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According to the UN, migration should be a human right

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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05 December 2018 08:42
 
icehorse - 05 December 2018 07:43 AM

Jan:
It is not contrary to civil liberties for a member of a religion to choose to sit separately in their church or at the back of their mosque.

I agree that choose is the key concept here. It seems to me that if one woman in a particular mosque chose to sit with the men there would be hell to pay. In other words, the odds of coercion in those situations is extremely high. (In ALL such religious settings). What I really and truly don’t get is how feminists are happy to let these extremely misogynistic segregation practices stand without protesting them? Is it really true that feminists buy into intersectionality theory?

Jan:
Public ridicule (not criticism), which amounts to persecution, is itself contrary to an individual’s right to “freedom of thought, conscience and religion” (UDHR, Article 18).

This gets into territory that I find tricky. Is it okay for us to ridicule Neo-Nazis? If so, how do we draw the line? And again, society has decided that Mormons could NOT be allowed total freedom of religion.

Jan:
Most religions are misogynistic to some degree and Islam is particularly problematic in this regard.  But it is a mistake to stereotype all Muslims as many who come to the west are, or are becoming, more progressive.

A couple of points here:

- It’s one thing to pursue the normal, decades-old immigration process. A process in which ALL applicants are vetted to determine whether they will contribute to the well-being of the host country. It’s quite another to pursue an unvetted, open-borders policy.
- Any Muslim who is progressive should have no issue with declaring their faith to a reformed Islam. If a given Muslim refuses to openly support a reformed Islam, then that Muslim is not progressive. Islam is REGRESSIVE in nature. You cannot eat your cake and have it too.

It is not up to us to tell a Muslim woman what she should or should not do.  If she accepts the role prescribed by her religion, it is her decision.  If she is being forced against her will, there are laws in our countries that she can invoke for her protection.  If she desires reform within her faith, she can work towards these changes, with support given when needed.

As you know, freedom of religion in our societies does not take precedent over the law-of-the-land, which is as it should be when religion contravenes other rights (i.e. no polygamy, no FGM, etc.).

I don’t advocate for an unvetted immigration process.  Every attempt should be made to deny admission to religious extremists who pose a threat to peace or who are unwilling to abide by our secular laws.  However, that should not require individuals to deny their faith or subscribe to a certain set of beliefs (however these could be determined).  A truly free country includes citizens with various views and beliefs.  (And I’ve never seen the point of having cake if you can’t eat it.)

[ Edited: 05 December 2018 08:49 by Jan_CAN]
 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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05 December 2018 10:22
 
GAD - 05 December 2018 08:28 AM
hannahtoo - 05 December 2018 07:45 AM

I think we are getting to the heart of the issues, finally.  One’s opinions on immigration depend on one’s perceived circle of responsibility and sense of fairness.

In my experience, humans are not wired to be entirely selfish nor altruistic.  These are potentials which are shaped by our social upbringing.  Both are necessary for survival of the species.  The natural condition of humans was to live in small groups in which everyone was known to each other and depended on each other.  The community succeeded or failed together.  They grieved and celebrated together.  Now, in the modern world, we are forced to interact continually with people we do not know, and we hear and see news about others who are very different from us all over the world. Instead of dealing with a handful of relationships within our ken, our emotions are triggered by endless stories of inspiration and despair and terror and beauty.  How to manage the overload? 

Personally, I find compassion to be exhausting.  Yet to ignore compassion feels like stifling one of the best parts of myself.  Limiting compassion seems pragmatic and essential, yet heartbreaking.  Sometimes I find that choosing to ignore my impulse to care triggers anger, as if anger will displace or mask my regret.  This is a tragedy of modern life for me—the distance between the impulse to care and the impracticality of action.

You are addicted to feelings, you are an emotional junky who can’t get through your day without getting emotionally high. And while you list inspiration and beauty those are dependent on despair and terror to have the emotional meaning/high you need. Ever read a book or story about someone who was born with everything and never had to do anything to have a great life? No one has because no one cares because you can’t get high off that. But take the same person and have them talk about how hard it was, how they got teased, how they were rude because they were rich/prefect and/or hated themselves (self demeaning and flagellation have high drug content), their dog died, someone they loved died, their wife ran away etc etc but they came through it and now are a different good person who wants to help people, now you can sell that drug because it gets the emotional junkies high as hell. So you need a world of despair and terror to harvest your inspiration and beauty drug crop from so you can get that great emotional high that you are hooked on.

Well, I disagree with your assessment.  But note that you seem pretty emotional in your postings.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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05 December 2018 10:32
 
hannahtoo - 05 December 2018 10:22 AM
GAD - 05 December 2018 08:28 AM
hannahtoo - 05 December 2018 07:45 AM

I think we are getting to the heart of the issues, finally.  One’s opinions on immigration depend on one’s perceived circle of responsibility and sense of fairness.

In my experience, humans are not wired to be entirely selfish nor altruistic.  These are potentials which are shaped by our social upbringing.  Both are necessary for survival of the species.  The natural condition of humans was to live in small groups in which everyone was known to each other and depended on each other.  The community succeeded or failed together.  They grieved and celebrated together.  Now, in the modern world, we are forced to interact continually with people we do not know, and we hear and see news about others who are very different from us all over the world. Instead of dealing with a handful of relationships within our ken, our emotions are triggered by endless stories of inspiration and despair and terror and beauty.  How to manage the overload? 

Personally, I find compassion to be exhausting.  Yet to ignore compassion feels like stifling one of the best parts of myself.  Limiting compassion seems pragmatic and essential, yet heartbreaking.  Sometimes I find that choosing to ignore my impulse to care triggers anger, as if anger will displace or mask my regret.  This is a tragedy of modern life for me—the distance between the impulse to care and the impracticality of action.

You are addicted to feelings, you are an emotional junky who can’t get through your day without getting emotionally high. And while you list inspiration and beauty those are dependent on despair and terror to have the emotional meaning/high you need. Ever read a book or story about someone who was born with everything and never had to do anything to have a great life? No one has because no one cares because you can’t get high off that. But take the same person and have them talk about how hard it was, how they got teased, how they were rude because they were rich/prefect and/or hated themselves (self demeaning and flagellation have high drug content), their dog died, someone they loved died, their wife ran away etc etc but they came through it and now are a different good person who wants to help people, now you can sell that drug because it gets the emotional junkies high as hell. So you need a world of despair and terror to harvest your inspiration and beauty drug crop from so you can get that great emotional high that you are hooked on.

Well, I disagree with your assessment.  But note that you seem pretty emotional in your postings.

You disagree but in your heart you know it’s true, you just don’t like the way I say it directly vs PC. And I am human and not immune to emotions or getting high from them. When I make such claims people always think I am excluding myself, but with rare exception I always include myself in my general statements. I can do that because I’ve learned to be honest with myself without hating myself, something most people can’t do, so there I do appear to be an exception. 

 

 
 
mapadofu
 
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mapadofu
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05 December 2018 14:34
 

I don’t think that anyone in this thread has advocated a significant departure from normal immigration processes.

From the UN document “c) National sovereignty. The Global Compact reaffirms the sovereign right of States to determine their national migration policy and their prerogative to govern migration within their jurisdiction, in conformity with international law. Within their sovereign jurisdiction, States may distinguish between regular and irregular migration status, including as they determine their legislative and policy measures for the implementation of the Global Compact, taking into account different national realities, policies, priorities and requirements for entry, residence and work, in accordance with international law;”

And also

13. This Global Compact recognizes that safe, orderly and regular migration works for all when it takes place in a well- informed, planned and consensual manner. Migration should never be an act of desperation. When it is, we must cooperate to respond to the needs of migrants in situations of vulnerability, and address the respective challenges. We must work together to create conditions that allow communities and individuals to live in safety and dignity in their own countries. We must save lives and keep migrants out of harm’s way”

You (Ice) are suspicious of the UN, but in order to achieve the outcomes you feel are most desirable, something like it needs to be presumed.

 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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05 December 2018 16:18
 
GAD - 05 December 2018 10:32 AM
hannahtoo - 05 December 2018 10:22 AM
GAD - 05 December 2018 08:28 AM
hannahtoo - 05 December 2018 07:45 AM

I think we are getting to the heart of the issues, finally.  One’s opinions on immigration depend on one’s perceived circle of responsibility and sense of fairness.

In my experience, humans are not wired to be entirely selfish nor altruistic.  These are potentials which are shaped by our social upbringing.  Both are necessary for survival of the species.  The natural condition of humans was to live in small groups in which everyone was known to each other and depended on each other.  The community succeeded or failed together.  They grieved and celebrated together.  Now, in the modern world, we are forced to interact continually with people we do not know, and we hear and see news about others who are very different from us all over the world. Instead of dealing with a handful of relationships within our ken, our emotions are triggered by endless stories of inspiration and despair and terror and beauty.  How to manage the overload? 

Personally, I find compassion to be exhausting.  Yet to ignore compassion feels like stifling one of the best parts of myself.  Limiting compassion seems pragmatic and essential, yet heartbreaking.  Sometimes I find that choosing to ignore my impulse to care triggers anger, as if anger will displace or mask my regret.  This is a tragedy of modern life for me—the distance between the impulse to care and the impracticality of action.

You are addicted to feelings, you are an emotional junky who can’t get through your day without getting emotionally high. And while you list inspiration and beauty those are dependent on despair and terror to have the emotional meaning/high you need. Ever read a book or story about someone who was born with everything and never had to do anything to have a great life? No one has because no one cares because you can’t get high off that. But take the same person and have them talk about how hard it was, how they got teased, how they were rude because they were rich/prefect and/or hated themselves (self demeaning and flagellation have high drug content), their dog died, someone they loved died, their wife ran away etc etc but they came through it and now are a different good person who wants to help people, now you can sell that drug because it gets the emotional junkies high as hell. So you need a world of despair and terror to harvest your inspiration and beauty drug crop from so you can get that great emotional high that you are hooked on.

Well, I disagree with your assessment.  But note that you seem pretty emotional in your postings.

You disagree but in your heart you know it’s true, you just don’t like the way I say it directly vs PC. And I am human and not immune to emotions or getting high from them. When I make such claims people always think I am excluding myself, but with rare exception I always include myself in my general statements. I can do that because I’ve learned to be honest with myself without hating myself, something most people can’t do, so there I do appear to be an exception. 

 

I appreciate you saying that you include yourself in your general statements.  We all are emotional as well as rational creatures.  But I disagree with how you interpret my internal motivations.  But I’ll leave it at that.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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06 December 2018 12:48
 

map:

You (Ice) are suspicious of the UN, but in order to achieve the outcomes you feel are most desirable, something like it needs to be presumed.

If this document was my first exposure to the UN, it would make me suspicious. The document IS suspicious on its own. I like to assume that the people who craft official documents like this are smart and careful. The document isn’t riddled with bad writing unless that was intended. As it stands, the document is often vague, and/or ambiguous, unclear, and sometimes incoherent. I do not believe that’s by accident, and I can’t cook up happy reasons for such unclear writing.

I believe the UN is on a path to try to normalize some really bad ideas like open borders and migration being a human right. This document strikes me as a small step towards normalizing those ideas.

 
 
mapadofu
 
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mapadofu
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06 December 2018 13:03
 

It is bureaucratese, but I don’t find it intrinsically suspicious.  What would a non-suspicious policy paper on migration look like?

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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06 December 2018 13:16
 
mapadofu - 06 December 2018 01:03 PM

It is bureaucratese, but I don’t find it intrinsically suspicious.  What would a non-suspicious policy paper on migration look like?

- It would define key terms and phrases, e.g., “regular migration”.
- it would not hint at censorship like it does in paragraph 33-c
- It would be more focused
- It would be coherent

and so on

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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08 December 2018 09:44
 

Malaysia likes its racial discrimination and is telling the UN to fuck off, they don’t want no foreigners coming there and taking what they have. 

https://news.yahoo.com/malaysian-muslims-stage-rally-uphold-malay-privileges-085420849.html

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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08 December 2018 11:48
 
GAD - 08 December 2018 09:44 AM

Malaysia likes its racial discrimination and is telling the UN to fuck off, they don’t want no foreigners coming there and taking what they have. 

https://news.yahoo.com/malaysian-muslims-stage-rally-uphold-malay-privileges-085420849.html

That’s news for ya.  The media chooses not to write stories titled, “People of several races and creeds shared friendly barbeque,” or “Hard-working men of Mexican heritage fixed my roof today.”

 

[ Edited: 08 December 2018 11:53 by hannahtoo]
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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08 December 2018 12:32
 
hannahtoo - 08 December 2018 11:48 AM
GAD - 08 December 2018 09:44 AM

Malaysia likes its racial discrimination and is telling the UN to fuck off, they don’t want no foreigners coming there and taking what they have. 

https://news.yahoo.com/malaysian-muslims-stage-rally-uphold-malay-privileges-085420849.html

That’s news for ya.  The media chooses not to write stories titled, “People of several races and creeds shared friendly barbeque,” or “Hard-working men of Mexican heritage fixed my roof today.”

Who cares about that when 50,000 Malaysian Muslims are protesting to keep racial discrimination and themselves in power. That gets clicks which sells ads!

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
Total Posts:  6979
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08 December 2018 15:15
 
GAD - 08 December 2018 12:32 PM
hannahtoo - 08 December 2018 11:48 AM
GAD - 08 December 2018 09:44 AM

Malaysia likes its racial discrimination and is telling the UN to fuck off, they don’t want no foreigners coming there and taking what they have. 

https://news.yahoo.com/malaysian-muslims-stage-rally-uphold-malay-privileges-085420849.html

That’s news for ya.  The media chooses not to write stories titled, “People of several races and creeds shared friendly barbeque,” or “Hard-working men of Mexican heritage fixed my roof today.”

Who cares about that when 50,000 Malaysian Muslims are protesting to keep racial discrimination and themselves in power. That gets clicks which sells ads!

This is a red herring.  These people are trying to control Malaysia, not immigrate to the US.  And, for the umpteenth time, no one is arguing that no Muslims ever cause problems, just that all Muslims should not be lumped together under one mindset.  Is that so wacky?

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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08 December 2018 15:40
 
hannahtoo - 08 December 2018 03:15 PM
GAD - 08 December 2018 12:32 PM
hannahtoo - 08 December 2018 11:48 AM
GAD - 08 December 2018 09:44 AM

Malaysia likes its racial discrimination and is telling the UN to fuck off, they don’t want no foreigners coming there and taking what they have. 

https://news.yahoo.com/malaysian-muslims-stage-rally-uphold-malay-privileges-085420849.html

That’s news for ya.  The media chooses not to write stories titled, “People of several races and creeds shared friendly barbeque,” or “Hard-working men of Mexican heritage fixed my roof today.”

Who cares about that when 50,000 Malaysian Muslims are protesting to keep racial discrimination and themselves in power. That gets clicks which sells ads!

This is a red herring.  These people are trying to control Malaysia, not immigrate to the US.  And, for the umpteenth time, no one is arguing that no Muslims ever cause problems, just that all Muslims should not be lumped together under one mindset.  Is that so wacky?

I don’t know, history shows over and over again that when any group gets large enough they try to take power and exert control not equality over other groups, seems wacky to pretend that that isn’t all of human history.

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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08 December 2018 16:57
 
GAD - 08 December 2018 03:40 PM
hannahtoo - 08 December 2018 03:15 PM
GAD - 08 December 2018 12:32 PM
hannahtoo - 08 December 2018 11:48 AM
GAD - 08 December 2018 09:44 AM

Malaysia likes its racial discrimination and is telling the UN to fuck off, they don’t want no foreigners coming there and taking what they have. 

https://news.yahoo.com/malaysian-muslims-stage-rally-uphold-malay-privileges-085420849.html

That’s news for ya.  The media chooses not to write stories titled, “People of several races and creeds shared friendly barbeque,” or “Hard-working men of Mexican heritage fixed my roof today.”

Who cares about that when 50,000 Malaysian Muslims are protesting to keep racial discrimination and themselves in power. That gets clicks which sells ads!

This is a red herring.  These people are trying to control Malaysia, not immigrate to the US.  And, for the umpteenth time, no one is arguing that no Muslims ever cause problems, just that all Muslims should not be lumped together under one mindset.  Is that so wacky?

I don’t know, history shows over and over again that when any group gets large enough they try to take power and exert control not equality over other groups, seems wacky to pretend that that isn’t all of human history.

I think more recent history, with recognition of human rights, is a new chapter.  It is a challenge to might makes right.  Maybe a big part of the reason is that people are mixing more than ever before.  And the US, as an experiment, was founded by people who left (or whose forebears left) the old system to find opportunity.  Today the better angels and worse demons of our nature are fighting all over the world.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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08 December 2018 19:56
 
hannahtoo - 08 December 2018 04:57 PM
GAD - 08 December 2018 03:40 PM
hannahtoo - 08 December 2018 03:15 PM
GAD - 08 December 2018 12:32 PM
hannahtoo - 08 December 2018 11:48 AM
GAD - 08 December 2018 09:44 AM

Malaysia likes its racial discrimination and is telling the UN to fuck off, they don’t want no foreigners coming there and taking what they have. 

https://news.yahoo.com/malaysian-muslims-stage-rally-uphold-malay-privileges-085420849.html

That’s news for ya.  The media chooses not to write stories titled, “People of several races and creeds shared friendly barbeque,” or “Hard-working men of Mexican heritage fixed my roof today.”

Who cares about that when 50,000 Malaysian Muslims are protesting to keep racial discrimination and themselves in power. That gets clicks which sells ads!

This is a red herring.  These people are trying to control Malaysia, not immigrate to the US.  And, for the umpteenth time, no one is arguing that no Muslims ever cause problems, just that all Muslims should not be lumped together under one mindset.  Is that so wacky?

I don’t know, history shows over and over again that when any group gets large enough they try to take power and exert control not equality over other groups, seems wacky to pretend that that isn’t all of human history.

I think more recent history, with recognition of human rights, is a new chapter.  It is a challenge to might makes right.  Maybe a big part of the reason is that people are mixing more than ever before.  And the US, as an experiment, was founded by people who left (or whose forebears left) the old system to find opportunity.  Today the better angels and worse demons of our nature are fighting all over the world.

They left to find places where they could be the king and in control not for some dream of making the world great but for making themselves great, that’s what drove the American dream, that to be a king you didn’t have to be born one, you could become one.

 
 
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