Nhoj: Exactly! Let’s encourage and enable the strengthening of their capacity to carry anchors.
Up until this point in your post, it seems we’re largely in agreement. This is perhaps where our biggest disagreement lies, and admittedly, I’m making some inferences here, let me know if I’ve got your points wrong…
I’m going to - arbitrarily - declare two types of Islamic immigrants. Yes, I know, there I go again with the generalizations and the categorizations:
- type 1: Middle class and above families coming to the West, probably taking Islam very lightly.
- type 2: Poorer, less educated families, more likely to take Islam more literally and seriously.
The type 1’s are relatively few in number, and it would seem are assimilating to their host cultures in largely healthy ways.
My types are not arbitrary. Yours are based on some dodgy perceptions. Affluence is a factor since it usually indicates a more modern education. The suggestion that, as Type 1 middle class’ers, they don’t take Islam seriously is hard to take seriously. I see many taking it very seriously. Type 2’s take Islam more seriously? More simplistically perhaps. Tell the Type 1/B’s that they do not take Islam as seriously as and the violent fundamental type 2/A’s and see what happens.
What is the path from Type 2 to 1? What is the difference between your types other than wealth? If you say education, what about their education makes a difference? What about the suggestion that educational technique can train their perception differently or do you still insist that the enemy is info?
Over the last several decades, Europe has promoted mass immigration of the type 2’s. The type 2’s are (largely), resisting assimilation. They’re for more likely to remain “on the dole”. They’re far more likely to create insulated, highly segregated “Muslim only” neighborhoods. They are far more likely than any other demographic to commit rape and other violent crimes (although the authorities make these statistics hard to uncover). They are large in number, and their population is growing faster than other groups in Europe.
Yes they are. But you are sticking with your context of type 2’s. That makes us disagree over why. Make the case for info over training. That is where we have grounds for debate. Not my considered Type-ing over your arbitrary choice of class distinction.
For these group 2’s i don’t think your “long duration anchor-carrying” strategy will work out. I think that if we take a lassie faire(sp?) attitude, they will tend to become more insulated, more intrenched in their old ways. Looking at how this situation has been progressing in Europe over the last several decades does not lead me to believe that being non-prickly has worked out well.
How is my long duration anchor carrying an example of a lazy fare (sp!) attitude? It is a five-alarm response. If we impose any kind of standard on immigration it should be an insistence on demonstrable B-ness. How is 1-ness demonstrated? By wealth? There are plenty of wealthy A’s (His Orangeness is a good example). How is being prickly about their religion going to make them less insulated or entrenched? Train them to think and perceive differently and their religion will look different to them. Any discipline will do.
Nhoj: Is it possible that your indoctrination changed or enhanced the way your brain works? What if your training gave you a self-authority from which to question other authorities? Can you imagine not possessing a self-authority? It is what we get when we can hold up our anchors with pride.
I believe I get your points here and I largely agree. I think that Islamic indoctrination is very “Ummah” focused. In other words it’s directed towards support of the Muslim nation over actualization of the self. And yes, the Ummah is at odds with the idea of self-authority.
We disagree that Islam offers only one kind of indoctrination. Self-authority is not an idea. It is a perceptual operation that we learned to do in the course of our indoctrination. We need to share it out to everyone regardless of how angry we are at the lies they grew up with. At what point comes reconciliation?
So the question is, how do we deal with folks who have been indoctrinated in this way?
Introduce a counter-indoctrination of science and reason based education. Expose them to stories. Encourage hobbies and self-determination. Disillusion starts with a self.
I don’t believe that we should base our efforts on promoting lies like: “Islam is a religion of peace.” I believe that when we support such lies, we’re exacerbating the problem.
I would not worry about exacerbating the problem because you are not addressing it. You want to cut off the fuel and I say change the nature of the engine and it will seek a different fuel. Otherwise the engine will seek an alternative equivalent fuel. We need to imagine a mind that works and perceives differently. We need to worry about our own since we are leaning toward the same Type A indoctrination here at home and in Europe.
After one says, “That’s it. I’m not putting up with these lies anymore!” Then what? What if they say, “That’s it. I’m not putting up with your not putting up with my lies anymore!”
My types are not arbitrary. Yours are based on some dodgy perceptions.
Why on earth would I want to continue to discuss this with you, if that’s your take?
It is hard to tell from this article whether Rafizadeh deserves disapproval or not. I would counter that there has certainly been criticism of Islam by Muslims. Think of the popularity of the book and movie Kite Runner, written by Khaled Hosseini. I’ve also read other best-selling books by Muslim women who decry the abuses of their upbringings, such as Princess: A True Story of Life Behind the Veil in Saudi Arabia.
are those authors criticizing Islam, or criticizing tangential, detachable Isms like “Wahhabism” and “Salafism” (or the reliable go-to Ism, “Extremist Islamism”)? How about we see some Muslims criticize Islam itself, like we’ve seen countless Westerners criticize Christianity itself for the past 300-odd years?
My last post was a rhetorical question, of course. We won’t ever see that (though we will see a few clever Muslims pretending to do it, and fooling innumerable stupid Westerners anxious to see some “moderate Muslims” where there aren’t any).