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God blessed them and said to them…

 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
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03 November 2018 12:52
 
burt - 02 November 2018 07:04 PM

Try this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

Seems like a reasonable idea to me:

“The essay suggests that the impoverished Irish might ease their economic troubles by selling their children as food for rich gentlemen and ladies.”

“A young healthy child well nursed, is, at a year old, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricassee, or a ragout.”

Perhaps someone should bring this idea up to Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan and Trump.

We could make this same proposal to that caravan of refugees coming from Honduras. Then we’d see how badly they really want to get into this country.

 

[ Edited: 03 November 2018 13:38 by Cheshire Cat]
 
 
Skipshot
 
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Skipshot
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03 November 2018 14:28
 
Cheshire Cat - 03 November 2018 12:52 PM
burt - 02 November 2018 07:04 PM

Try this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

Seems like a reasonable idea to me:

“The essay suggests that the impoverished Irish might ease their economic troubles by selling their children as food for rich gentlemen and ladies.”

“A young healthy child well nursed, is, at a year old, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricassee, or a ragout.”

Perhaps someone should bring this idea up to Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan and Trump.

We could make this same proposal to that caravan of refugees coming from Honduras. Then we’d see how badly they really want to get into this country.

 

The Dead Kennedys have a modern update; just Kill The Poor.

Sheesh. . .  Trump sent the army to stop the Honduran caravan, which is nothing less than a threat to kill them if they try to enter, since that is what soldiers do.  Soldiers don’t arrest, detain, or deport.  I’d like to see what Trump does if the refugees do try to enter.  If he orders the army to shoot he will have an international humanitarian crisis, but his supporters will love it, and provide all the trite justifications needed.  The only good illegal is a dead illegal.  And, what part of illegal don’t you understand?  And, if someone entered your house without permission then you have the castle doctrine to justify shooting them.

 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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03 November 2018 16:12
 

Do Trump’s supporters agree with a massive waste of money?  The President is sending 3x as many troops as there are people (including children) in the caravan, and deploying them many weeks before the Hondurans could possibly arrive at the border.  As of Nov 1, ten thousand American troops were on the border, with a possible five thousand more to join them.  Meanwhile, the four thousand migrants are 800 miles away, and they’re traveling 20-30 miles per day.

Are the troops building shelters?  detention camps?  trenches?  what is the strategy?  the plan?  Another slo-mo car crash.

 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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04 November 2018 12:47
 
hannahtoo - 03 November 2018 04:12 PM

Do Trump’s supporters agree with a massive waste of money?  The President is sending 3x as many troops as there are people (including children) in the caravan, and deploying them many weeks before the Hondurans could possibly arrive at the border.  As of Nov 1, ten thousand American troops were on the border, with a possible five thousand more to join them.  Meanwhile, the four thousand migrants are 800 miles away, and they’re traveling 20-30 miles per day.

Are the troops building shelters?  detention camps?  trenches?  what is the strategy?  the plan?  Another slo-mo car crash.

The caravan is a godsend for Trump.  White Americans fear millions of migrants swarming across the southern border fleeing poverty and violence - dynamiting gaps in the border wall and tunneling under it.  Imagine these displaced people worldwide as the effects of climate change worsen - billions of desperate men, women and children on the move.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-hungary-fence/hungary-builds-new-high-tech-border-fence-with-few-migrants-in-sight-idUSKBN1692MH

 

 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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05 November 2018 02:31
 

The caravan is a desperate attempt to find something to fear: it isn’t new, it isn’t close and it isn’t dangerous. The fact that Trump needed to invoke it shows how safe life in America is when you are White and Christian.

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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05 November 2018 05:46
 

For their sake, I hope most of the caravan migrants accept sanctuary in Mexico.  They’ll have a rough time of it in the US in this political climate.  They might reach the border and be bused right back to Honduras.  Or they might be held in detention indefinitely.

 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
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05 November 2018 08:02
 


Slightly off topic and something we’ve discussed before but I gotta say it.

There is something of a paradox here…. I think. Greater wealth tends to lower the birth rate but the lower birth rate doesn’t help because greater wealth (normally) means far greater consumption of resources.

Poor, over populated areas are tough to look at but ecologically aren’t they less harmful than prosperous, modern ones on balance? How many factory farms and petroleum depots and assembly lines does it take to maintain those nice new sub divisions?

I think birth rate is something of a false issue… or at least of far less import than we imagine. It’s not how many people we have, it’s how many people with a shopping mall lifestyle.

 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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05 November 2018 10:29
 
Brick Bungalow - 05 November 2018 08:02 AM


Slightly off topic and something we’ve discussed before but I gotta say it.

There is something of a paradox here…. I think. Greater wealth tends to lower the birth rate but the lower birth rate doesn’t help because greater wealth (normally) means far greater consumption of resources.

Poor, over populated areas are tough to look at but ecologically aren’t they less harmful than prosperous, modern ones on balance? How many factory farms and petroleum depots and assembly lines does it take to maintain those nice new sub divisions?

I think birth rate is something of a false issue… or at least of far less import than we imagine. It’s not how many people we have, it’s how many people with a shopping mall lifestyle.

And we in the wealthy lands are dependent on low-wage workers in those poor countries (and in our own country) to produce our heaps of consumer goods, keeping them relatively cheap.  Eventually, the clothing and shoes that were made by the poor, imported by us, purchased and worn, and discarded, are re-purposed as second-hand fashions in the market stalls for other poor people.  Meanwhile 30-40% of our food goes to waste at some point in the process from farm to table (USDA statistic).  Much of the farm work and processing is also done by poor people.

 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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05 November 2018 11:01
 

Any true Libertarian should be horrified by the fact in the global economy, the movement of money is unrestricted but the movement of labor is not.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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05 November 2018 17:14
 
hannahtoo - 05 November 2018 10:29 AM
Brick Bungalow - 05 November 2018 08:02 AM


Slightly off topic and something we’ve discussed before but I gotta say it.

There is something of a paradox here…. I think. Greater wealth tends to lower the birth rate but the lower birth rate doesn’t help because greater wealth (normally) means far greater consumption of resources.

Poor, over populated areas are tough to look at but ecologically aren’t they less harmful than prosperous, modern ones on balance? How many factory farms and petroleum depots and assembly lines does it take to maintain those nice new sub divisions?

I think birth rate is something of a false issue… or at least of far less import than we imagine. It’s not how many people we have, it’s how many people with a shopping mall lifestyle.

And we in the wealthy lands are dependent on low-wage workers in those poor countries (and in our own country) to produce our heaps of consumer goods, keeping them relatively cheap.  Eventually, the clothing and shoes that were made by the poor, imported by us, purchased and worn, and discarded, are re-purposed as second-hand fashions in the market stalls for other poor people.  Meanwhile 30-40% of our food goes to waste at some point in the process from farm to table (USDA statistic).  Much of the farm work and processing is also done by poor people.

Then they have jobs thanks to us and our waste, it’s a win-win.

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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05 November 2018 19:54
 
GAD - 05 November 2018 05:14 PM
hannahtoo - 05 November 2018 10:29 AM
Brick Bungalow - 05 November 2018 08:02 AM


Slightly off topic and something we’ve discussed before but I gotta say it.

There is something of a paradox here…. I think. Greater wealth tends to lower the birth rate but the lower birth rate doesn’t help because greater wealth (normally) means far greater consumption of resources.

Poor, over populated areas are tough to look at but ecologically aren’t they less harmful than prosperous, modern ones on balance? How many factory farms and petroleum depots and assembly lines does it take to maintain those nice new sub divisions?

I think birth rate is something of a false issue… or at least of far less import than we imagine. It’s not how many people we have, it’s how many people with a shopping mall lifestyle.

And we in the wealthy lands are dependent on low-wage workers in those poor countries (and in our own country) to produce our heaps of consumer goods, keeping them relatively cheap.  Eventually, the clothing and shoes that were made by the poor, imported by us, purchased and worn, and discarded, are re-purposed as second-hand fashions in the market stalls for other poor people.  Meanwhile 30-40% of our food goes to waste at some point in the process from farm to table (USDA statistic).  Much of the farm work and processing is also done by poor people.

Then they have jobs thanks to us and our waste, it’s a win-win.

Actually, the win-win would be paying workers a living wage under decent conditions.  And having goods that are long lasting, or repairable and update-able, rather than disposable.  And having enough wealthy people willing to live a life that is more in balance with sustaining our planet’s ecosystems.

Today I was in the ladies’ restroom, listening to a woman complain about the automatic hand blower not being warm enough to dry her hands quickly.  Really, our expectations are cuckoo.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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05 November 2018 21:41
 
hannahtoo - 05 November 2018 07:54 PM
GAD - 05 November 2018 05:14 PM
hannahtoo - 05 November 2018 10:29 AM
Brick Bungalow - 05 November 2018 08:02 AM


Slightly off topic and something we’ve discussed before but I gotta say it.

There is something of a paradox here…. I think. Greater wealth tends to lower the birth rate but the lower birth rate doesn’t help because greater wealth (normally) means far greater consumption of resources.

Poor, over populated areas are tough to look at but ecologically aren’t they less harmful than prosperous, modern ones on balance? How many factory farms and petroleum depots and assembly lines does it take to maintain those nice new sub divisions?

I think birth rate is something of a false issue… or at least of far less import than we imagine. It’s not how many people we have, it’s how many people with a shopping mall lifestyle.

And we in the wealthy lands are dependent on low-wage workers in those poor countries (and in our own country) to produce our heaps of consumer goods, keeping them relatively cheap.  Eventually, the clothing and shoes that were made by the poor, imported by us, purchased and worn, and discarded, are re-purposed as second-hand fashions in the market stalls for other poor people.  Meanwhile 30-40% of our food goes to waste at some point in the process from farm to table (USDA statistic).  Much of the farm work and processing is also done by poor people.

Then they have jobs thanks to us and our waste, it’s a win-win.

Actually, the win-win would be paying workers a living wage under decent conditions.  And having goods that are long lasting, or repairable and update-able, rather than disposable.  And having enough wealthy people willing to live a life that is more in balance with sustaining our planet’s ecosystems.

Today I was in the ladies’ restroom, listening to a woman complain about the automatic hand blower not being warm enough to dry her hands quickly.  Really, our expectations are cuckoo.

Actually raising costs and making things last longer would destroy the economies of scale that drive innovation and technology forward.

As for automatic hand blowers think of how many people they put of of work, to continually make, ship, use and then carry to the land fill all that paper they replaced. Also note that if say they use 150 watts of power but take 30s to dry your hands using 300w for 15s is the same energy cost, so why not make them faster? I don’t wait, I get the bulk water off then wipes my hands on my pants so I can get going faster. The lady complaining doesn’t understand all that and just didn’t like being inconvenienced, but you don’t understand it either and our just preaching because it sounds good and makes you feel better, so really neither of you are that different in that regard.   

 

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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06 November 2018 06:56
 

GAD:
Actually raising costs and making things last longer would destroy the economies of scale that drive innovation and technology forward.

As for automatic hand blowers think of how many people they put of of work, to continually make, ship, use and then carry to the land fill all that paper they replaced. Also note that if say they use 150 watts of power but take 30s to dry your hands using 300w for 15s is the same energy cost, so why not make them faster? I don’t wait, I get the bulk water off then wipes my hands on my pants so I can get going faster. The lady complaining doesn’t understand all that and just didn’t like being inconvenienced, but you don’t understand it either and our just preaching because it sounds good and makes you feel better, so really neither of you are that different in that regard. 

1.  If the only way for humans to sustain civilization is to exploit a large percentage of people and continually grow, then we are doomed.  Maybe more think tanks should be devoted to sustainable lifestyles.  Humanity has switched from being hunter/gatherers to agriculturists and now largely to urbanites.  I hope the next change will be toward sustainability.

2.  You are right, the high efficiency hand dryers save energy overall when compared with paper towels.  However, they also spray your hands with a concentration of restroom bacteria.  They are essentially germ cannons. 
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-bacterial-horror-of-the-hot-air-hand-dryer-2018051113823

My criticism was aimed at the assumption that we should expect ultimate comfort or complain.  Meanwhile, the headlines have me thinking of exhausted Hondurans sleeping on the ground and squatting by the roadside.  IOW, be grateful momentarily for a warm, reasonably clean restroom with running water.  I realize the woman was probably trying to be sociable, expecting me to commiserate.  I’m just to sensitive to all the bad news lately, I guess.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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06 November 2018 07:16
 
hannahtoo - 06 November 2018 06:56 AM

GAD:
Actually raising costs and making things last longer would destroy the economies of scale that drive innovation and technology forward.

As for automatic hand blowers think of how many people they put of of work, to continually make, ship, use and then carry to the land fill all that paper they replaced. Also note that if say they use 150 watts of power but take 30s to dry your hands using 300w for 15s is the same energy cost, so why not make them faster? I don’t wait, I get the bulk water off then wipes my hands on my pants so I can get going faster. The lady complaining doesn’t understand all that and just didn’t like being inconvenienced, but you don’t understand it either and our just preaching because it sounds good and makes you feel better, so really neither of you are that different in that regard. 

1.  If the only way for humans to sustain civilization is to exploit a large percentage of people and continually grow, then we are doomed.  Maybe more think tanks should be devoted to sustainable lifestyles.  Humanity has switched from being hunter/gatherers to agriculturists and now largely to urbanites.  I hope the next change will be toward sustainability.

Yet that is how the world was built over all of human history and look what we have achieved. And it is guaranteed that in every era someone was saying we are doomed. 

2.  You are right, the high efficiency hand dryers save energy overall when compared with paper towels.  However, they also spray your hands with a concentration of restroom bacteria.  They are essentially germ cannons. 
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-bacterial-horror-of-the-hot-air-hand-dryer-2018051113823

The take away is that all the bacteria was in the air you were breathing.

My criticism was aimed at the assumption that we should expect ultimate comfort or complain.  Meanwhile, the headlines have me thinking of exhausted Hondurans sleeping on the ground and squatting by the roadside.  IOW, be grateful momentarily for a warm, reasonably clean restroom with running water.  I realize the woman was probably trying to be sociable, expecting me to commiserate.  I’m just to sensitive to all the bad news lately, I guess.

You are a sensitive person, that’s not a bad thing it just needs to be tempered with reason. We can’t save everyone and no one wants to be the one not saved but someone has to be or we all go down.

 

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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06 November 2018 09:40
 

Quote from the Harvard article:
“Paper towels are the most hygienic way to dry your hands.”  I’m far from being germ phobic (I go camping and use porta johns or the woods quite a lot).  But I don’t even see the point of washing one’s hands if the end step is to blow germs back on.  That’s the true waste.

And I’m not convinced that growth is the only way for human society to function successfully.  Especially, growth of material possessions.  That is one way to live, for sure.  Just as aggression and deceit are ways to obtain what one wants.  But we want what we are taught to want.  And living lightly could become a value taught to our children, for the survival of mankind.

In the world today, people are being taught, more and more, that being gay is not a sin, nor a corruption, but a variation.  This was not the case for thousands of years in many successful cultures, probably left-over from the time when universal reproduction was paramount to survival of the species, and heterosexual pairing was the only means to that end.  Now that there are definitely enough people on earth as well as means to reproduce beyond the traditional, we can view homosexuality benignly.  And more and more people do, all the time.

Personally, I think there is hope that basic attitudes can change.  Furthermore, I think environmental catastrophes in the not-too-distant future will convince people of the importance of changing.

 
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