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Can’t win for losing - being Black in America

 
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04 November 2018 07:42
 

An interesting article about how black men are held down, while black boys are raised up, but not in a good way.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2018/11/02/417513631/when-boys-cant-be-boys?utm_source=npr_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20181103&utm_campaign=npr_email_a_friend&utm_term=storyshare

In a study from 2014, psychologists asked police officers to look at photographs of boys between the ages of 10 and 17. The officers were told, at random, that the boys in the pictures were suspected of either a petty crime or a felony. Then the participants were asked to guess the ages of the boys in the photos. The officers consistently perceived black boys as older than they were — by an average of 4.5 years.

Those black boys were seen as legal adults when they were a little over 13 years old. (In the same study, the officers saw white boys in the photographs as younger than they actually were.)

This aging up of black boys has serious consequences, the study’s authors said, including making it more likely that black boys would have force used on them in police encounters.

“Our research found that black boys can be seen as responsible for their actions at an age when white boys still benefit from the assumption that children are essentially innocent,” one of the researchers wrote.

 
GAD
 
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04 November 2018 08:19
 

Seems right up there with that Implicit Bias Test that said everyone was an unconscious racist and everyone needed to get fixed through training, that has now been shown to be a pile of shit and discredited.

[ Edited: 04 November 2018 13:54 by GAD]
 
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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04 November 2018 12:47
 
GAD - 04 November 2018 08:19 AM

Seems right up there with that Implicit Bias Test that said everyone was an unconscious racist and everyone needed to get fixed through=gh training, that has now been shown to be a pile of shut and discredited.

You’re not far from the truth.  The study is pure garbage.  All they did was measure associations and then, without evidence or compelling argument, linked these associations to behaviors and racial disparities.  And what’s worse, they measured the associations in different participants each time, which leaves entirely open whether any one person behaving in any given way towards blacks in fact has all of these associations at all, much less that there is a causal link between their so called cumulative effect and any given behavior (for all the IAT data, for instance, there is no casual link; that has been looked at plenty of times, including by one of the test’s original advocates).  Anyway, they find statistically significant effects (associations) on unproven (and in fact discredited) measures that “measure” vague, hardly measurable constructs in the first place; then they patch these separate findings into one theoretical narrative—that black children are dehumanized, with dire consequences, i.e. behaviors toward young blacks are caused by these associations, and they explain racial disparities.  But the study only proves the simple maxim: garbage in, garbage out.  There is nothing interesting or worthwhile in it.  It was a total waste of time reading it.

[ Edited: 04 November 2018 12:51 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
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04 November 2018 14:02
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 04 November 2018 12:47 PM
GAD - 04 November 2018 08:19 AM

Seems right up there with that Implicit Bias Test that said everyone was an unconscious racist and everyone needed to get fixed through=gh training, that has now been shown to be a pile of shut and discredited.

You’re not far from the truth.  The study is pure garbage.  All they did was measure associations and then, without evidence or compelling argument, linked these associations to behaviors and racial disparities.  And what’s worse, they measured the associations in different participants each time, which leaves entirely open whether any one person behaving in any given way towards blacks in fact has all of these associations at all, much less that there is a causal link between their so called cumulative effect and any given behavior (for all the IAT data, for instance, there is no casual link; that has been looked at plenty of times, including by one of the test’s original advocates).  Anyway, they find statistically significant effects (associations) on unproven (and in fact discredited) measures that “measure” vague, hardly measurable constructs in the first place; then they patch these separate findings into one theoretical narrative—that black children are dehumanized, with dire consequences, i.e. behaviors toward young blacks are caused by these associations, and they explain racial disparities.  But the study only proves the simple maxim: garbage in, garbage out.  There is nothing interesting or worthwhile in it.  It was a total waste of time reading it.

But we can’t help ourselves, racism is big business now, so much so that it gets manufactured packaged and sold like diets and supplements.

 
 
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05 November 2018 10:17
 

There is so much to pick at here, but I’ll just focus on the most obvious.  People of different races age differently…....

I worked a gas station for a couple years a while back and I carded anyone who looked under 30.  I once carded an Asian woman who was 45….she looked 23.

Look at a guy like Lebron James or Greg Oden.  Either one of them could pass for 40.

But even if you want to deny that people of different races age differently, what can we actually do with these results?  Have only black officers in majority black districts?  If there’s no solution being put forward with just complaining, all that does is increase toxicity in the national conversation.  So I would say to anyone who references such studies…....either provide a solution, or stop whining about it.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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05 November 2018 10:22
 

The racial discrimination we witness renders studies like this a mere formality.  It illustrates what can already be observed in abundance with crystal clarity to anyone with working eyeballs.  As long as they aren’t obstructed by the foggy lenses of white privilege.

 
 
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05 November 2018 14:20
 

Actually, “mere formality” is generally reserved for things done right, though done unnecessarily, save to acknowledge certain forms.  Studies like this by contrast represent distortions of important issues, ones motivated by denizens too deluded to let go of bad constructs like “implicit attitudes” that supposedly get amplified by pure fictions like “white privilege.”  Anyone with a modicum of scientific training should be able to see that.

[ Edited: 05 November 2018 16:15 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
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05 November 2018 14:25
 
GAD - 04 November 2018 02:02 PM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 04 November 2018 12:47 PM
GAD - 04 November 2018 08:19 AM

Seems right up there with that Implicit Bias Test that said everyone was an unconscious racist and everyone needed to get fixed through=gh training, that has now been shown to be a pile of shut and discredited.

You’re not far from the truth.  The study is pure garbage.  All they did was measure associations and then, without evidence or compelling argument, linked these associations to behaviors and racial disparities.  And what’s worse, they measured the associations in different participants each time, which leaves entirely open whether any one person behaving in any given way towards blacks in fact has all of these associations at all, much less that there is a causal link between their so called cumulative effect and any given behavior (for all the IAT data, for instance, there is no casual link; that has been looked at plenty of times, including by one of the test’s original advocates).  Anyway, they find statistically significant effects (associations) on unproven (and in fact discredited) measures that “measure” vague, hardly measurable constructs in the first place; then they patch these separate findings into one theoretical narrative—that black children are dehumanized, with dire consequences, i.e. behaviors toward young blacks are caused by these associations, and they explain racial disparities.  But the study only proves the simple maxim: garbage in, garbage out.  There is nothing interesting or worthwhile in it.  It was a total waste of time reading it.

But we can’t help ourselves, racism is big business now, so much so that it gets manufactured packaged and sold like diets and supplements.

I think that might be overstating things.  The “racism treadmill,” as Coleman Hughes puts it, is the predilection of an irrelevant but vocal minority that will pass in time because of its own policy irrelevance.

[ Edited: 05 November 2018 15:10 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
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05 November 2018 17:17
 
LadyJane - 05 November 2018 10:22 AM

The racial discrimination we witness renders studies like this a mere formality.  It illustrates what can already be observed in abundance with crystal clarity to anyone with working eyeballs.  As long as they aren’t obstructed by the foggy lenses of white privilege.

Like any good biased, racist, agenda driven extremest you don’t let data get in your way.

 
 
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05 November 2018 17:26
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 05 November 2018 02:25 PM
GAD - 04 November 2018 02:02 PM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 04 November 2018 12:47 PM
GAD - 04 November 2018 08:19 AM

Seems right up there with that Implicit Bias Test that said everyone was an unconscious racist and everyone needed to get fixed through=gh training, that has now been shown to be a pile of shut and discredited.

You’re not far from the truth.  The study is pure garbage.  All they did was measure associations and then, without evidence or compelling argument, linked these associations to behaviors and racial disparities.  And what’s worse, they measured the associations in different participants each time, which leaves entirely open whether any one person behaving in any given way towards blacks in fact has all of these associations at all, much less that there is a causal link between their so called cumulative effect and any given behavior (for all the IAT data, for instance, there is no casual link; that has been looked at plenty of times, including by one of the test’s original advocates).  Anyway, they find statistically significant effects (associations) on unproven (and in fact discredited) measures that “measure” vague, hardly measurable constructs in the first place; then they patch these separate findings into one theoretical narrative—that black children are dehumanized, with dire consequences, i.e. behaviors toward young blacks are caused by these associations, and they explain racial disparities.  But the study only proves the simple maxim: garbage in, garbage out.  There is nothing interesting or worthwhile in it.  It was a total waste of time reading it.

But we can’t help ourselves, racism is big business now, so much so that it gets manufactured packaged and sold like diets and supplements.

I think that might be overstating things.  The “racism treadmill,” as Coleman Hughes puts it, is the predilection of an irrelevant but vocal minority that will pass in time because of its own policy irrelevance.

I don’t know about that, look at the title of this thread, look at the data posted for it, or the IBT, the books sold, or scan the news headlines White does x to Black, and any data that shows or even raises the question of minority responsibility is deemed white racism and suppressed. Look at LadyJ, she couldn’t care less about data or reason, the reason black people don’t rule a utopian world is because of white privilege, period. 


 
 
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06 November 2018 04:50
 
GAD - 05 November 2018 05:26 PM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 05 November 2018 02:25 PM
GAD - 04 November 2018 02:02 PM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 04 November 2018 12:47 PM
GAD - 04 November 2018 08:19 AM

Seems right up there with that Implicit Bias Test that said everyone was an unconscious racist and everyone needed to get fixed through=gh training, that has now been shown to be a pile of shut and discredited.

You’re not far from the truth.  The study is pure garbage.  All they did was measure associations and then, without evidence or compelling argument, linked these associations to behaviors and racial disparities.  And what’s worse, they measured the associations in different participants each time, which leaves entirely open whether any one person behaving in any given way towards blacks in fact has all of these associations at all, much less that there is a causal link between their so called cumulative effect and any given behavior (for all the IAT data, for instance, there is no casual link; that has been looked at plenty of times, including by one of the test’s original advocates).  Anyway, they find statistically significant effects (associations) on unproven (and in fact discredited) measures that “measure” vague, hardly measurable constructs in the first place; then they patch these separate findings into one theoretical narrative—that black children are dehumanized, with dire consequences, i.e. behaviors toward young blacks are caused by these associations, and they explain racial disparities.  But the study only proves the simple maxim: garbage in, garbage out.  There is nothing interesting or worthwhile in it.  It was a total waste of time reading it.

But we can’t help ourselves, racism is big business now, so much so that it gets manufactured packaged and sold like diets and supplements.

I think that might be overstating things.  The “racism treadmill,” as Coleman Hughes puts it, is the predilection of an irrelevant but vocal minority that will pass in time because of its own policy irrelevance.

I don’t know about that, look at the title of this thread, look at the data posted for it, or the IBT, the books sold, or scan the news headlines White does x to Black, and any data that shows or even raises the question of minority responsibility is deemed white racism and suppressed. Look at LadyJ, she couldn’t care less about data or reason, the reason black people don’t rule a utopian world is because of white privilege, period. 


I guess I don’t experience or see the suppression in the area I live.  There is a wide diversity of people here with a wide diversity of views.  It votes blue in every election I recall, quite different from most of the state.  Yet the kind of intractability and hysteria you describe is absent. 

Anyway, I did say the minority is vocal.  Many of them are in journalism.  Basically if it’s about race in popular journalism, I ignore it because they are about as likely to get that right as they are the finer points of quantum entanglement or the Critique of Pure Reason.  I could count exceptions to this rule on one hand (but I admit I rarely even read them anymore, so the trend may be changing). 

This is my favorite example, a go-to of its kind.  Note the word “racism” doesn’t even appear in the 100+ page study it refers to, and the conclusions reached in that study are about the nuances of poverty and class, not race (in fact, it leaves the racial difference among young black men—a main finding—as something yet to be explained).  This is what I mean by a vocal minority.  I should have added “disproportionate presence,” given outlets like the NYT.  Journalists de facto look prevalent because they trade in articles that reach a broad audience.  But they are in fact quite a minority of Americans.
 
As for LadyJane specifically, I prefer not to classify posters into any kind of type, much less guess about their motives or hidden thoughts.  I try to apply this universally, whether I agree with them or not.  I’m pretty much a local what’s-on-the-board-is-what-you-get kind of participant, and I try to keep any private musings about them private.  We differ quite a bit on that, it seems.  In any case, excepting my own rule I tend to like what she posts and appreciate her participation here.  So we differ on that too, I think.

 

[ Edited: 06 November 2018 05:42 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
bbearren
 
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07 November 2018 08:15
 

Apparently no one participating in this thread is black.

It also would appear that no one participating in this thread lives in the deep south.

 
 
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07 November 2018 16:24
 
bbearren - 07 November 2018 08:15 AM

Apparently no one participating in this thread is black.

It also would appear that no one participating in this thread lives in the deep south.

Good point. Let the Blacks speak for themselves.  And they are. Let’s listen.

 
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08 November 2018 06:34
 
Skipshot - 07 November 2018 04:24 PM
bbearren - 07 November 2018 08:15 AM

Apparently no one participating in this thread is black.

It also would appear that no one participating in this thread lives in the deep south.

Good point. Let the Blacks speak for themselves.  And they are. Let’s listen.

Voters kill remnants of Jim Crow in Florida and Louisiana

 
 
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11 November 2018 22:35
 
Skipshot - 07 November 2018 04:24 PM

Let the Blacks speak for themselves.  And they are. Let’s listen.

The instant you tell me (because I’m white) to listen to someone (because they’re black), you are applying two different standards to two different races.  The instant you do that, other people will accept that premise and use it however they wish.  It’d be one thing if you could control other peoples’ implementation of that premise without taking away freedom of speech, association, and expression but you can’t.  Your solution called “Whites must do x to/for Blacks” creates a host of problems which are more difficult to solve.  Me being white has absolutely nothing to do my ability to understand the plights of people less fortunate than myself.  You’re either assuming some obligation by whites (because of their race), or you’re assuming whites have less empathy or are particularly racist.  What exactly is it that you’re trying to say about whites, as a group?

 
 
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11 November 2018 23:34
 
Quadrewple - 11 November 2018 10:35 PM
Skipshot - 07 November 2018 04:24 PM

Let the Blacks speak for themselves.  And they are. Let’s listen.

The instant you tell me (because I’m white) to listen to someone (because they’re black), you are applying two different standards to two different races.  The instant you do that, other people will accept that premise and use it however they wish.  It’d be one thing if you could control other peoples’ implementation of that premise without taking away freedom of speech, association, and expression but you can’t.  Your solution called “Whites must do x to/for Blacks” creates a host of problems which are more difficult to solve.  Me being white has absolutely nothing to do my ability to understand the plights of people less fortunate than myself.  You’re either assuming some obligation by whites (because of their race), or you’re assuming whites have less empathy or are particularly racist.  What exactly is it that you’re trying to say about whites, as a group?

Voters kill remnants of Jim Crow in Florida and Louisiana

The white southerners who changed their views on racism

 
 
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