muslim can criticize their faith, then why can’t other certain Muslims criticize it as well? I don’t think it has much to do with the reading material. I think the clues suggest that it is all about two kinds of people.

That puts me, like other participants, lightyears from your context and premise, so we cannot debate the point as served. Islam itself is more flexible than its adherents. Something else is at work.

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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24 September 2018 11:10
 
Nhoj Morley - 24 September 2018 11:02 AM
icehorse - 22 September 2018 07:51 AM

Do you think that the friendly Muslim neighbors you’re describing are unaware that they’re supporting a totalitarian ideology that’s misogynistic, homophobic, anti-semitic, tribalistic and theocratic? Are they unaware that the tenets of their ideology are in direct opposition to the secular society they live in?

If I might butt in, this is an example of the context undermining the debate.

I’ll bet my lunch money that the friendly Muslim neighbors are aware that they are not supporting a totalitarian ideology that’s misogynistic, homophobic, anti-Semitic, tribalistic and theocratic if that is not the Islam they choose to follow. They acknowledge a connection but believe they can save the faith from the misguided.

Likewise, what about Evangelical Christians who cannot criticize or Trumpies who cannot criticize or any faith with a hardcore base. Some in these groups can criticize. The more trenchant question is, regardless of the form of ideology, what do all these people who are above critique have in common? And those of faith who support discussion and criticism- what do they all have in common?

It appears that any holy text or political position can appeal and be serviceable to both types of people. And that one has already taken one form or the other before or regardless of taking on a faith or ideology.

If certain kinds of Muslim can criticize their faith, then why can’t other certain Muslims criticize it as well? I don’t think it has much to do with the reading material. I think the clues suggest that it is all about two kinds of people.

That puts me, like other participants, lightyears from your context and premise, so we cannot debate the point as served. Islam itself is more flexible than its adherents. Something else is at work.

Indeed.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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24 September 2018 11:38
 

Nhoj:

That puts me, like other participants, lightyears from your context and premise, so we cannot debate the point as served. Islam itself is more flexible than its adherents. Something else is at work.

I’m interpreting your post as introducing the trioon perspective, is that largely correct? From previous conversations, I think you know that I think trioonity has merit. I think it’s a useful additional perspective to add to the current conversation, but I don’t think that it has to be an either / or. Do you?

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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24 September 2018 22:47
 
icehorse - 24 September 2018 11:38 AM

I’m interpreting your post as introducing the trioon perspective, is that largely correct? From previous conversations, I think you know that I think trioonity has merit. I think it’s a useful additional perspective to add to the current conversation, but I don’t think that it has to be an either / or. Do you?


No. We landed the trioon discussion before on the ‘useful addition’ point. Another time.

But not here. There are many alternative factors of which trioon may or not be one. Your first volley cast Islam as the most influencing factor. I say a person is already primed to be one kind of Muslim or another. The same goes for all the faiths. If we believe that none of these religions have any actual supernatural power or agency, then whacked-out religious devotion is something that our brains can do. Why?

Your own survival of reading the Koran should make the point. Why aren’t you nuts?

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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25 September 2018 08:09
 
Nhoj Morley - 24 September 2018 10:47 PM
icehorse - 24 September 2018 11:38 AM

I’m interpreting your post as introducing the trioon perspective, is that largely correct? From previous conversations, I think you know that I think trioonity has merit. I think it’s a useful additional perspective to add to the current conversation, but I don’t think that it has to be an either / or. Do you?


No. We landed the trioon discussion before on the ‘useful addition’ point. Another time.

But not here. There are many alternative factors of which trioon may or not be one. Your first volley cast Islam as the most influencing factor. I say a person is already primed to be one kind of Muslim or another. The same goes for all the faiths. If we believe that none of these religions have any actual supernatural power or agency, then whacked-out religious devotion is something that our brains can do. Why?

Your own survival of reading the Koran should make the point. Why aren’t you nuts?

Hmmm. I just realized that I’ve always assumed that the trioon categories were mostly the product of nurture not nature. Did I get that wrong?

As far as “the most influencing factor”, well I didn’t mean to communicate that. Let me take another whack at this:

IMO most religions have somehow come to understand that they need to indoctrinate small children to keep the old flywheel spinning from generation to generation. The closest thing to a “constant” across the generations is the religion’s scripture. Therefore, the characteristics of a given religion’s scripture has to play a significant role in the indoctrinated child’s worldview. Correct so far?

As far as I know, the Quran is the most tribalistic of all the major religions’ scripture. There are in the neighborhood of 500 instances of bashing non-Muslims (nMs) in the book. nMs are dirty, lazy, liars. nMs should not be befriended. Allah hates nMs a LOT, and this is coming from a god who is “most merciful”, we hear endlessly.

So we have young children who are told that Islam is perfect and unalterable. They are indoctrinated. And then they are asked to fit into a society that runs counter to their indoctrination. It’s like their trying to compete in track and field events while carrying heavy anchors. There simply IS cognitive dissonance for Muslims in the west.

And to answer your question, I’m not compelled by the Quran because I was indoctrinated to be curious and question authority smile

 

 

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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25 September 2018 08:17
 
icehorse - 25 September 2018 08:09 AM

smile

You are aware that Allah and the God of the Jews is the same god, are you not?

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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25 September 2018 08:22
 
bbearren - 25 September 2018 08:17 AM
icehorse - 25 September 2018 08:09 AM

smile

You are aware that Allah and the God of the Jews is the same god, are you not?

I am aware that that’s Muslim’s claim. Your point is…?

Because what the Quran says - over and over and over - is that the Christians and the Jews “went astray” from Allah. (In fact, that point is embedded in the five-times-a-day prayer that half the world’s Muslim recite.)

So the “daily dose” drives home the point that AFA Allah is concerned, Jews, Christians and all other non-Muslims are to be reviled.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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25 September 2018 08:23
 
bbearren - 25 September 2018 08:17 AM
icehorse - 25 September 2018 08:09 AM

smile

You are aware that Allah and the God of the Jews is the same god, are you not?

Not according to my sister, I tried it explain it to her, but no way, no how, are they the same god, their god is false and evil.

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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25 September 2018 08:43
 
icehorse - 25 September 2018 08:22 AM
bbearren - 25 September 2018 08:17 AM
icehorse - 25 September 2018 08:09 AM

smile

You are aware that Allah and the God of the Jews is the same god, are you not?

I am aware that that’s Muslim’s claim. Your point is…?

It is Islam’s claim.  Muslims and Jews are descendants of Abraham.  The Torah is considered sacred scripture.  Jesus is a revered prophet, second only to Mohammad.

One main point is that your understanding of Islam is your understanding of Islam.  That doesn’t make your understanding Islam.  Islam is not a singular religion, much like Christianity is not a singular religion.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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25 September 2018 09:04
 
bbearren - 25 September 2018 08:43 AM
icehorse - 25 September 2018 08:22 AM
bbearren - 25 September 2018 08:17 AM
icehorse - 25 September 2018 08:09 AM

smile

You are aware that Allah and the God of the Jews is the same god, are you not?

I am aware that that’s Muslim’s claim. Your point is…?

It is Islam’s claim.  Muslims and Jews are descendants of Abraham.  The Torah is considered sacred scripture.  Jesus is a revered prophet, second only to Mohammad.

One main point is that your understanding of Islam is your understanding of Islam.  That doesn’t make your understanding Islam.  Islam is not a singular religion, much like Christianity is not a singular religion.

I already understood everything you have said about the details of Islam. Including the idea that it’s not a singular religion. But there ARE a few constants which every Muslim must at least pay lip service to. And it’s those constants I’m talking about.

(And, as an aside, you’re probably aware that there is NO central authority in Islam. Hence 1400 years of sectarian bloodshed. I could set up shop as an Imam, and (given my charisma and good looks), establish quite a following. And if I did so, there would be no way in Islam for other Imams to dispute my expertise.)

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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25 September 2018 09:25
 
icehorse - 25 September 2018 09:04 AM
bbearren - 25 September 2018 08:43 AM
icehorse - 25 September 2018 08:22 AM
bbearren - 25 September 2018 08:17 AM
icehorse - 25 September 2018 08:09 AM

smile

You are aware that Allah and the God of the Jews is the same god, are you not?

I am aware that that’s Muslim’s claim. Your point is…?

It is Islam’s claim.  Muslims and Jews are descendants of Abraham.  The Torah is considered sacred scripture.  Jesus is a revered prophet, second only to Mohammad.

One main point is that your understanding of Islam is your understanding of Islam.  That doesn’t make your understanding Islam.  Islam is not a singular religion, much like Christianity is not a singular religion.

But there ARE a few constants which every Muslim must at least pay lip service to. And it’s those constants I’m talking about.

“Those constants” are your Islam, and that’s what I’m talking about.  “Every Muslim” would include those Muslims with whom I am personally acquainted, who, by some strange happenstance, don’t pay even lip service to your constants.  Their Islam is not your Islam.

Your ‘absolute Islam’ is rather sieve-like in a number of ways, but your ‘islamophobia’ seems as tight as a drum.

 
 
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