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Why can’t Muslims criticize Islam

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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25 September 2018 09:35
 
bbearren - 25 September 2018 09:25 AM
icehorse - 25 September 2018 09:04 AM
bbearren - 25 September 2018 08:43 AM
icehorse - 25 September 2018 08:22 AM
bbearren - 25 September 2018 08:17 AM
icehorse - 25 September 2018 08:09 AM

smile

You are aware that Allah and the God of the Jews is the same god, are you not?

I am aware that that’s Muslim’s claim. Your point is…?

It is Islam’s claim.  Muslims and Jews are descendants of Abraham.  The Torah is considered sacred scripture.  Jesus is a revered prophet, second only to Mohammad.

One main point is that your understanding of Islam is your understanding of Islam.  That doesn’t make your understanding Islam.  Islam is not a singular religion, much like Christianity is not a singular religion.

But there ARE a few constants which every Muslim must at least pay lip service to. And it’s those constants I’m talking about.

“Those constants” are your Islam, and that’s what I’m talking about.  “Every Muslim” would include those Muslims with whom I am personally acquainted, who, by some strange happenstance, don’t pay even lip service to your constants.  Their Islam is not your Islam.

Your ‘absolute Islam’ is rather sieve-like in a number of ways, but your ‘islamophobia’ seems as tight as a drum.

We’re talking about huge populations. Of course very little will be true 100% of the time. My claims are statistical (as I’m sure you know), so for you to isolate a handful of outlier data points in an ocean of data proves nothing, unless you really think I’m making black and white claims. If there is any confusion on that point, let me allay your doubts. Whenever we’re discussing Islam or Christianity or Muslims or Christians or Democrats or Republicans or any large group, I will always be making statistical claims.

I have no doubt that there are a handful of Muslims who would not support the following:

- The Quran is perfect and timeless
- Muhammad was the perfect role model.

But the percentage of Muslims that would openly deny those two ideas is tiny.

As the boss has put it, you seem to be playing “hide the ball”. You cannot have it both ways. If you are an apologist, you have to commit to something you’re defending.

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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25 September 2018 10:08
 
icehorse - 25 September 2018 09:35 AM

We’re talking about huge populations. Of course very little will be true 100% of the time. My claims are statistical (as I’m sure you know), so for you to isolate a handful of outlier data points in an ocean of data proves nothing, unless you really think I’m making black and white claims. If there is any confusion on that point, let me allay your doubts. Whenever we’re discussing Islam or Christianity or Muslims or Christians or Democrats or Republicans or any large group, I will always be making statistical claims.

Your claims of “every” are not statistical, as I’m sure you know.

I have no doubt that there are a handful of Muslims who would not support the following:

- The Quran is perfect and timeless
- Muhammad was the perfect role model.

But the percentage of Muslims that would openly deny those two ideas is tiny.

And that rules out “every”.

As the boss has put it, you seem to be playing “hide the ball”. You cannot have it both ways. If you are an apologist, you have to commit to something you’re defending.

As I have said a number of times, I’m here for my own reasons.  “The boss” is not my boss; I follow the forum quidelines.  What am I defending?

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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25 September 2018 10:18
 

bb:

Your claims of “every” are not statistical, as I’m sure you know.

I would agree that I’m guilty of trying to introduce a little conversational shorthand. Perhaps that’s not possible. So you are correct, I never really mean “every”. If I had said “vast majority” instead, would that claim have stood up in your opinion?

 
 
bbearren
 
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25 September 2018 12:33
 
icehorse - 25 September 2018 10:18 AM

bb:

Your claims of “every” are not statistical, as I’m sure you know.

I would agree that I’m guilty of trying to introduce a little conversational shorthand. Perhaps that’s not possible. So you are correct, I never really mean “every”. If I had said “vast majority” instead, would that claim have stood up in your opinion?

“Half” is a vast majority?

icehorse - 25 September 2018 08:22 AM

Because what the Quran says - over and over and over - is that the Christians and the Jews “went astray” from Allah. (In fact, that point is embedded in the five-times-a-day prayer that half the world’s Muslim recite.)

So the “daily dose” drives home the point that AFA Allah is concerned, Jews, Christians and all other non-Muslims are to be reviled.

So the half of the world’s Muslims who don’t get the “daily dose” might not necessarily revile Jews, Christians and all other non-Muslims.  That wouldn’t be a “vast majority”, either.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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25 September 2018 13:08
 
bbearren - 25 September 2018 12:33 PM
icehorse - 25 September 2018 10:18 AM

bb:

Your claims of “every” are not statistical, as I’m sure you know.

I would agree that I’m guilty of trying to introduce a little conversational shorthand. Perhaps that’s not possible. So you are correct, I never really mean “every”. If I had said “vast majority” instead, would that claim have stood up in your opinion?

“Half” is a vast majority?

icehorse - 25 September 2018 08:22 AM

Because what the Quran says - over and over and over - is that the Christians and the Jews “went astray” from Allah. (In fact, that point is embedded in the five-times-a-day prayer that half the world’s Muslim recite.)

So the “daily dose” drives home the point that AFA Allah is concerned, Jews, Christians and all other non-Muslims are to be reviled.

So the half of the world’s Muslims who don’t get the “daily dose” might not necessarily revile Jews, Christians and all other non-Muslims.  That wouldn’t be a “vast majority”, either.

ha ha. Well if we made a Venn diagram of the subsets I would say that you don’t have to be one of the 50% that pray daily to be in the group that had the Quran pounded into your head at an early age. But I have to say I feel you’re picking at nits that aren’t that important. For example, i would be very comfortable saying that even if ONLY 800 million Muslims hate non-Muslims out of hand, we still have a big problem, no?

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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25 September 2018 14:15
 
icehorse - 25 September 2018 01:08 PM
bbearren - 25 September 2018 12:33 PM
icehorse - 25 September 2018 10:18 AM

bb:

Your claims of “every” are not statistical, as I’m sure you know.

I would agree that I’m guilty of trying to introduce a little conversational shorthand. Perhaps that’s not possible. So you are correct, I never really mean “every”. If I had said “vast majority” instead, would that claim have stood up in your opinion?

“Half” is a vast majority?

icehorse - 25 September 2018 08:22 AM

Because what the Quran says - over and over and over - is that the Christians and the Jews “went astray” from Allah. (In fact, that point is embedded in the five-times-a-day prayer that half the world’s Muslim recite.)

So the “daily dose” drives home the point that AFA Allah is concerned, Jews, Christians and all other non-Muslims are to be reviled.

So the half of the world’s Muslims who don’t get the “daily dose” might not necessarily revile Jews, Christians and all other non-Muslims.  That wouldn’t be a “vast majority”, either.

ha ha. Well if we made a Venn diagram of the subsets I would say that you don’t have to be one of the 50% that pray daily to be in the group that had the Quran pounded into your head at an early age. But I have to say I feel you’re picking at nits that aren’t that important. For example, i would be very comfortable saying that even if ONLY 800 million Muslims hate non-Muslims out of hand, we still have a big problem, no?

No.  I have no more of a problem with that than I do with a Southern Baptist telling me I’m going to hell.

Again, your ‘absolute Islam’ is rather sieve-like in a number of ways, but your ‘islamophobia’ seems as tight as a drum.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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25 September 2018 14:51
 

bb:

No.  I have no more of a problem with that than I do with a Southern Baptist telling me I’m going to hell.

Does the Baptist also believe that you’re a liar and not to be befriended out of hand? If so, then I’m equally concerned with the Baptist. Regardless, your argument seems to fall into the “two wrongs make it right” category?

bb:

Again, your ‘absolute Islam’ is rather sieve-like in a number of ways, but your ‘islamophobia’ seems as tight as a drum.

I don’t understand what you mean by “absolute Islam”? Are you referring to the two beliefs I claimed were fundamental?

Can you give me your definition of “islamophobia”?

 
 
bbearren
 
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25 September 2018 16:52
 
icehorse - 25 September 2018 02:51 PM

bb:

No.  I have no more of a problem with that than I do with a Southern Baptist telling me I’m going to hell.

Does the Baptist also believe that you’re a liar and not to be befriended out of hand?

Some do.  On the other hand, I lived in Turkey for a year and a half in the mid ‘60’s, and not once did I meet a Muslim who was not gracious and welcoming.  I was invited to be a houseguest, and accepted readily.  I was invited to visit a number of mosques, and did indeed visit a couple.  The Blue Mosque is quite beautiful.  The local mosque in Yalova was picturesque, as was the mosque in Iznik.  In the small towns if one visited a shop and made a purchase, it was typical for the shop keeper to send for chai from a cart on the street corner; the transaction was completed over a cup of chai.

In addition to buses, there were taxis that ran a bus-like route and schedule, called dolmus, and one piled in with as many passengers as would fit, men, women and children.  It was quite cozy at times, but cheaper than a taxi, and no one ever complained.

Regardless, your argument seems to fall into the “two wrongs make it right” category?

No, my argument is that the sky is not falling.

bb:

Again, your ‘absolute Islam’ is rather sieve-like in a number of ways, but your ‘islamophobia’ seems as tight as a drum.

I don’t understand what you mean by “absolute Islam”? Are you referring to the two beliefs I claimed were fundamental?

I’m referring to your implication that Islam is monolithic, and fits neatly and precisely into your interpretation of Islam.

Can you give me your definition of “islamophobia”?

Sure.  Look at the subject history of your threads and posts.  You may find some hint there.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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25 September 2018 17:21
 

BB -

I think you’re the one with the preconceived notions. I have clarified many times that I don’t see Islam as monolithic. That said, it’s equally preposterous of you to imply that it defies any and all attempts to be pinned down.

As for your response for a definition of Islamophobic, it’s basically a non-response. Slurs like this don’t indicate good faith.

 
 
bbearren
 
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25 September 2018 22:18
 
icehorse - 25 September 2018 05:21 PM

BB -

There is a BB, and BB isn’t me.  I’m bb.  Don’t disparage BB.

I think you’re the one with the preconceived notions. I have clarified many times that I don’t see Islam as monolithic.

They don’t read that way.

I don’t think we can discount the significance of the Quran in how Muslims actually live. Over the centuries, Muslims have tirelessly defended this book from change. I think it’s safe to say that the Quran is a major “flywheel” in Islam. It helps maintain consistency across generations. We also have a lot of evidence that shows how passionately Muslims defend this book and their prophet. In the west we can and do criticize all other religions mercilessly (hooray!). But we have been forced to pull our punches when it comes to Islam, and the obvious reason is because Muslims get violent when their sacred cows get ridiculed (mixed metaphor intended?). E.g., there is no chance that we could take the broadway play “book of Morman” and repurpose it to satirize Islam.”

That said, it’s equally preposterous of you to imply that it defies any and all attempts to be pinned down.

Don’t all active religions defy any and all such attempts?  Only dead religions can be pinned down.  Surely you’re aware of that.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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26 September 2018 07:49
 
bbearren - 25 September 2018 10:18 PM
icehorse - 25 September 2018 05:21 PM

BB -

There is a BB, and BB isn’t me.  I’m bb.  Don’t disparage BB.

I think you’re the one with the preconceived notions. I have clarified many times that I don’t see Islam as monolithic.

They don’t read that way.

I don’t think we can discount the significance of the Quran in how Muslims actually live. Over the centuries, Muslims have tirelessly defended this book from change. I think it’s safe to say that the Quran is a major “flywheel” in Islam. It helps maintain consistency across generations. We also have a lot of evidence that shows how passionately Muslims defend this book and their prophet. In the west we can and do criticize all other religions mercilessly (hooray!). But we have been forced to pull our punches when it comes to Islam, and the obvious reason is because Muslims get violent when their sacred cows get ridiculed (mixed metaphor intended?). E.g., there is no chance that we could take the broadway play “book of Morman” and repurpose it to satirize Islam.”

That said, it’s equally preposterous of you to imply that it defies any and all attempts to be pinned down.

Don’t all active religions defy any and all such attempts?  Only dead religions can be pinned down.  Surely you’re aware of that.

sorry for the BB, bb,

Almost always, if you interpret anyone’s post concerning any large group of people, the poster will not be making 100%, black and white claims. The poster is almost always discussing trends and majorities and so on, correct? Can we just establish for the record that it’s exceedingly rare that anything about a large group will be true 100% of the time.

I will stand by the post you referenced above. Over the span of 1400 years, the Quran has remained largely unchanged, and the defense of it has never waned. Those two things have been a constant for 1400 years. (By which I mean not 100% perfectly constant, but pretty darned constant wink  )

So when I talk about pinning some things down, I’m not talking about pinning 100% of Islam down. But once again, virtually all Muslims will tell you these two things about their faith:

- The Quran is perfect and unalterable
- Muhammad was the perfect role model.

Those two claims are far more consequential than the claims made by Christians. We see Christians debate some of Christ’s supposed actions, and we see the Bible modified left and right.

But those two tenets of Islam are held as immutable, and given the nature of the Quran and the nature of Muhammad’s life, that’s a huge problem.

If we think about the friendly Muslims you’ve encountered, one of the following must be true:

- They don’t believe the two tenets above but they must say they do in public.
- They DO believe the two tenets above but they say they defend secular society.

In either case they are making and defending a huge lie throughout their entire life. That’s why I said that it’s as if they are carrying a cognitive anchor. Having to sustain this huge lie throughout their lives is a cognitive burden.

This is not an “islamophobic” conclusion. It’s a logical one. The basic tenets of the faith THEY CHOOSE to adhere to are in opposition to our society. That conflict is real.

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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26 September 2018 08:10
 

Ice:
If we think about the friendly Muslims you’ve encountered, one of the following must be true:

- They don’t believe the two tenets above but they must say they do in public.
- They DO believe the two tenets above but they say they defend secular society.

I disagree with these assumptions.  Muslims I’ve cited in this thread do not fit these descriptions.  This is the crux of our disagreement.  You seem to assume that most Muslims, unlike people of all other faiths, are unable to make personal decisions about what they believe or what they say, even when they live in open Western societies.

I agree with you that people should not make blanket statements, such as “Islam is a religion of peace,” since it obviously is not for radical fundamentalists.  To be honest, they should add the caveat, “My sect of Islam…” or “How I interpret Islam…”  By the same token, I don’t see why you seem loathe to address your concerns to radical Islam, rather than to Islam as a whole, or the “vast majority” or “800 million Muslims.” 

The reason we are arguing here is that Muslim immigrants in the West are being conflated with radical Muslims, creating a climate of unnecessary fear.  Here is an interesting article by Pew Research.  It gives stats on views of Muslims and about Muslims around the world.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/

In the US, 92% of Muslims say they are “proud to be Americans,” although nearly half state they’ve experienced discrimination in the past year.  Tellingly, on political and social views, US Muslims lean toward the Democratic Party.  Not surprisingly, Republicans express more negative views of Muslims.  This issue is a political football, batted about to influence voters.  Therefore, we must be very careful in our stating our claims.

Yes, ISIS is violent and scary.  Yes, I will look at my neighbors as individuals, rather than making assumptions.

[ Edited: 26 September 2018 08:43 by hannahtoo]
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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26 September 2018 08:30
 
hannahtoo - 26 September 2018 08:10 AM

Ice:
If we think about the friendly Muslims you’ve encountered, one of the following must be true:

- They don’t believe the two tenets above but they must say they do in public.
- They DO believe the two tenets above but they say they defend secular society.

I disagree with these assumptions.  Muslims I’ve cited in this thread do not fit these descriptions.  This is the crux of our disagreement.  You seem to assume that Muslims, unlike people of all other faiths, are unable to make personal decisions about what they believe or what they say, even when they live in open Western societies.

Ok, so what’s a plausible example of what they really think and say? The reason I ask is because the idea that blasphemy is a crime looms large for Muslims. Unlike other religions, it’s physically dangerous for a Muslim - anywhere in the world - to blaspheme.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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26 September 2018 08:33
 

International Blasphemy Rights Day Sep 30

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_Day

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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26 September 2018 08:47
 
icehorse - 26 September 2018 08:30 AM
hannahtoo - 26 September 2018 08:10 AM

Ice:
If we think about the friendly Muslims you’ve encountered, one of the following must be true:

- They don’t believe the two tenets above but they must say they do in public.
- They DO believe the two tenets above but they say they defend secular society.

I disagree with these assumptions.  Muslims I’ve cited in this thread do not fit these descriptions.  This is the crux of our disagreement.  You seem to assume that Muslims, unlike people of all other faiths, are unable to make personal decisions about what they believe or what they say, even when they live in open Western societies.

Ok, so what’s a plausible example of what they really think and say? The reason I ask is because the idea that blasphemy is a crime looms large for Muslims. Unlike other religions, it’s physically dangerous for a Muslim - anywhere in the world - to blaspheme.

See my post which ended up above yours.  The link is a good one for assessing Muslim views.

 
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