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#141- Is #Me Too Going Too Far? A Conversation with Rebecca Traister

 
HairBrushedAndParted
 
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HairBrushedAndParted
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08 November 2018 10:25
 
SamStone - 05 November 2018 02:30 PM

I thought it interesting that, in a long conversation about the Kavanaugh hearing, there was not a single question of the evidence against him…

That stood out for me too.  As if his guilt / innocence or otherwise was merely a detail vs. “the larger narrative”.  I think a lot of people feminists and normal people alike know they can’t argue he’s guilty so just skip that part.

[ Edited: 08 November 2018 10:41 by HairBrushedAndParted]
 
brazen4
 
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brazen4
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08 November 2018 10:27
 

Russo, Yeah, you can always just shoot the messenger. This woman is a well respected individual who is very good at expressing her point of view. If you want toe to toe battle re this topic I suggest you locate Rhonda Rousey and, ya know, express yourself, let it all hang out.

[ Edited: 08 November 2018 10:30 by brazen4]
 
HairBrushedAndParted
 
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HairBrushedAndParted
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08 November 2018 10:27
 

Her voice sounds uncannily like the “Strong Woman” character from South Park.

 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
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08 November 2018 11:50
 
HairBrushedAndParted - 08 November 2018 10:25 AM
SamStone - 05 November 2018 02:30 PM

I thought it interesting that, in a long conversation about the Kavanaugh hearing, there was not a single question of the evidence against him…

That stood out for me too.  As if his guilt / innocence or otherwise was merely a detail vs. “the larger narrative”.  I think a lot of people feminists and normal people alike know they can’t argue he’s guilty so just skip that part.

During the big hearing, Senator Klobuchar was attempting to develop bits and pieces of evidence surrounding Kavanaugh’s imbibing history. She didn’t get too far, obviously. At least she shined a glaring light on the extremely relevant alcohol-blackout issue even if Kavanaugh was uncooperative.

 

 
Russco79
 
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08 November 2018 12:41
 

Sometimes fault lies with the messenger.  She talks endlessly about power but has no real grasp on it.  Put 10 strangers in a room and after 2 hours conversation a power hierarchy will have developed based upon who people like the most.  The most popular members will have substantially more power too, if they wanted to they could probably instruct people what to do (covertly), whereas with the least popular ones people may actually go out of their way to annoy them depending how rude they are.  This kind of hierarchy is crucial to civilised life, as are endless other hierarchies that exist in our complex social world, the vast vast majority of hierarchies are positive.  But in her worldview all power is unjust and corrupt.  Sad.

 
LadyJane
 
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08 November 2018 15:29
 

Traditionally the power struggles that go on within groups of people have been among men. A room that contains ten people jockeying for positions of power are men who already possess some elevated degree of power. And women have traditionally not been invited into such rooms.

 
 
GAD
 
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08 November 2018 16:14
 
LadyJane - 08 November 2018 03:29 PM

Traditionally the power struggles that go on within groups of people have been among men. A room that contains ten people jockeying for positions of power are men who already possess some elevated degree of power. And women have traditionally not been invited into such rooms.

In modern times women have achieved everything that men have, is it prefect, no, and it never will because prefect is personal. The issue now is that there is not enough systematic sexism to support the huge boohoo poor women industry and just like with racism sexism has to be mined, processed, manufactured and packaged in order to keep men evil and the heroes, careers, clicks, likes and profits flowing. So congratulations women, you are now just as biased, extreme and agenda driven assholes as men.

 
 
Russco79
 
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09 November 2018 03:33
 
LadyJane - 08 November 2018 03:29 PM

Traditionally the power struggles that go on within groups of people have been among men. A room that contains ten people jockeying for positions of power are men who already possess some elevated degree of power. And women have traditionally not been invited into such rooms.

Come on.  You know full well that if the room was 10 females an identical power struggle would proceed, just with different mechanisms.  Status, dominance, struggling for power, however you want to phrase it is an integral part of what it is to be an evolved lifeform, it’s how your genes got you here.  Men are physically stronger than women and until maybe the 20th century 99.9% of the actions that were needed to provide food involved physical labour.  It has nothing do with tyrannical behaviour that men traditionally occupied positions of power, it was out of dire need.  Tyrannical behaviour would have meant men keeping women like sex slaves.  In the west the absolute reverse is true, men defended their families, died in wars in their millions, worked horrendously long hours in dangerous jobs yet put food on the table every night and in the vast majority of cases married one woman and loved her till death.  That is supposed to be a patriarchy?  Maybe do some reading into other cultures where polygamy and honour killing is still the norm.

 
Twissel
 
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09 November 2018 03:59
 

Nonsense Russco.

Both men and women have always performed physical labor. It was only since the industrial revolution and the invention of tractors and fertilizers that suddenly the world could function with half the population staying at home. Women die in wars just as men do - and the only reason why they aren’t sent to the front is that they have to supply the next generation of cannon fodder.
And for almost all of Western History, women were property of their husbands and fathers, just like in plenty other cultures - the idea that marrying for love is the norm is incredibly new.

Maybe women in power won’t do things better - but why not give them and us the chance to find out?

 
 
Pianella
 
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09 November 2018 05:38
 
HairBrushedAndParted - 08 November 2018 10:25 AM
SamStone - 05 November 2018 02:30 PM

I thought it interesting that, in a long conversation about the Kavanaugh hearing, there was not a single question of the evidence against him…

That stood out for me too.  As if his guilt / innocence or otherwise was merely a detail vs. “the larger narrative”.  I think a lot of people feminists and normal people alike know they can’t argue he’s guilty so just skip that part.

+1. It bothered me that Sam let Rebecca Traister gloss over the issue of due process, especially in light of the recanting of accusations by two of there three Kavanaugh accusers.  I think Traister raised some very interesting points about Damon’s comments but at the end of the day she is suggesting that it is OK for the public to decide on what is the just punishment for alleged misdeeds.  It’s easy for her to dismiss Barr’s loss of millions of dollars and her career as trivial because she wasn’t sent to jail but that attitude seems not only to dismiss any pretense of due process but to sign off on the idea that the often ill-informed masses should be empowered…..and yet she rails against calling them a mob?

 
Twissel
 
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09 November 2018 05:57
 

What due process? Who is indicted?

Unless you are charged with a crime in court, it’s all Free Speech, not Presumption of Innocence.

Otherwise, no one would be allowed to ever say anything bad about anyone.

 
 
RedSeed
 
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09 November 2018 06:40
 
Twissel - 09 November 2018 03:59 AM

Nonsense Russco.

Both men and women have always performed physical labor. It was only since the industrial revolution and the invention of tractors and fertilizers that suddenly the world could function with half the population staying at home. Women die in wars just as men do - and the only reason why they aren’t sent to the front is that they have to supply the next generation of cannon fodder.
And for almost all of Western History, women were property of their husbands and fathers, just like in plenty other cultures - the idea that marrying for love is the norm is incredibly new.

Maybe women in power won’t do things better - but why not give them and us the chance to find out?

Surely you have to make more of a distinction there though Twissel, men have - and unless something extreme happens with our biology - always will be the best choice for the hardest labour and fighting wars because of genetic traits like more aggression, more speed, more strength, lower recovery times and the inability to get pregnant (especially important when and where contraception is inexistent, rare or unreliable) etc. Britain is lowering the fitness requirements of the army to get more women on the frontline for example (I think double digits of women a year are passing it currently), which is a bad thing imo - because of the lower and less uniform standards, not because of the women being in the army!

So yeah I feel like there’s much less of an equivalency there than you might suggest. I should add leadership itself also benefits immensely in certain situations from having male traits, so I’m not surprised at all that historically the strongest, most aggressive of us have often had leadership positions when very survival has been at stake. We don’t need to be as war-like at the top now of course, in times of unprecedented peace and cooperation, but it’s worth saying that it had a useful reason, it isn’t just more evidence of prejudice.

Personally I’m all for half (or more!) of the top government positions being women, genitals matter not to me, but the suitable people have to want to do it - if that doesn’t happen that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Same goes with CEOs, coal miners and lumberjacks, doctors, beauticians and nurses - men and women are often drawn to different types of jobs, ones they’re suited to and are satisfied by. I can only see lowering of standards, extremely unfair hiring practices or failing that, conscription(!) achieving anything near a 50% split in all jobs and let’s not let that happen (though it’s not exactly moving away from that direction).

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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09 November 2018 07:08
 
Russco79 - 09 November 2018 03:33 AM
LadyJane - 08 November 2018 03:29 PM

Traditionally the power struggles that go on within groups of people have been among men. A room that contains ten people jockeying for positions of power are men who already possess some elevated degree of power. And women have traditionally not been invited into such rooms.

Come on.  You know full well that if the room was 10 females an identical power struggle would proceed, just with different mechanisms.  Status, dominance, struggling for power, however you want to phrase it is an integral part of what it is to be an evolved lifeform, it’s how your genes got you here.  Men are physically stronger than women and until maybe the 20th century 99.9% of the actions that were needed to provide food involved physical labour.  It has nothing do with tyrannical behaviour that men traditionally occupied positions of power, it was out of dire need.  Tyrannical behaviour would have meant men keeping women like sex slaves.  In the west the absolute reverse is true, men defended their families, died in wars in their millions, worked horrendously long hours in dangerous jobs yet put food on the table every night and in the vast majority of cases married one woman and loved her till death.  That is supposed to be a patriarchy?  Maybe do some reading into other cultures where polygamy and honour killing is still the norm.

A room full of 10 females does usually interact with “different mechanisms” than a room full of 10 males.  And this difference makes a difference.  Women often work more cooperatively, less aggressive and dominance-based.  Particularly suitable for democratic politics as opposed to autocracies.

As Twissel said, “Both men and women have always performed physical labor”.  As many anthropologists will tell you, women have often done more work than men, but work that was not acknowledged by men as being equal.

It doesn’t have to be viewed as a matter of whether men or women do things better, but that different approaches can benefit from and complement each other.

[ Edited: 09 November 2018 07:48 by Jan_CAN]
 
 
Russco79
 
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09 November 2018 22:38
 
Jan_CAN - 09 November 2018 07:08 AM
Russco79 - 09 November 2018 03:33 AM
LadyJane - 08 November 2018 03:29 PM

Traditionally the power struggles that go on within groups of people have been among men. A room that contains ten people jockeying for positions of power are men who already possess some elevated degree of power. And women have traditionally not been invited into such rooms.

Come on.  You know full well that if the room was 10 females an identical power struggle would proceed, just with different mechanisms.  Status, dominance, struggling for power, however you want to phrase it is an integral part of what it is to be an evolved lifeform, it’s how your genes got you here.  Men are physically stronger than women and until maybe the 20th century 99.9% of the actions that were needed to provide food involved physical labour.  It has nothing do with tyrannical behaviour that men traditionally occupied positions of power, it was out of dire need.  Tyrannical behaviour would have meant men keeping women like sex slaves.  In the west the absolute reverse is true, men defended their families, died in wars in their millions, worked horrendously long hours in dangerous jobs yet put food on the table every night and in the vast majority of cases married one woman and loved her till death.  That is supposed to be a patriarchy?  Maybe do some reading into other cultures where polygamy and honour killing is still the norm.

A room full of 10 females does usually interact with “different mechanisms” than a room full of 10 males.  And this difference makes a difference.  Women often work more cooperatively, less aggressive and dominance-based.  Particularly suitable for democratic politics as opposed to autocracies.

As Twissel said, “Both men and women have always performed physical labor”.  As many anthropologists will tell you, women have often done more work than men, but work that was not acknowledged by men as being equal.

It doesn’t have to be viewed as a matter of whether men or women do things better, but that different approaches can benefit from and complement each other.


Ok great.  So from all of your responses it seems no one thinks we live in a tyrannical patriarchy, that’s a good start.  So when you hear people who are passionately leftwing but espousing a complete misrepresentation of reality what do you think?  Because here’s the thing.  The reason leftwing politics is suffering at the polls is precisely because a tiny minority radicals are running the show.  Silence them and people will immediately start returning to the centre.

 
Twissel
 
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09 November 2018 23:24
 

The point, Russco, is that the Burden of Proof is on the Patriarchy to show that it isn’t hampering the potential of women and, by extension, society as a whole. You cannot just declare that for most of (Western) history, men have been good to women, and that they should be glad they don’t live in even more patriarchical societies.

And, btw, the Midterms have shown that women in politics are doing fine at the polls.

 
 
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