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God blessed them and said to them…

 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
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30 October 2018 12:47
 

“Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it. Reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, and all the animals that scurry along the ground.”
— Genesis 1:28

I was reading yet another report concerning the loss of species on our planet today. It was released by the World Wide Fund for Nature. It states that 60% of mammals, fish, birds, amphibians and reptiles have died off since 1970. They blame “exploding” human consumption.

“Earth is losing biodiversity at a rate seen only during mass extinctions.”

https://tinyurl.com/ydefnthc

I had heard on a Joe Rogan podcast about a website that tracks the human birth rate in real time. I thought it would be interesting to get a sense of how many newly minted human beings were entering the world. I did a search and I think I found the one he was referring to. Here it is:

https://tinyurl.com/3kw8txv

The most impressive thing about the site is the odometer that’s showing human births in real time. As I write this, there have been 175,555 births so far today, and 73, 233 deaths. I don’t know what the underlying methodology is for this site. I don’t know how they keep track, but I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Wikipedia says that there are 4.3 births a second. 1.8 people die per second. More of us are joining the party than are leaving it.

There’s a lot of interesting information on this site. For example, the overall population growth rate is actually going down. In the 60s it was around 2%. Today it’s 1.09%. Even so, we will hit the 8 billion population mark by 2023 and 10 billion by 2055.

The God of the Old Testament should be happy; we followed his instructions to a T.

 
 
brazen4
 
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brazen4
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30 October 2018 15:29
 

Like lemmings they raced towards the edge, their small minds filled with the comfort and assurance of a very fine afterlife.

 
Skipshot
 
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Skipshot
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30 October 2018 19:04
 

“Earth is losing biodiversity at a rate seen only during mass extinctions,” the WWF’s Living Planet Report adds.

It urges policy makers to set new targets for sustainable development.

The bold is the sticking point of all the hang-wringing.  So what is the plan for “sustainable development?”  I’ll be the asshole and say it, then.  Stop making babies!

Population control is the best solution, but ethically and culturally we can’t do it.  Childless women get side-eyes, childless couples are considered selfish, and men with multiple children are hailed as exemplars of virility.  Meanwhile, medical advances have raised life-expectancy, lowered the infant mortality, and allowed Darwin Award candidates to live another day.

Maybe the NRA has the solution - guns for everyone!

 
brazen4
 
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brazen4
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30 October 2018 20:00
 

Stop making babies!   
Can it really be that simple?  Yup!  Also, a very good life can be had on this planet without going the usual route of having children. I readily admit that I am glad that most of my friends had at least one child as, definitely, one of the great pleasures of a life on this planet is having a relationship with children as they mature from infant to adult. It turns out that that relationship obviously is not the same as when one is the actual parent of course but it is a close and reasonable “second”. At this point in time there are huge gaps in most of humanities imagination to even consider life to be fulfilling without at least making attempts to create a “family” and to not feel somehow deficient if you don’t. It is hard not to be really pessimistic re this topic especially as data is collected re the rate of destruction of other species.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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30 October 2018 22:23
 
brazen4 - 30 October 2018 08:00 PM

Stop making babies!   
Can it really be that simple?  Yup!  Also, a very good life can be had on this planet without going the usual route of having children. I readily admit that I am glad that most of my friends had at least one child as, definitely, one of the great pleasures of a life on this planet is having a relationship with children as they mature from infant to adult. It turns out that that relationship obviously is not the same as when one is the actual parent of course but it is a close and reasonable “second”. At this point in time there are huge gaps in most of humanities imagination to even consider life to be fulfilling without at least making attempts to create a “family” and to not feel somehow deficient if you don’t. It is hard not to be really pessimistic re this topic especially as data is collected re the rate of destruction of other species.

But this conflicts kumbaya agenda. The number one producer of more people are the poor and the stupid, at a rate of 2-3 times more then the less poor and stupid. Normally most of those would die and only a couple would make it to breeding the next gen but the kumbaya crowd crusades hard to help the poor and the stupid survive and breed, which adds more people, who then have more people. The argument is that as they become less poor and stupid that they have money for Iphones and spend their time playing on their phones and buying SUV’s etc instead of having babies. The data says that should happen after 3+ Iphone generations but before that we will swell up to 10-12 billion people killing each other for an Iphone.

 
 
burt
 
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burt
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30 October 2018 22:39
 

The best method of population control is adequate birth control and education for women.

I was at a conference last week on cultural evolution and one of the presentations was interesting in terms of present day population growth. The presenter and her collaborators were interested in the onset of agriculture in Neolithic Europe. The studied multiple Neolithic sites all over Europe and got measures of population and independent measures of the onset of settled agriculture. And in almost every site they found the same pattern: a relative stable population until the beginning of agriculture, which initiated a rapid growth of population. That fits with the usual assumptions about agriculture and its effect on human populations. But what they also found was that around 100 years after the beginnings of agriculture community populations crashed and only slowly started growing again.

 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
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31 October 2018 13:16
 

Brazen and Skip, yes, the solution is to stop making babies. Just stop making babies, dammit! Good luck with that. The best solution would be to do what the Chinese government did which was to limit couples to having only one baby. That seems the most humane way to do it. But I can’t imagine this ever being implemented on a global scale, and besides, not all countries are overpopulating. The Japanese government is actually encouraging young people to have sex because their population is in a serious decline.

And GAD, it would be easy to get on my high horse and say you were being too harsh. But I’ve wondered the same thing along similar lines from time to time. Still, I think we have a moral obligation as human beings to alleviate suffering as much as possible. Perhaps a big part of this moral obligation also entails explaining to these people why reducing the number of children they produce is beneficial, even crucial. Yeah, yeah, I know.

And Burt: “But what they also found was that around 100 years after the beginnings of agriculture community populations crashed and only slowly started growing again.” Not much has changed with us as a species except the population numbers and time scale. We’re still a short-sighted species. As musician Father John Misty has written: “How predictably we step on the same rakes, slip on the same banana peels over and over again through the ages.”

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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31 October 2018 15:50
 

Poor is not synonymous with stupid.  Everywhere in the world where birth control has been made available to poor people, the birth rates have dropped.  The vast majority of people want to control their number of children if given the chance.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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31 October 2018 17:35
 
hannahtoo - 31 October 2018 03:50 PM

Poor is not synonymous with stupid.  Everywhere in the world where birth control has been made available to poor people, the birth rates have dropped.  The vast majority of people want to control their number of children if given the chance.

The population data doesn’t support that.

 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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01 November 2018 00:00
 
GAD - 31 October 2018 05:35 PM
hannahtoo - 31 October 2018 03:50 PM

Poor is not synonymous with stupid.  Everywhere in the world where birth control has been made available to poor people, the birth rates have dropped.  The vast majority of people want to control their number of children if given the chance.

The population data doesn’t support that.

Yes it does.
Birthrate is down absolutely everywhere.
I put the no.1 reason at lowering stillbirths and infant mortality.

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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01 November 2018 07:44
 
GAD - 31 October 2018 05:35 PM
hannahtoo - 31 October 2018 03:50 PM

Poor is not synonymous with stupid.  Everywhere in the world where birth control has been made available to poor people, the birth rates have dropped.  The vast majority of people want to control their number of children if given the chance.

The population data doesn’t support that.

Uneducated doesn’t mean stupid.  All humans have the same reasoning capacity (unless you’re saying some races have inherently lower IQs).  Women know when they feel trapped and overburdened with child-bearing and child-rearing.  And they naturally want the ability to control their fate.  Women don’t have to be smart to feel they’d rather bear three children who were healthy, well cared for, and educated, than give birth to eight and have four die.

For the record, the fertility rate in 1964 was over 5, and in 2015 it was 2.4.  Population is still booming due to the rate remaining greater than 2, as well as improved medical care and living conditions all over the world.  Also, stress on our ecosystems is not simply a function of numbers, but also individuals’ lifestyles.  If humans switched to an attitude of “reduce, reuse, recycle,” pressure on our planet would decrease. 

I recently read a book about the hunter-gatherer peoples in southern Africa.  I found it interesting that the groups who have recently been convinced to settle into towns have little regard for controlling their trash.  For thousand of generations, they lived a life with few possessions, other than what they could carry as they traveled.  Anything they left behind decomposed back into the environment.  They never had to contend with waste packaging or single-use products before.  For eons, their habitat provided more than enough for their needs. 

Eventually they will come to understand.  But this is the natural mindset of humans.  Control of garbage started with settlement and agriculture.  Now we are in the next phase where many people are realizing that the rivers, and even the oceans, cannot clean themselves from the magnitude of dumping we are doing.  And even the composition of the air we breathe is being significantly affected by our actions.  We are adjusting our consciousness to the whole earth and to the long-term, and it is a massive paradigm shift.

 

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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01 November 2018 08:00
 
hannahtoo - 01 November 2018 07:44 AM
GAD - 31 October 2018 05:35 PM
hannahtoo - 31 October 2018 03:50 PM

Poor is not synonymous with stupid.  Everywhere in the world where birth control has been made available to poor people, the birth rates have dropped.  The vast majority of people want to control their number of children if given the chance.

The population data doesn’t support that.

Uneducated doesn’t mean stupid.  All humans have the same reasoning capacity (unless you’re saying some races have inherently lower IQs).  Women know when they feel trapped and overburdened with child-bearing and child-rearing.  And they naturally want the ability to control their fate.  Women don’t have to be smart to feel they’d rather bear three children who were healthy, well cared for, and educated, than give birth to eight and have four die.

Your all caught up in the word I used vs the idea. I’m middle class and collage educated but still put myself in the less poor and stupid category. No need to get on a soapbox for the poor and stupid.

For the record, the fertility rate in 1964 was over 5, and in 2015 it was 2.4.  Population is still booming due to the rate remaining greater than 2, as well as improved medical care and living conditions all over the world.  Also, stress on our ecosystems is not simply a function of numbers, but also individuals’ lifestyles.  If humans switched to an attitude of “reduce, reuse, recycle,” pressure on our planet would decrease.

Yet the population continues to grow and if you check the data that growth is coming from the poor and stupid people at 2-3 times the rate of the less poor and stupid (which is why we know being less poor and stupid reduces birthrates).

 

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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01 November 2018 08:23
 

Words do matter.  Everyone in the US should be hyper aware of this right now. 

Stupid:  having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.

Fertility rates have shown a dramatic drop.  Are people becoming more intelligent, or simply more able to defer pregnancy?  Ignorance is different from stupidity and requires a different approach to deal with.

Labeling groups as stupid sets up an us-versus-them attitude, or else condescension.  However, if we assume—as appears to be the case—that people actually do want to control their number of offspring, then we can find ways to work together toward this goal.

[ Edited: 01 November 2018 08:29 by hannahtoo]
 
GAD
 
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01 November 2018 08:32
 
hannahtoo - 01 November 2018 08:23 AM

Words do matter.  Everyone in the US should be hyper aware of this right now. 

Stupid:  having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.

Fertility rates have shown a dramatic drop.  Are people becoming more intelligent, or simply more able to defer pregnancy?  Ignorance is different from stupidity and requires a different approach to deal with.

You just can’t get off that soapbox, can you. I know the difference (I have an IQ of 135-145), and I’m going to keep saying stupid because it’s how I want to phrase it (and it bothers you) smile

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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01 November 2018 08:47
 
GAD - 01 November 2018 08:32 AM
hannahtoo - 01 November 2018 08:23 AM

Words do matter.  Everyone in the US should be hyper aware of this right now. 

Stupid:  having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.

Fertility rates have shown a dramatic drop.  Are people becoming more intelligent, or simply more able to defer pregnancy?  Ignorance is different from stupidity and requires a different approach to deal with.

You just can’t get off that soapbox, can you. I know the difference (I have an IQ of 135-145), and I’m going to keep saying stupid because it’s how I want to phrase it (and it bothers you) smile

Thanks for being honest.

 
burt
 
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burt
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01 November 2018 09:17
 
hannahtoo - 01 November 2018 08:47 AM
GAD - 01 November 2018 08:32 AM
hannahtoo - 01 November 2018 08:23 AM

Words do matter.  Everyone in the US should be hyper aware of this right now. 

Stupid:  having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.

Fertility rates have shown a dramatic drop.  Are people becoming more intelligent, or simply more able to defer pregnancy?  Ignorance is different from stupidity and requires a different approach to deal with.

You just can’t get off that soapbox, can you. I know the difference (I have an IQ of 135-145), and I’m going to keep saying stupid because it’s how I want to phrase it (and it bothers you) smile

Thanks for being honest.

It’s the common sense part that carries much weight, there are many high IQ types who can, in my opinion, be considered “stupid.”

 
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