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Pattern matching and themes in the Quran

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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12 October 2018 07:27
 
bbearren - 12 October 2018 07:14 AM
icehorse - 11 October 2018 08:39 PM

Again I agree with you, Islamic scripture is incoherent.

Unless you’re addressing this post to someone else (which you should make clear in any case), I’ve made no such statement, which would render any “agreement” from you incoherent.

bb -

I’m goofing with you a bit, but also I’m not. You have been posting examples of Muslims defending nonMuslims and you have been quoting passages from islamic scripture that indicate Muslims should defend nonMuslims.

But several posts ago I posted a link to a collection of over 500 times when the Quran calls for intolerance towards nonMuslims.

If anyone is reading both your citations and mine, the neutral conclusion has to be that the scripture itself is incoherent. Sometimes the scripture is tolerant and sometimes it’s not. Correct?

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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12 October 2018 08:31
 
icehorse - 12 October 2018 07:27 AM
bbearren - 12 October 2018 07:14 AM
icehorse - 11 October 2018 08:39 PM

Again I agree with you, Islamic scripture is incoherent.

Unless you’re addressing this post to someone else (which you should make clear in any case), I’ve made no such statement, which would render any “agreement” from you incoherent.

bb -

I’m goofing with you a bit, but also I’m not. You have been posting examples of Muslims defending nonMuslims and you have been quoting passages from islamic scripture that indicate Muslims should defend nonMuslims.

But several posts ago I posted a link to a collection of over 500 times when the Quran calls for intolerance towards nonMuslims.

If anyone is reading both your citations and mine, the neutral conclusion has to be that the scripture itself is incoherent. Sometimes the scripture is tolerant and sometimes it’s not. Correct?

Extremists of both the Muslim and Islamophobic non-Muslim varieties try to ignore, or even deny, the covenants of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), but all accept the authenticity of the Constitution of Medina. There is no doubt that in this there was a clear paragraph:

“The Jews of Banu ‘Awf are one community with the believers; the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs; their freedmen and their persons except those who behave unjustly and sinfully, for they hurt but themselves and their families.”

The second paragraph of the covenant of the Prophet Muhammad with the Assyrian Christians states, “To the followers of Islam I say: Carry out my command, protect and help the Nazarene nation in this country of ours in their own land.”

The significance of these words is that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) recognized the Nazarenes (Christians) as a people and a nation existing among of the people.

Thus, it’s obvious that Islam guarantees the protection of Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims who reside in Muslim lands. Their houses of worship should be defended from attack and their right to worship according to their choice respected.”

Egypt sentences 17 to death for Coptic Christian church attacks”

“A further 19 people were handed life jail terms over the attacks, which took place in 2016 and 2017, state news agency Mena reported on Thursday.”

 
 
Suheyla
 
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Suheyla
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12 October 2018 18:19
 
icehorse - 07 October 2018 01:05 PM

Over the last several years I’ve debated many Quranic apologists about the nature of the book. An extremely common exchange boils down to:

critic: Surah X, verse Y says Z, which is a very intolerant message.
apologist: You’re taking that verse out of context.

This page contains of list of well over 500 times that the Quran preaches intolerance towards nonMuslims:

intolerance in the quran

Let’s apply a little cognitive science to this situation. Human beings are pattern finding animals. We have experiences, we observe many moments, and we make general conclusions to navigate our lives. We see knifes cutting a variety of objects and we conclude that knives cut things. Most of us won’t test that out on our own fingers.

Apologists would have us believe (I guess?), that Muslims can read the 500+ ways they should be intolerant of nonMuslims, and I guess remember 500 specific rules???

I think that’s preposterous. One of the key themes in the Quran is that Muslims should be intolerant of nonMuslims. full stop.

Mr Icehorse, you speak of what you don’t understand.  Most Muslims are peaceful and tolerant. Why do you wish to define our religion by the actions of the few, but not by the actions of the majority?  I have many non-Muslim friends. Why not have Muslims friends and see for yourself please.

We go to schools and study the Koran at length. Why do you think you are able to understand the holy Koran by simply reading it?

Why is having a religion a bad thing?  I just don’t understand you, sir.  Thank you.

 

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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12 October 2018 18:34
 
Suheyla - 12 October 2018 06:19 PM
icehorse - 07 October 2018 01:05 PM

Over the last several years I’ve debated many Quranic apologists about the nature of the book. An extremely common exchange boils down to:

critic: Surah X, verse Y says Z, which is a very intolerant message.
apologist: You’re taking that verse out of context.

This page contains of list of well over 500 times that the Quran preaches intolerance towards nonMuslims:

intolerance in the quran

Let’s apply a little cognitive science to this situation. Human beings are pattern finding animals. We have experiences, we observe many moments, and we make general conclusions to navigate our lives. We see knifes cutting a variety of objects and we conclude that knives cut things. Most of us won’t test that out on our own fingers.

Apologists would have us believe (I guess?), that Muslims can read the 500+ ways they should be intolerant of nonMuslims, and I guess remember 500 specific rules???

I think that’s preposterous. One of the key themes in the Quran is that Muslims should be intolerant of nonMuslims. full stop.

1 - Mr Icehorse, you speak of what you don’t understand. 
2 - Most Muslims are peaceful and tolerant.
3- Why do you wish to define our religion by the actions of the few, but not by the actions of the majority? 
4 - I have many non-Muslim friends. Why not have Muslims friends and see for yourself please.
5 - We go to schools and study the Koran at length. Why do you think you are able to understand the holy Koran by simply reading it?
6 - Why is having a religion a bad thing?  I just don’t understand you, sir.  Thank you.

I think you might have some preconceived notions about critics of Islam. You seem to be accusing me of saying things I have not said. I reformatted your post and numbered your sentences so that I can respond to your questions.

1 - This thread is about cognitive science and pattern matching. I know a fair bit about this topic.
2 - According to the large polls I’ve seen, most Muslims are not tolerant towards Jews or homosexuals, and it’s usually very unsafe to be a woman in a Muslim majority country.
3 - I’m not doing that.
4 - I have a few Muslim friends. But again, this thread is about cognitive science.
5 - The Quran declares itself to be clear and easy to understand. Do you disagree with that?
6 - This is also off topic for this thread, but I will respond anyway. If people kept their religions to themselves I wouldn’t care so much. But too many religious people want to bring their religious beliefs into the public space. When this happens things tend to go badly. Religious people tend to want to restrict what other people can do. I value my civil liberties very highly and I don’t want religious people trying to limit them.

Now let me ask you a question: Why is it that the Quran is so focused on criticizing nonMuslims? Doesn’t that seem intolerant to you? (And in case you missed it, at the beginning of this thread there is a link to a webpage that lists over 500 times that the Quran preaches intolerance of nonMuslims.)

 
 
Suheyla
 
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Suheyla
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12 October 2018 19:04
 
icehorse - 12 October 2018 06:34 PM
Suheyla - 12 October 2018 06:19 PM
icehorse - 07 October 2018 01:05 PM

Over the last several years I’ve debated many Quranic apologists about the nature of the book. An extremely common exchange boils down to:

critic: Surah X, verse Y says Z, which is a very intolerant message.
apologist: You’re taking that verse out of context.

This page contains of list of well over 500 times that the Quran preaches intolerance towards nonMuslims:

intolerance in the quran

Let’s apply a little cognitive science to this situation. Human beings are pattern finding animals. We have experiences, we observe many moments, and we make general conclusions to navigate our lives. We see knifes cutting a variety of objects and we conclude that knives cut things. Most of us won’t test that out on our own fingers.

Apologists would have us believe (I guess?), that Muslims can read the 500+ ways they should be intolerant of nonMuslims, and I guess remember 500 specific rules???

I think that’s preposterous. One of the key themes in the Quran is that Muslims should be intolerant of nonMuslims. full stop.

1 - Mr Icehorse, you speak of what you don’t understand. 
2 - Most Muslims are peaceful and tolerant.
3- Why do you wish to define our religion by the actions of the few, but not by the actions of the majority? 
4 - I have many non-Muslim friends. Why not have Muslims friends and see for yourself please.
5 - We go to schools and study the Koran at length. Why do you think you are able to understand the holy Koran by simply reading it?
6 - Why is having a religion a bad thing?  I just don’t understand you, sir.  Thank you.

I think you might have some preconceived notions about critics of Islam. You seem to be accusing me of saying things I have not said. I reformatted your post and numbered your sentences so that I can respond to your questions.

1 - This thread is about cognitive science and pattern matching. I know a fair bit about this topic.
2 - According to the large polls I’ve seen, most Muslims are not tolerant towards Jews or homosexuals, and it’s usually very unsafe to be a woman in a Muslim majority country.
3 - I’m not doing that.
4 - I have a few Muslim friends. But again, this thread is about cognitive science.
5 - The Quran declares itself to be clear and easy to understand. Do you disagree with that?
6 - This is also off topic for this thread, but I will respond anyway. If people kept their religions to themselves I wouldn’t care so much. But too many religious people want to bring their religious beliefs into the public space. When this happens things tend to go badly. Religious people tend to want to restrict what other people can do. I value my civil liberties very highly and I don’t want religious people trying to limit them.

Now let me ask you a question: Why is it that the Quran is so focused on criticizing nonMuslims? Doesn’t that seem intolerant to you? (And in case you missed it, at the beginning of this thread there is a link to a webpage that lists over 500 times that the Quran preaches intolerance of nonMuslims.)

1- Well then you have me at a disadvantage, sir. I know nothing about cognitive science.
2- Polls?  How do you poll 1.5 billion people?  I guess you don’t. You take samples. Is that like the samples taken for the US Presidential elections in 2016?  I was born and raised in the culture and my experience tells me majority are peaceful and tolerant. But you rely on unreliable polls.
3- You are doing that.
4- OK. What was the sample size? Did they disappoint you?  2? 3?  Did that help you to judge the 1.5 Billion people? 
5- Not easy to understand if you are 1400 years late. It was easy to understand at the time, in context.  Today, we need to study the classical Arabic and rely on many other sources to understand.
6- Religion is about believing. In Islam we call that having “Iman”.  Do you not believe anything on faith?

You question:  Critical views of non-Muslims are limited to those who tried to make trouble for our Prophet and getting his message spread.  Is that not logical?  Notice there are no criticism of Hindus, Chinese or Japanese because they made no trouble. Again, it needs to be read in context of the times.

I’m here with my family in the US,  visiting again. And they are helping me with my English to write back to you properly. Thank you.

 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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Joined  03-08-2014
 
 
 
12 October 2018 19:53
 
icehorse - 12 October 2018 06:34 PM
Suheyla - 12 October 2018 06:19 PM
icehorse - 07 October 2018 01:05 PM

Over the last several years I’ve debated many Quranic apologists about the nature of the book. An extremely common exchange boils down to:

critic: Surah X, verse Y says Z, which is a very intolerant message.
apologist: You’re taking that verse out of context.

This page contains of list of well over 500 times that the Quran preaches intolerance towards nonMuslims:

intolerance in the quran

Let’s apply a little cognitive science to this situation. Human beings are pattern finding animals. We have experiences, we observe many moments, and we make general conclusions to navigate our lives. We see knifes cutting a variety of objects and we conclude that knives cut things. Most of us won’t test that out on our own fingers.

Apologists would have us believe (I guess?), that Muslims can read the 500+ ways they should be intolerant of nonMuslims, and I guess remember 500 specific rules???

I think that’s preposterous. One of the key themes in the Quran is that Muslims should be intolerant of nonMuslims. full stop.

1 - Mr Icehorse, you speak of what you don’t understand. 
2 - Most Muslims are peaceful and tolerant.
3- Why do you wish to define our religion by the actions of the few, but not by the actions of the majority? 
4 - I have many non-Muslim friends. Why not have Muslims friends and see for yourself please.
5 - We go to schools and study the Koran at length. Why do you think you are able to understand the holy Koran by simply reading it?
6 - Why is having a religion a bad thing?  I just don’t understand you, sir.  Thank you.

I think you might have some preconceived notions about critics of Islam. You seem to be accusing me of saying things I have not said. I reformatted your post and numbered your sentences so that I can respond to your questions.

1 - This thread is about cognitive science and pattern matching. I know a fair bit about this topic.
2 - According to the large polls I’ve seen, most Muslims are not tolerant towards Jews or homosexuals, and it’s usually very unsafe to be a woman in a Muslim majority country.
3 - I’m not doing that.
4 - I have a few Muslim friends. But again, this thread is about cognitive science.
5 - The Quran declares itself to be clear and easy to understand. Do you disagree with that?
6 - This is also off topic for this thread, but I will respond anyway. If people kept their religions to themselves I wouldn’t care so much. But too many religious people want to bring their religious beliefs into the public space. When this happens things tend to go badly. Religious people tend to want to restrict what other people can do. I value my civil liberties very highly and I don’t want religious people trying to limit them.

Now let me ask you a question: Why is it that the Quran is so focused on criticizing nonMuslims? Doesn’t that seem intolerant to you? (And in case you missed it, at the beginning of this thread there is a link to a webpage that lists over 500 times that the Quran preaches intolerance of nonMuslims.)

Well, you seem focused on criticizing Muslims, for example, accusing them of mass rape with the approval of their religion (I’m really curious which mainstream school of Islam teaches that mass rape of young girls is approved).  And generally having a bad society, being unable to take criticism of their religion, promoting ideologies western liberals don’t like such as misogyny, anti-semitism, and homophobia. 

I do find it interesting that you attribute all these beliefs (misogyny etc) to Suheyla (I’m assuming she’s a Muslim).  And as (in your mind) these are her beliefs, you then go about condemning her for being intolerant.  That’s just plain insulting.

Not to get into it, but certain prominent streams of Jewish thinking approve of rape of young girls, and I can’t even say they’re fringe:  https://mondoweiss.net/2017/08/prominent-israeli-preaches/.  As a disclaimer, I’ve never studied Jewish law, I take such teaching as representative only of those who teach it (or accept such teaching), and far from the beliefs of most Jews and certainly far from the beliefs of any Jews of my acquaintance.  As a second disclaimer, I think attributing such approval of rape to Jews in general would be anti-semitic (proper Talmudic reading or not), but that (attributing approval of rape & other abhorrent beliefs) is what you are doing to adherents of Islam in general, hence, your posts are Islamophobic, preaching intolerance.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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12 October 2018 20:08
 

lyn -

You are putting words in my mouth left and right. If you want to have a thoughtful debate, that’s great with me. But if you continue to put words in my mouth, I just won’t respond.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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12 October 2018 20:13
 

Suheyla.

Here’s a link to a poll taken a few years ago. 38,000 Muslims were polled across 39 different countries:

pew: Muslims

Now there are a few things you’ve said concerning the Quran that I disagree with. Many, many Muslims have told me that the Quran is perfect and timeless, and the Quran declares itself to be easy to understand.

Do you agree with what I just said about the Quran?

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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12 October 2018 20:15
 
lynmc - 12 October 2018 07:53 PM

Not to get into it, but certain prominent streams of Jewish thinking approve of rape of young girls, and I can’t even say they’re fringe:

And that is the problem with ALL religions, they are 1000’s of year old ignorance, myth, magic and superstition that people believe and base their lives on. Only with religion do you have men fighting and killing each over if god allows raping young girls or killing non-virgin or disobedient ones. So all your argument amounts to is which version of ignorance, myth, magic and superstition is the right version when it should be against the ignorance, myth, magic and superstition of religion.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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12 October 2018 20:17
 

what GAD said

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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12 October 2018 20:43
 

I won’t put words in anyone’s mouth but I am watching how they come out. I remember Ms. Suheyla’s last vist.

Please maintain civility.

 
 
burt
 
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burt
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12 October 2018 23:20
 
icehorse - 12 October 2018 07:27 AM
bbearren - 12 October 2018 07:14 AM
icehorse - 11 October 2018 08:39 PM

Again I agree with you, Islamic scripture is incoherent.

Unless you’re addressing this post to someone else (which you should make clear in any case), I’ve made no such statement, which would render any “agreement” from you incoherent.

bb -

I’m goofing with you a bit, but also I’m not. You have been posting examples of Muslims defending nonMuslims and you have been quoting passages from islamic scripture that indicate Muslims should defend nonMuslims.

But several posts ago I posted a link to a collection of over 500 times when the Quran calls for intolerance towards nonMuslims.

If anyone is reading both your citations and mine, the neutral conclusion has to be that the scripture itself is incoherent. Sometimes the scripture is tolerant and sometimes it’s not. Correct?

Ice, you are committing a fallacy here. First off, you have to ask what is the context for each of the various statements. Instead you seem to be saying that if somebody says yes under one set of conditions then they must say yes under all conditions. It’s like the young fellow who visited a sage hoping to gain wisdom. The sage greeted him outside his door and invited him in for some tea. As they went into the house the sage blew on his hands and the young man asked why he did this. “To warm them” the sage said. Then he busied himself brewing tea and brought out two steaming cups. He blew on his cup of tea and the young man asked why he did this. “To cool it” was the reply. At that moment the fellow decided he could learn nothing from such an inconsistent person who would blow both hot and cold. On your logic, however, I’m sure we could also accuse you, or anybody of incoherence. Perhaps you belong on the Supreme Court as an original text type.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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13 October 2018 07:16
 

burt:

Ice, you are committing a fallacy here. First off, you have to ask what is the context for each of the various statements. Instead you seem to be saying that if somebody says yes under one set of conditions then they must say yes under all conditions.

And that’s sort of the point of this entire thread. As we are pattern matching machines, our minds might attempt to keep track of the 524 specific rules about under which exact circumstances Muslims should be intolerant of nonMuslims. But our subconscious brains WILL find the larger, simpler pattern. One of the larger, simpler patterns in the Quran is “be intolerant of nonMuslims”.

I understand that there are plenty of tolerant Muslims. But their brains and minds are at odds with each other. And of course, large, world-wide polls show us that - indeed - some of the repeated messages in the Quran do in fact translate to commonly held opinions throughout the Muslim world.

Put yet another way, cognitive scientists will tell you that an individual’s mind and their brain are frequently at odds. Further, the brain is more frequently in charge than the conscious mind likes to acknowledge. We are all run more by tacit knowledge and skills than we let on. In this case “tacit” means: that which cannot be accurately described. No one on the planet can accurately describe the formula for walking. Or hitting a tennis ball. Or playing the violin. Or making moral decisions. We CAN become reliable experts in these domains, but our minds cannot put accurate words to explain our expertise. This is tacit knowledge and skill. One aspect of this is that the brain acts without the mind agreeing. Every good performer (music, sports, chess..), will tell you that when they are performing they are “in the flow”. They will tell you that the part of their brain that can speak is quiet when they are performing. Further, when they cannot quiet the mind, the mind gums up the works. The mind is fond of coaching “racket low”, “knees bent”, “head down”, and so on. But the mind actually has almost no ability to do the thing being done. The doing of the thing being done is above the mind’s pay grade. The brain that cannot explain is in charge.

So, back to the Quran, the mind can try to hedge and justify and qualify and defend and make sense of the words. One can become a “scholar” of the book and - in conversation between minds - demonstrate scholarly knowledge of the context and history and on and on. But the BRAIN DOES NOT CARE. The brain has spotted and remembered the patterns.

It IS a problem that 1.8 billion people’s brains have the message “be intolerant towards nonMuslims” burned in. It IS a problem that this devastatingly damaging book is so widely read, studied, and defended. And it’s defended by well-intended nonMuslims - yikes!

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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13 October 2018 07:28
 

Out of curiosity I ran some quick numbers.  Less than 10% of today’s world Muslim population, equipped with suicide vests, could wipe out the rest of humanity (with the exception, of course, of those who choose to convert to Islam to save themselves).  It seems like a win-win; a net gain in the Muslim population through conversion, plenty of new martyrs to celebrate, and no more non-Muslims left in the world.

Why hasn’t this already happened?  And going back further, what’s with the Constitution of Medina?  “There is no doubt that in this there was a clear paragraph:

“The Jews of Banu ‘Awf are one community with the believers; the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs; their freedmen and their persons except those who behave unjustly and sinfully, for they hurt but themselves and their families.”

The second paragraph of the covenant of the Prophet Muhammad with the Assyrian Christians states, “To the followers of Islam I say: Carry out my command, protect and help the Nazarene nation in this country of ours in their own land.”

The significance of these words is that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) recognized the Nazarenes (Christians) as a people and a nation existing among of the people.

Thus, it’s obvious that Islam guarantees the protection of Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims who reside in Muslim lands. Their houses of worship should be defended from attack and their right to worship according to their choice respected.”

Why did Muhammad decide to let the Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims live in peace and practice their own religion in their own houses of worship?  Did he not understand the Quran?  Did Muhammad have a problem with pattern matching and themes in the Quran?

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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13 October 2018 07:35
 

bb:

Why did Muhammad decide to let the Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims live in peace and practice their own religion in their own houses of worship?  Did he not understand the Quran?  Did Muhammad have a problem with pattern matching and themes in the Quran?

If you were to study all of my posts on this forum you would find (among other things), that I have always acknowledged that Muhammad was a brilliant general and politician. He “picked his battles” as it were. And of course, on occasion he’d choose to lop off the heads of 800 of his defeated Jewish and/or Christian opponents.

In other words, Muhammad was tolerant when it suited his end game.

 
 
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