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Society’s Relationship to Female Sexuality

 
Quadrewple
 
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Quadrewple
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13 December 2018 13:51
 

We live in an era of comical hypocrisy when it comes to how we view female sexuality in Western society.


WHAT WE SAY:  Women and men should be treated the same under the law.

WHAT WE DO:  The vast majority of people would vote NO on a law which made it legal for women to expose their breasts in public.

This means that we have no desire to treat the sexes equally, but are consistently lying to ourselves that we are, or that we should.

___________________________________________________________________________________


This glaring hypocrisy raises an obvious question:  What IS our relationship to female sexuality?

Because right now our society views female sexuality as a commodity to be used for strictly material gains.  This is empirically demonstrated by the widespread, mainstream push for women to use their years of prime fertility pursuing a career (money) rather than family (and the next generation).

___________________________________________________________________________________

If there’s anyone out there triggered/annoyed by my post, I only have 1 question of you - DESCRIBE WHAT SOCIETY’S RELATIONSHIP TOWARDS FEMALE SEXUALITY OUGHT TO BE in the comments below.  Better yet, explain to me why women shouldn’t be allowed to walk around topless if you believe in gender equality under the law.

Can you justify legally suppressing female sexuality without an appeal to religion?

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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13 December 2018 16:37
 

I don’t think that laws against toplessness are an attempt to suppress female sexuality, exactly.  We don’t consider that it’s an attempt to suppress sexuality for either gender to not go bottomless.  It’s a matter of what is considered ‘decent/indecent’ in public.  Yes, men and women should be treated the same (equally/fairly) under the law, but it’s also a fact that women have breasts and men do not.  It seems to be more about promoting the ‘de-sexualisation of breasts’ (see below link).

Where I live, ‘Topfreedom’ is allowed, but I have yet to see a woman walking down the street topless.  However, it must be a comfort for the mother breastfeeding her baby in the park to know that she does not risk arrest as was the case in the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom_in_Canada

Breasts are still sexy in our culture, so except for the very uninhibited and occasionally on some beaches, I don’t think this will catch on to any great extent anytime soon.

[ Edited: 13 December 2018 17:02 by Jan_CAN]
 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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13 December 2018 18:40
 

I honestly don’t know what came first, men’s attraction to breasts, or, the convering up of them and then our love affair with them. Boobs are awesome!

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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13 December 2018 19:18
 

When I see a hot female teacher who slept with a student, I think damn that’s a lucky boy, when it’s a male teacher and a female student I’m thinking string him up. I’m a hard atheist so that double standard feeling doen’t come from religion, it’s nature. Gods and Religion are man made and they reflect what men feel, see, want, desire etc, so controlling females and their sexuality is something that comes from nature and is reflected in religion vs the other way around.

Now bring on the topless babes!

 
 
Jb8989
 
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13 December 2018 19:23
 
GAD - 13 December 2018 07:18 PM

When I see a hot female teacher who slept with a student, I think damn that’s a lucky boy, when it’s a male teacher and a female student I’m thinking string him up. I’m a hard atheist so that double standard feeling doen’t come from religion, it’s nature. Gods and Religion are man made and they reflect what men feel, see, want, desire etc, so controlling females and their sexuality is something that comes from nature and is reflected in religion vs the other way around.

Now bring on the topless babes!

Can’t control that shit. Chicks love to bang just as much, society just shits on them in magazines and shit.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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13 December 2018 20:10
 
Jb8989 - 13 December 2018 07:23 PM
GAD - 13 December 2018 07:18 PM

When I see a hot female teacher who slept with a student, I think damn that’s a lucky boy, when it’s a male teacher and a female student I’m thinking string him up. I’m a hard atheist so that double standard feeling doen’t come from religion, it’s nature. Gods and Religion are man made and they reflect what men feel, see, want, desire etc, so controlling females and their sexuality is something that comes from nature and is reflected in religion vs the other way around.

Now bring on the topless babes!

Can’t control that shit. Chicks love to bang just as much, society just shits on them in magazines and shit.

Yeah, women have gradually been shaking off the man-made shackles.  But we all know what would likely happen if a woman went topless and unprotected in public.

 
 
GAD
 
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13 December 2018 20:43
 
Jb8989 - 13 December 2018 07:23 PM
GAD - 13 December 2018 07:18 PM

When I see a hot female teacher who slept with a student, I think damn that’s a lucky boy, when it’s a male teacher and a female student I’m thinking string him up. I’m a hard atheist so that double standard feeling doen’t come from religion, it’s nature. Gods and Religion are man made and they reflect what men feel, see, want, desire etc, so controlling females and their sexuality is something that comes from nature and is reflected in religion vs the other way around.

Now bring on the topless babes!

Can’t control that shit. Chicks love to bang just as much, society just shits on them in magazines and shit.

I’d say we controlled it pretty goddamn well, look at religion and secular laws. Yes chicks love to bang just as much, that’s what I’ve been saying all along, but if they walk around naked in 6” stilettos and guys get turned on (and they do) then they want to pretend he is bad. That hasn’t flown in the past, but now in a world of #metoo where if a guy even gets a hardon looking a woman he is bad guy, it’s getting crazy. I suppose you say it’s pay back 1000;s of years of men saying women’s sexuality was bad because it made men crazy and had to be controlled.

 
 
Quadrewple
 
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13 December 2018 23:39
 
Jan_CAN - 13 December 2018 04:37 PM

I don’t think that laws against toplessness are an attempt to suppress female sexuality, exactly.  We don’t consider that it’s an attempt to suppress sexuality for either gender to not go bottomless.  It’s a matter of what is considered ‘decent/indecent’ in public.  Yes, men and women should be treated the same (equally/fairly) under the law, but it’s also a fact that women have breasts and men do not.  It seems to be more about promoting the ‘de-sexualisation of breasts’ (see below link).

The very concept of decency/indecency assumes some standard of reference.  Most of our ideas about decency have been passed down from religion (Christianity).  For an atheist, what possible standard of reference is there for decency, other than a pragmatic argument? (like the one Gad made)

If you can tell me why you think it should be illegal to be naked in public, the same logic you use can probably be applied to the idea of women wearing makeup in the workplace, and other such grey areas where we as a society are currently sitting on the fence between an old model which was logically consistent and a new model which isn’t.

If our relationship to human sexuality is ultimately a pragmatic one, what’s with the reluctance to even entertain the idea that women should dress “modestly”?  Not wear makeup in the workplace?  Perhaps our relationship to sex has changed from pragmatism to hedonism…..

Jan_CAN - 13 December 2018 04:37 PM

Breasts are still sexy in our culture, so except for the very uninhibited and occasionally on some beaches, I don’t think this will catch on to any great extent anytime soon.

Okay but my point is not that I want this law to change (I’m fine with the laws the way they are).  My point is that we have given up a logically consistent model (based on religion) for how to treat female sexuality for a logically inconsistent model, and no one who likes this new model is willing to face intellectual scrutiny.  The consequence of having a logically inconsistent model (as in any situation) is tons of wasted time, energy, and arguments about gender which have nothing to mediate them.

Either the laws need to change, or the rhetoric needs to change.  It’s really embarrassing for us to be living in such a fantasy land around gender while fancying ourselves an advanced society.  It’s also really embarrassing for us to claim we hold women in such high regard, while encouraging them to use their sexual power for corporate careers rather than raising the next generation to continue our society and way of life.

 
 
Quadrewple
 
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13 December 2018 23:49
 
Jan_CAN - 13 December 2018 08:10 PM

Yeah, women have gradually been shaking off the man-made shackles.  But we all know what would likely happen if a woman went topless and unprotected in public.

Okay, but why should women have to wear tops because some men are violent and rapey?  The principle you’re appealing to is that if we have to inconvenience women in general in order to protect a few of them, it’s worth it.  I don’t see why that same principle can’t be applied to women dressing “modestly” in public…...

By the way, I agree with this law and that women should not be allowed to walk around topless…..just want to remind you that I’m only demonstrating that logic used to restrict women in one instance can be restrict women in another instance.  The only question is to what degree women are kept safer by a given restriction, and what the degree of inconvenience is…...and I hold no dogmatic views towards this issue, as there are multiple models which are internally consistent.

The model that says we need to restrict human sexuality for the greater good of society (no nudity in public) and encourage modesty is internally consistent.  The model that says we need not restrict human sexuality (no nudity laws, no encouragement of modesty) is also internally consistent.  All I’m asking people to do is to pick one model and stick to it…....not simply mix and match for emotional reasons.

 
 
Jb8989
 
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14 December 2018 05:18
 
GAD - 13 December 2018 08:43 PM
Jb8989 - 13 December 2018 07:23 PM
GAD - 13 December 2018 07:18 PM

When I see a hot female teacher who slept with a student, I think damn that’s a lucky boy, when it’s a male teacher and a female student I’m thinking string him up. I’m a hard atheist so that double standard feeling doen’t come from religion, it’s nature. Gods and Religion are man made and they reflect what men feel, see, want, desire etc, so controlling females and their sexuality is something that comes from nature and is reflected in religion vs the other way around.

Now bring on the topless babes!

Can’t control that shit. Chicks love to bang just as much, society just shits on them in magazines and shit.

I’d say we controlled it pretty goddamn well, look at religion and secular laws. Yes chicks love to bang just as much, that’s what I’ve been saying all along, but if they walk around naked in 6” stilettos and guys get turned on (and they do) then they want to pretend he is bad. That hasn’t flown in the past, but now in a world of #metoo where if a guy even gets a hardon looking a woman he is bad guy, it’s getting crazy. I suppose you say it’s pay back 1000;s of years of men saying women’s sexuality was bad because it made men crazy and had to be controlled.

I’m thinking that metoo is eventually going to have a good effect. This is just early shenanigans working out the kinks, but eventually I think men are going to stop playing fast and loose with consent and chicks are going to dig that so they’re going to be more comfortable being less self conscious about thier bodies.

 
 
GAD
 
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14 December 2018 06:39
 
Jb8989 - 14 December 2018 05:18 AM
GAD - 13 December 2018 08:43 PM
Jb8989 - 13 December 2018 07:23 PM
GAD - 13 December 2018 07:18 PM

When I see a hot female teacher who slept with a student, I think damn that’s a lucky boy, when it’s a male teacher and a female student I’m thinking string him up. I’m a hard atheist so that double standard feeling doen’t come from religion, it’s nature. Gods and Religion are man made and they reflect what men feel, see, want, desire etc, so controlling females and their sexuality is something that comes from nature and is reflected in religion vs the other way around.

Now bring on the topless babes!

Can’t control that shit. Chicks love to bang just as much, society just shits on them in magazines and shit.

I’d say we controlled it pretty goddamn well, look at religion and secular laws. Yes chicks love to bang just as much, that’s what I’ve been saying all along, but if they walk around naked in 6” stilettos and guys get turned on (and they do) then they want to pretend he is bad. That hasn’t flown in the past, but now in a world of #metoo where if a guy even gets a hardon looking a woman he is bad guy, it’s getting crazy. I suppose you say it’s pay back 1000;s of years of men saying women’s sexuality was bad because it made men crazy and had to be controlled.

I’m thinking that metoo is eventually going to have a good effect. This is just early shenanigans working out the kinks, but eventually I think men are going to stop playing fast and loose with consent and chicks are going to dig that so they’re going to be more comfortable being less self conscious about thier bodies.

I don’t think so, I just see another pointless war of Me.

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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14 December 2018 08:09
 
Quadrewple - 13 December 2018 11:39 PM

If you can tell me why you think it should be illegal to be naked in public . . .

This is why.

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Antisocialdarwinist
 
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14 December 2018 08:12
 

And this.

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GAD
 
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14 December 2018 08:17
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 14 December 2018 08:09 AM
Quadrewple - 13 December 2018 11:39 PM

If you can tell me why you think it should be illegal to be naked in public . . .

This is why.

That is called fat shaming now and considered evil as obesity is considered beautiful because every person is beautiful.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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14 December 2018 08:41
 
Quadrewple - 13 December 2018 11:39 PM
Jan_CAN - 13 December 2018 04:37 PM

I don’t think that laws against toplessness are an attempt to suppress female sexuality, exactly.  We don’t consider that it’s an attempt to suppress sexuality for either gender to not go bottomless.  It’s a matter of what is considered ‘decent/indecent’ in public.  Yes, men and women should be treated the same (equally/fairly) under the law, but it’s also a fact that women have breasts and men do not.  It seems to be more about promoting the ‘de-sexualisation of breasts’ (see below link).

The very concept of decency/indecency assumes some standard of reference.  Most of our ideas about decency have been passed down from religion (Christianity).  For an atheist, what possible standard of reference is there for decency, other than a pragmatic argument? (like the one Gad made)

If you can tell me why you think it should be illegal to be naked in public, the same logic you use can probably be applied to the idea of women wearing makeup in the workplace, and other such grey areas where we as a society are currently sitting on the fence between an old model which was logically consistent and a new model which isn’t.

If our relationship to human sexuality is ultimately a pragmatic one, what’s with the reluctance to even entertain the idea that women should dress “modestly”?  Not wear makeup in the workplace?  Perhaps our relationship to sex has changed from pragmatism to hedonism…..

Jan_CAN - 13 December 2018 04:37 PM

Breasts are still sexy in our culture, so except for the very uninhibited and occasionally on some beaches, I don’t think this will catch on to any great extent anytime soon.

Okay but my point is not that I want this law to change (I’m fine with the laws the way they are).  My point is that we have given up a logically consistent model (based on religion) for how to treat female sexuality for a logically inconsistent model, and no one who likes this new model is willing to face intellectual scrutiny.  The consequence of having a logically inconsistent model (as in any situation) is tons of wasted time, energy, and arguments about gender which have nothing to mediate them.

Either the laws need to change, or the rhetoric needs to change.  It’s really embarrassing for us to be living in such a fantasy land around gender while fancying ourselves an advanced society.  It’s also really embarrassing for us to claim we hold women in such high regard, while encouraging them to use their sexual power for corporate careers rather than raising the next generation to continue our society and way of life.

Although many attitudes regarding sexuality were compounded by religion, I don’t think that is the primary issue for most people today.  And man-made religion was also a reflection of some human instincts/characteristics, some of which we need to re-examine as to their fairness and usefulness in modern life.

Though laws about ‘decency’ may seem to be somewhat archaic, complex societies where we are living amongst many people probably require these for protection.  For example, do we want a naked man approaching children on a crowded family beach, or a man parking outside a school flipping it out as children go by?  I.e. if everyone had a healthy attitude about sexuality, no laws would be required, but that is not the case and therefore cannot be ignored.

I don’t think there should be a law against women going topless.  However, each woman will decide for herself and for most it will not be the legalities but cultural ‘laws’ that affect modesty, and concerns about safety, that will determine what she chooses to wear, or not wear.

I have some trouble with your statement that “while encouraging them to use their sexual power for corporate careers rather than raising the next generation to continue our society and way of life”.  Although sexual dynamics will always play a role in male/female interactions, women are coming into their own and want careers based on their abilities.  As many women have demonstrated, they are quite capable of pursuing careers and raising families, often with fathers playing a more equal role in child rearing.

 

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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14 December 2018 08:43
 
GAD - 14 December 2018 08:17 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 14 December 2018 08:09 AM
Quadrewple - 13 December 2018 11:39 PM

If you can tell me why you think it should be illegal to be naked in public . . .

This is why.

That is called fat shaming now and considered evil as obesity is considered beautiful because every person is beautiful.

According to The Times (I tried to post the link but the forum wouldn’t accept it—the article is from Dec 10th, 2018, titled, “What We Know About Diet and Weight Loss,” by Gina Kolata), that’s part of why there are so many more fatties now than there used to be:

Why have people become fatter in recent decades?

. . .

Other societal trends could have encouraged weight gain: ever-larger portion sizes; a growing tendency to snack all day; more people eating more meals out; and a cultural acceptance of overweight to the point where it now seems almost normal.

And since thinner people contribute less to Global Warming, I’m doing my part to combat climate change—by shaming fat people.

 
 
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