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Worldwide Persecution of Christians by Islamic Extremists

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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21 October 2018 07:44
 

The following report lists extremist actions taken by Islamists around the world, persecuting Christians. It’s hard not to be snarky here, but I have to say, it seems abundantly evident that it’s easy to learn violent, supremacist messages from Islam.

From the end of the report:

While not all, or even most, Muslims are involved, persecution of Christians by extremists is growing. The report posits that such persecution is not random but rather systematic, and takes place irrespective of language, ethnicity, or location.

persecution

Note: I am happy to acknowledge that the publisher of this article - Gatestone - has an anti-Islam bias. But the author of this article makes a series of specific, factual claims. So regardless of bias, these claims must be evaluated on their own merit, correct?

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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21 October 2018 09:35
 

Assaults against Muslims in U.S. surpass 2001 level
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/15/assaults-against-muslims-in-u-s-surpass-2001-level/

When will the West take a stand on the persecution of Muslims?
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/when-will-the-west-take-a-stand-on-the-persecution-of-muslims/


As has been the case for centuries, religious fundamentalism and extremism is a serious dilemma and a threat to peace.  And the conflicts are often also mixed up with politics and ethnicity.  If we were to learn from history, we would know that persecution and intolerance is not the answer.  Meeting intolerance with intolerance, hate with hate, will solve nothing.  And it is possible to stand firm in defense of one’s values and ethics without prejudice against the ‘other’.  It is a battle to fight our tribalistic natures, but one we should attempt nonetheless.

[ Edited: 21 October 2018 09:50 by Jan_CAN]
 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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21 October 2018 10:06
 
Jan_CAN - 21 October 2018 09:35 AM

Assaults against Muslims in U.S. surpass 2001 level
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/15/assaults-against-muslims-in-u-s-surpass-2001-level/

When will the West take a stand on the persecution of Muslims?
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/when-will-the-west-take-a-stand-on-the-persecution-of-muslims/

As has been the case for centuries, religious fundamentalism and extremism is a serious dilemma and a threat to peace.  And the conflicts are often also mixed up with politics and ethnicity.  If we were to learn from history, we would know that persecution and intolerance is not the answer.  Meeting intolerance with intolerance, hate with hate, will solve nothing.  And it is possible to stand firm in defense of one’s values and ethics without prejudice against the ‘other’.  It is a battle to fight our tribalistic natures, but one we should attempt nonetheless.

So - sincere question - how should we deal with intolerance? One approach I think is flawed is to pretend that intolerant ideologies are okay.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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21 October 2018 10:44
 
icehorse - 21 October 2018 10:06 AM
Jan_CAN - 21 October 2018 09:35 AM

Assaults against Muslims in U.S. surpass 2001 level
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/15/assaults-against-muslims-in-u-s-surpass-2001-level/

When will the West take a stand on the persecution of Muslims?
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/when-will-the-west-take-a-stand-on-the-persecution-of-muslims/

As has been the case for centuries, religious fundamentalism and extremism is a serious dilemma and a threat to peace.  And the conflicts are often also mixed up with politics and ethnicity.  If we were to learn from history, we would know that persecution and intolerance is not the answer.  Meeting intolerance with intolerance, hate with hate, will solve nothing.  And it is possible to stand firm in defense of one’s values and ethics without prejudice against the ‘other’.  It is a battle to fight our tribalistic natures, but one we should attempt nonetheless.

So - sincere question - how should we deal with intolerance? One approach I think is flawed is to pretend that intolerant ideologies are okay.

By debating and speaking out against specific harmful ideologies, but not against the whole group (ethnic or religious).  By treating ALL people with tolerance and acceptance, with a genuine attempt at understanding, unless their actions as individuals are shown to be dangerous.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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21 October 2018 10:53
 
Jan_CAN - 21 October 2018 10:44 AM
icehorse - 21 October 2018 10:06 AM
Jan_CAN - 21 October 2018 09:35 AM

Assaults against Muslims in U.S. surpass 2001 level
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/15/assaults-against-muslims-in-u-s-surpass-2001-level/

When will the West take a stand on the persecution of Muslims?
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/when-will-the-west-take-a-stand-on-the-persecution-of-muslims/

As has been the case for centuries, religious fundamentalism and extremism is a serious dilemma and a threat to peace.  And the conflicts are often also mixed up with politics and ethnicity.  If we were to learn from history, we would know that persecution and intolerance is not the answer.  Meeting intolerance with intolerance, hate with hate, will solve nothing.  And it is possible to stand firm in defense of one’s values and ethics without prejudice against the ‘other’.  It is a battle to fight our tribalistic natures, but one we should attempt nonetheless.

So - sincere question - how should we deal with intolerance? One approach I think is flawed is to pretend that intolerant ideologies are okay.

By debating and speaking out against specific harmful ideologies, but not against the whole group (ethnic or religious).  By treating ALL people with tolerance and acceptance, with a genuine attempt at understanding, unless their actions as individuals are shown to be dangerous.

First off, who on this forum do you think would conflate ideologies with ethnicity?

Second, I think tolerance and acceptance are earned, they are not a right. Sane people approach strangers with a bit of trust but also with a bit of caution. From there, tolerance needs to be earned, correct?

Muslims have chosen a hard path for themselves. Emphasis on the word “chosen”. They come to the west making an implicit claim that they adhere to an intolerant ideology. Personally, I don’t appreciate having to deal with that implicit claim, and to boot, pretend it’s not there. I believe anyone who attempts to shield Muslims from criticism of Islam is guilty of “soft bigotry”. Why should they be shielded from the fact that their ideology is inferior?

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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21 October 2018 11:21
 
icehorse - 21 October 2018 10:53 AM
Jan_CAN - 21 October 2018 10:44 AM
icehorse - 21 October 2018 10:06 AM

So - sincere question - how should we deal with intolerance? One approach I think is flawed is to pretend that intolerant ideologies are okay.

By debating and speaking out against specific harmful ideologies, but not against the whole group (ethnic or religious).  By treating ALL people with tolerance and acceptance, with a genuine attempt at understanding, unless their actions as individuals are shown to be dangerous.

First off, who on this forum do you think would conflate ideologies with ethnicity?

Second, I think tolerance and acceptance are earned, they are not a right. Sane people approach strangers with a bit of trust but also with a bit of caution. From there, tolerance needs to be earned, correct?

Muslims have chosen a hard path for themselves. Emphasis on the word “chosen”. They come to the west making an implicit claim that they adhere to an intolerant ideology. Personally, I don’t appreciate having to deal with that implicit claim, and to boot, pretend it’s not there. I believe anyone who attempts to shield Muslims from criticism of Islam is guilty of “soft bigotry”. Why should they be shielded from the fact that their ideology is inferior?

I did not say that anyone on this forum would conflate ideology with ethnicity.  However, it has been a factor in regards to prejudice that some Muslims have faced.

I DO think that tolerance and acceptance are a right.  (This is not the same as trust, which is gained over time with anyone.)  That it is everyone`s right in a democratic society to be assumed to be an equal member of that society and to not be met by presumptions and prejudice.

I can`t get past the way you speak of Muslims as a whole.  You can make all kinds of justifications, but to judge them all in this manner shows prejudice.  You speak of bigotry, but do not seem to see it in yourself.  You have said that criticising Islam is not the same as criticising Muslims, yet you do it again and again.

(I had hoped for a less confrontational exchange this time, but I don`t think it`s going to happen.  So I`ll just stop here.)

 

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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21 October 2018 11:24
 

So - it is very easy to acknowledge that persecution occurs.
Persecution against LGBTQ, Identifiable Minorities, Atheists, Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc… occurs all the time in various places.

What is your proposed methodology of reducing (any) persecution?

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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21 October 2018 11:39
 
Jan_CAN - 21 October 2018 11:21 AM
icehorse - 21 October 2018 10:53 AM
Jan_CAN - 21 October 2018 10:44 AM
icehorse - 21 October 2018 10:06 AM

So - sincere question - how should we deal with intolerance? One approach I think is flawed is to pretend that intolerant ideologies are okay.

By debating and speaking out against specific harmful ideologies, but not against the whole group (ethnic or religious).  By treating ALL people with tolerance and acceptance, with a genuine attempt at understanding, unless their actions as individuals are shown to be dangerous.

First off, who on this forum do you think would conflate ideologies with ethnicity?

Second, I think tolerance and acceptance are earned, they are not a right. Sane people approach strangers with a bit of trust but also with a bit of caution. From there, tolerance needs to be earned, correct?

Muslims have chosen a hard path for themselves. Emphasis on the word “chosen”. They come to the west making an implicit claim that they adhere to an intolerant ideology. Personally, I don’t appreciate having to deal with that implicit claim, and to boot, pretend it’s not there. I believe anyone who attempts to shield Muslims from criticism of Islam is guilty of “soft bigotry”. Why should they be shielded from the fact that their ideology is inferior?

I did not say that anyone on this forum would conflate ideology with ethnicity.  However, it has been a factor in regards to prejudice that some Muslims have faced.

I DO think that tolerance and acceptance are a right.  (This is not the same as trust, which is gained over time with anyone.)  That it is everyone`s right in a democratic society to be assumed to be an equal member of that society and to not be met by presumptions and prejudice.

I can`t get past the way you speak of Muslims as a whole.  You can make all kinds of justifications, but to judge them all in this manner shows prejudice.  You speak of bigotry, but do not seem to see it in yourself.  You have said that criticising Islam is not the same as criticising Muslims, yet you do it again and again.

(I had hoped for a less confrontational exchange this time, but I don`t think it`s going to happen.  So I`ll just stop here.)

We are exchanging ideas and perspectives and we disagree, correct?

To some degree, you are correct. I judge anyone who declares themselves to be a Muslim. I judge them because I find their declaration to be selfish and oppressive. For the sake of this discussion I’m happy to limit my remarks to “moderate Muslims”. When a moderate Muslim presents themselves to the western world, they ARE being selfish. They are asking the rest of us to pretend their ideology is just fine, when in fact it’s rubbish. This would all change if some of them created a reformed version of Islam, published its ideas, and gave it a name. For the sake of discussion, let’s say that some Muslims created “Islam-lite”. (And, BTW, take a look at this website from the Muslim Reform Movement, while it’s not perfect, it’s a step in the correct direction):

MRM

If a stranger comes up to me and introduces themselves as a member of “Islam-lite”, they have already earned a lot of respect. That declaration implies a lot of good things:

- It implies a recognition that normal Islam ain’t so great.
- It implies a recognition that normal Islam isn’t compatible with the west.
- It implies that the person has actually put some effort into integrating into their host country.

Otherwise, a “normal” Muslim in the west is demonstrating some combination of:

- cultural arrogance
- ignorance
- selfishness
- down right subversion

Why should we be tolerant of this?

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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21 October 2018 11:56
 

Dude, you’ve been here long enough to know this is a kumbaya crowd. To them a good Muslim, Jew, Christian etc are the ones who don’t follow the terrible things their holy books and gods tell them to and the bad ones are the ones don’t not follow them.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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21 October 2018 12:06
 
GAD - 21 October 2018 11:56 AM

Dude, you’ve been here long enough to know this is a kumbaya crowd. To them a good Muslim, Jew, Christian etc are the ones who don’t follow the terrible things their holy books and gods tell them to and the bad ones are the ones don’t not follow them.

A fella can hope wink

 
 
SkepticX
 
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21 October 2018 12:55
 
GAD - 21 October 2018 11:56 AM

Dude, you’ve been here long enough to know this is a kumbaya crowd. To them a good Muslim, Jew, Christian etc are the ones who don’t follow the terrible things their holy books and gods tell them to and the bad ones are the ones don’t not follow them.


And that doesn’t make sense to you? Better to encourage the terrible nastiness? Your wording also suggests there are real gods telling believers things, and ultimately that your take on holy books is the only correct or proper or even reasonable take on them.

It’s not all about you though, believe it or not.

I’d argue it’s not smart to encourage the harshest interpretation of a potentially nasty religion, particularly with those who are plainly updating and softening it and making it more agreeable and rational and peaceable and such. We should support such revisions, just as we should encourage the modern revisionism regarding the term faith (even though or particularly because it’s being redefined to mean more or less its opposite). We can accept them as revisions (or revisionism if our egos need that boost of validation), but to reject them because they’re revisions according to our own personal framework is just dogmatic and militant and hostile to getting along well with the other humans.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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21 October 2018 13:03
 
icehorse - 21 October 2018 12:06 PM
GAD - 21 October 2018 11:56 AM

Dude, you’ve been here long enough to know this is a kumbaya crowd. To them a good Muslim, Jew, Christian etc are the ones who don’t follow the terrible things their holy books and gods tell them to and the bad ones are the ones don’t not follow them.

A fella can hope wink

Change tact, flank them with their own beliefs. For instance, ask them if they believe that Muslims who follow the letter of the law of gods word in the Quran are bad people. They can’t answer that directly because either way, yes or no, will conflict with their kumbaya world view and they will have argue about which version of gods word is the right version and the onus is on them to prove it.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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21 October 2018 13:09
 
SkepticX - 21 October 2018 12:55 PM
GAD - 21 October 2018 11:56 AM

Dude, you’ve been here long enough to know this is a kumbaya crowd. To them a good Muslim, Jew, Christian etc are the ones who don’t follow the terrible things their holy books and gods tell them to and the bad ones are the ones don’t not follow them.


And that doesn’t make sense to you? Better to encourage the terrible nastiness? Your wording also suggests there are real gods telling believers things, and ultimately that your take on holy books is the only correct or proper or even reasonable take on them.

It’s not all about you though, believe it or not.

I’d argue it’s not smart to encourage the harshest interpretation of a potentially nasty religion, particularly with those who are plainly updating and softening it and making it more agreeable and rational and peaceable and such. We should support such revisions, just as we should encourage the modern revisionism regarding the term faith (even though or particularly because it’s being redefined to mean more or less its opposite). We can accept them as revisions (or revisionism if our egos need that boost of validation), but to reject them because they’re revisions according to our own personal framework is just dogmatic and militant and hostile to getting along well with the other humans.

As usual you project some bullshit on someone as an excuse to rant on about how great you. Don’t waste your ego here, just go masturbate in front of a mirror while you lie to yourself about what a great thinker you are. You’ll get much more satisfaction out of that.

 
 
SkepticX
 
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21 October 2018 14:08
 
GAD - 21 October 2018 01:09 PM

As usual you project some bullshit on someone as an excuse to rant on about how great you. Don’t waste your ego here, just go masturbate in front of a mirror while you lie to yourself about what a great thinker you are. You’ll get much more satisfaction out of that.


I get the strong sense that either you just don’t read the stuff I post that you never-the-less respond to, or you “read” the stuff I post that you respond to (read in this sense meaning to look over all the little black squiggly lines while proactively “perceiving” whatever your own mind lays over them).

Your responses to my posts don’t indicate actual reading in terms of a reasonable level of comprehension though. In fact I’d say the latter description of how you’re apparently “reading” the stuff I post that you never-the-less respond to probably hasn’t happened in a while. For a good while now it’s looked much more like the former.

So why don’t you just write a few nasty bumper sticker sloganeering type “replies” and just post them randomly in “response” to what I post? Or is that in fact actually what you’re doing, at least more or less?

Just curious.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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21 October 2018 16:14
 
GAD - 21 October 2018 01:03 PM
icehorse - 21 October 2018 12:06 PM
GAD - 21 October 2018 11:56 AM

Dude, you’ve been here long enough to know this is a kumbaya crowd. To them a good Muslim, Jew, Christian etc are the ones who don’t follow the terrible things their holy books and gods tell them to and the bad ones are the ones don’t not follow them.

A fella can hope wink

Change tact, flank them with their own beliefs. For instance, ask them if they believe that Muslims who follow the letter of the law of gods word in the Quran are bad people. They can’t answer that directly because either way, yes or no, will conflict with their kumbaya world view and they will have argue about which version of gods word is the right version and the onus is on them to prove it.

That’s an interesting approach - I might just steal that.

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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21 October 2018 19:42
 

We are past the regular season and into the reruns, here. Actually, we are way into the syndication.  Nothing new under the sun here.

 
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