‹ First  < 3 4 5
 
   
 

Hamas and Sam Harris

 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7618
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
13 December 2018 07:17
 
burt - 12 December 2018 07:42 PM

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/islam-muslim-terrorism-islamist-extremism-quran-teaching-violence-meaning-prophet-muhammed-a7676246.html?fbclid=IwAR2rk8jzYoVyFs3HR-nUslaug35U-emQ0gFAFb3OQBZrgBqeUUnywsIq9uw

For the sake of discussion, let’s say this author’s interpretation is correct. (I think he’s cherry picking, btw.)

If he’s correct, then he has to explain why about half the world’s Muslims interpret the book differently.

 
 
GAD
 
Avatar
 
 
GAD
Total Posts:  17531
Joined  15-02-2008
 
 
 
13 December 2018 08:05
burt
 
Avatar
 
 
burt
Total Posts:  15809
Joined  17-12-2006
 
 
 
13 December 2018 09:49
 
icehorse - 13 December 2018 07:17 AM
burt - 12 December 2018 07:42 PM

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/islam-muslim-terrorism-islamist-extremism-quran-teaching-violence-meaning-prophet-muhammed-a7676246.html?fbclid=IwAR2rk8jzYoVyFs3HR-nUslaug35U-emQ0gFAFb3OQBZrgBqeUUnywsIq9uw

For the sake of discussion, let’s say this author’s interpretation is correct. (I think he’s cherry picking, btw.)

If he’s correct, then he has to explain why about half the world’s Muslims interpret the book differently.

Not sure about your “half” but figured that given the attitude often expressed here, the other side deserved a voice.

 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7618
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
13 December 2018 10:30
 
burt - 13 December 2018 09:49 AM
icehorse - 13 December 2018 07:17 AM
burt - 12 December 2018 07:42 PM

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/islam-muslim-terrorism-islamist-extremism-quran-teaching-violence-meaning-prophet-muhammed-a7676246.html?fbclid=IwAR2rk8jzYoVyFs3HR-nUslaug35U-emQ0gFAFb3OQBZrgBqeUUnywsIq9uw

For the sake of discussion, let’s say this author’s interpretation is correct. (I think he’s cherry picking, btw.)

If he’s correct, then he has to explain why about half the world’s Muslims interpret the book differently.

Not sure about your “half” but figured that given the attitude often expressed here, the other side deserved a voice.

But I think we can all acknowledge that - in general - it’s the extremists that we need to worry about, not the moderates, and in this case, there are hundreds of millions of “Islamists”, which has been defined as those Muslims who would prefer to live in theocracies.

 
 
burt
 
Avatar
 
 
burt
Total Posts:  15809
Joined  17-12-2006
 
 
 
13 December 2018 20:17
 
icehorse - 13 December 2018 10:30 AM
burt - 13 December 2018 09:49 AM
icehorse - 13 December 2018 07:17 AM
burt - 12 December 2018 07:42 PM

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/islam-muslim-terrorism-islamist-extremism-quran-teaching-violence-meaning-prophet-muhammed-a7676246.html?fbclid=IwAR2rk8jzYoVyFs3HR-nUslaug35U-emQ0gFAFb3OQBZrgBqeUUnywsIq9uw

For the sake of discussion, let’s say this author’s interpretation is correct. (I think he’s cherry picking, btw.)

If he’s correct, then he has to explain why about half the world’s Muslims interpret the book differently.

Not sure about your “half” but figured that given the attitude often expressed here, the other side deserved a voice.

But I think we can all acknowledge that - in general - it’s the extremists that we need to worry about, not the moderates, and in this case, there are hundreds of millions of “Islamists”, which has been defined as those Muslims who would prefer to live in theocracies.

There is a difference, though, between those who would prefer to live in a theocracy, and those who would use violence to try and promote that preference. So what percentages can be assumed?

 
ubique13
 
Avatar
 
 
ubique13
Total Posts:  866
Joined  10-03-2017
 
 
 
20 December 2018 13:18
 
burt - 13 December 2018 08:17 PM

There is a difference, though, between those who would prefer to live in a theocracy, and those who would use violence to try and promote that preference. So what percentages can be assumed?

This piece of the puzzle is crucial. It’s also why I find Sam Harris’ criticisms of Islam to be completely sanctimonious bullshit. The United States is the world’s largest purveyor of terrorism, as evidenced by the nuclear triad, and our global military hegemony. We don’t have allies, we have a hostage crisis that’s turned into a clinic for international Stockholm Syndrome.

America is a theocracy, even if that aspect of State fetishization is kept fairly low-key. The puppet governments we install around the world are almost exclusively “Christian Democracies,” because that’s what gives the best profit returns. Where Islam can be nominally substituted, we end up with Wahhabism/Salafi interpretations of a religion which is far less interested in global dominion than Christendom has proven itself to be.

 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7618
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
20 December 2018 14:24
 
ubique13 - 20 December 2018 01:18 PM
burt - 13 December 2018 08:17 PM

There is a difference, though, between those who would prefer to live in a theocracy, and those who would use violence to try and promote that preference. So what percentages can be assumed?

This piece of the puzzle is crucial. It’s also why I find Sam Harris’ criticisms of Islam to be completely sanctimonious bullshit. The United States is the world’s largest purveyor of terrorism, as evidenced by the nuclear triad, and our global military hegemony. We don’t have allies, we have a hostage crisis that’s turned into a clinic for international Stockholm Syndrome.

America is a theocracy, even if that aspect of State fetishization is kept fairly low-key. The puppet governments we install around the world are almost exclusively “Christian Democracies,” because that’s what gives the best profit returns. Where Islam can be nominally substituted, we end up with Wahhabism/Salafi interpretations of a religion which is far less interested in global dominion than Christendom has proven itself to be.

Can you elaborate on your idea of “Christian democracies”?

 
 
ubique13
 
Avatar
 
 
ubique13
Total Posts:  866
Joined  10-03-2017
 
 
 
20 December 2018 16:11
 
icehorse - 20 December 2018 02:24 PM

Can you elaborate on your idea of “Christian democracies”?

Of course, but in hindsight I’d probably amend that qualifier to be less reductionist. I’m essentially talking about socio-economic power, and the manner by which a country may, or may not, be viewed as a potential ally to the United States. Our relationship with the Saudis, for example, seems to illustrate my point very clearly. As does our relationship with China. It’s not the religion which matters, so much as it is the recognition that money matters more.

More than your beliefs, more than your sovereignty (see: the IMF and World Bank), more than human life. America’s theocracy, to my mind, is that of the golden calf. I don’t say this as someone who grew up wanting for very much. I have seen covetousness, and the misery that it brings. The love of money is the root of all evil.

 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7618
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
21 December 2018 11:14
 

As I’ve stated often, I’m extremely concerned about oligarchs running the US. And I’d agree that our foreign policies are often driven by greed.

That said, as an individual, I have some core values. A lot of those values are well explained by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The OIC, which is the closest thing we have to leadership in the Muslim world, flatly rejected the UDHR. So while the US has its problems, I don’t think we should exacerbate those problems by acting as though Islam is benign. Even if many Muslims are benign, they’ve been indoctrinated into an ideology that is not. I do not want more unreformed Islam in the US. It goes against my core values.

 
 
ubique13
 
Avatar
 
 
ubique13
Total Posts:  866
Joined  10-03-2017
 
 
 
21 December 2018 12:56
 
icehorse - 21 December 2018 11:14 AM

As I’ve stated often, I’m extremely concerned about oligarchs running the US. And I’d agree that our foreign policies are often driven by greed.

That said, as an individual, I have some core values. A lot of those values are well explained by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The OIC, which is the closest thing we have to leadership in the Muslim world, flatly rejected the UDHR. So while the US has its problems, I don’t think we should exacerbate those problems by acting as though Islam is benign. Even if many Muslims are benign, they’ve been indoctrinated into an ideology that is not. I do not want more unreformed Islam in the US. It goes against my core values.

No organized religion is benign, in my experience. If I were writing the legislation, I would require religious practice to be reasonably confined to private locations, and completely forbid proselytization, including to minor children. But that’s not exactly something I ever expect to see. Nevertheless, I am a firm believer in ‘a priori’ values, as well, and I don’t intend to come off as though I am an advocate of moral relativism. My main gripe with American society (aside from the racism and misogyny, I suppose) is the fetishization of the material, and the degree to which the wealth gap effectively creates economic castes.

When a “normal” person makes a five-figure average salary, and a few dozen people make hundreds of millions a year, that’s a recipe for a civil insurrection.

 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7618
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
22 December 2018 08:05
 
ubique13 - 21 December 2018 12:56 PM
icehorse - 21 December 2018 11:14 AM

As I’ve stated often, I’m extremely concerned about oligarchs running the US. And I’d agree that our foreign policies are often driven by greed.

That said, as an individual, I have some core values. A lot of those values are well explained by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The OIC, which is the closest thing we have to leadership in the Muslim world, flatly rejected the UDHR. So while the US has its problems, I don’t think we should exacerbate those problems by acting as though Islam is benign. Even if many Muslims are benign, they’ve been indoctrinated into an ideology that is not. I do not want more unreformed Islam in the US. It goes against my core values.

No organized religion is benign, in my experience. If I were writing the legislation, I would require religious practice to be reasonably confined to private locations, and completely forbid proselytization, including to minor children. But that’s not exactly something I ever expect to see. Nevertheless, I am a firm believer in ‘a priori’ values, as well, and I don’t intend to come off as though I am an advocate of moral relativism. My main gripe with American society (aside from the racism and misogyny, I suppose) is the fetishization of the material, and the degree to which the wealth gap effectively creates economic castes.

When a “normal” person makes a five-figure average salary, and a few dozen people make hundreds of millions a year, that’s a recipe for a civil insurrection.

If I read you right, we’re basically agreed?

 
 
ubique13
 
Avatar
 
 
ubique13
Total Posts:  866
Joined  10-03-2017
 
 
 
22 December 2018 12:55
 
icehorse - 22 December 2018 08:05 AM
ubique13 - 21 December 2018 12:56 PM
icehorse - 21 December 2018 11:14 AM

As I’ve stated often, I’m extremely concerned about oligarchs running the US. And I’d agree that our foreign policies are often driven by greed.

That said, as an individual, I have some core values. A lot of those values are well explained by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The OIC, which is the closest thing we have to leadership in the Muslim world, flatly rejected the UDHR. So while the US has its problems, I don’t think we should exacerbate those problems by acting as though Islam is benign. Even if many Muslims are benign, they’ve been indoctrinated into an ideology that is not. I do not want more unreformed Islam in the US. It goes against my core values.

No organized religion is benign, in my experience. If I were writing the legislation, I would require religious practice to be reasonably confined to private locations, and completely forbid proselytization, including to minor children. But that’s not exactly something I ever expect to see. Nevertheless, I am a firm believer in ‘a priori’ values, as well, and I don’t intend to come off as though I am an advocate of moral relativism. My main gripe with American society (aside from the racism and misogyny, I suppose) is the fetishization of the material, and the degree to which the wealth gap effectively creates economic castes.

When a “normal” person makes a five-figure average salary, and a few dozen people make hundreds of millions a year, that’s a recipe for a civil insurrection.

If I read you right, we’re basically agreed?

Without a doubt. I’m probably a bit more jaded and cynical regarding whatever altruism that the United States pretends to stand for. And it is from that perspective which I take issue with Sam Harris making the amounts of money that he does to go on tour preaching the miracle of Buddhism, while completely side-stepping his own fixation on Wahhabism, and the American military hegemony which has arguably been pivotal in its ascent.

I am also increasingly concerned that we’ve effectively ‘activated’ the next version of The Crusades, but I’m not really sure that they ever ended.

 
 
‹ First  < 3 4 5