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The things that happened before the appearance of God in the universe

 
Darwin C
 
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Darwin C
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15 December 2018 15:39
 

When things happens as expected it becomes God work, Anything bad happens it is Satan’s, 

If the dictionaries define the meaning of God as and Imaginary power to expect things when helpless, I would also believe in God.

[ Edited: 21 April 2019 18:20 by Darwin C]
 
Poldano
 
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Poldano
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16 December 2018 01:11
 

I think God exists independently of time; that’s what eternal really means. Therefore the notion of God having a beginning or a starting time for appearance in our universe is inaccurate.

 
 
MrRon
 
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MrRon
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17 December 2018 03:19
 
Poldano - 16 December 2018 01:11 AM

I think God exists independently of time; that’s what eternal really means. Therefore the notion of God having a beginning or a starting time for appearance in our universe is inaccurate.

How can anything exist independent of time?? And doesn’t eternal mean “lasting forever”, which necessarily entails time?

Ron

 
EN
 
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EN
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17 December 2018 10:42
 
MrRon - 17 December 2018 03:19 AM
Poldano - 16 December 2018 01:11 AM

I think God exists independently of time; that’s what eternal really means. Therefore the notion of God having a beginning or a starting time for appearance in our universe is inaccurate.

How can anything exist independent of time?? And doesn’t eternal mean “lasting forever”, which necessarily entails time?

Ron

Time begins with the Big Bang. On the other side of the Big Bang we don’t know what exists. A state of existence without change in nature would be independent of time.  Doesn’t prove anything, but conceptually I don’t find it difficult to imagine existence apart from time.

 
MrRon
 
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MrRon
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17 December 2018 18:32
 
EN - 17 December 2018 10:42 AM
MrRon - 17 December 2018 03:19 AM
Poldano - 16 December 2018 01:11 AM

I think God exists independently of time; that’s what eternal really means. Therefore the notion of God having a beginning or a starting time for appearance in our universe is inaccurate.

How can anything exist independent of time?? And doesn’t eternal mean “lasting forever”, which necessarily entails time?

Ron

Time begins with the Big Bang. On the other side of the Big Bang we don’t know what exists. A state of existence without change in nature would be independent of time.  Doesn’t prove anything, but conceptually I don’t find it difficult to imagine existence apart from time.

What does it mean to have existence without change in nature?

And why did God have to make a special temporal dimension just for us? Couldn’t he just have us exist in his own time-independent reference frame, whatever that would be? This whole “God is outside time and space” business is nothing but special pleading. Anything that does not exist in time is indistinguishable from the non-existent. No time, no existence. Period.   

Ron        

 

 
TwoSeven1
 
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TwoSeven1
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18 December 2018 12:20
 
MrRon - 17 December 2018 06:32 PM
EN - 17 December 2018 10:42 AM
MrRon - 17 December 2018 03:19 AM
Poldano - 16 December 2018 01:11 AM

I think God exists independently of time; that’s what eternal really means. Therefore the notion of God having a beginning or a starting time for appearance in our universe is inaccurate.

How can anything exist independent of time?? And doesn’t eternal mean “lasting forever”, which necessarily entails time?

Ron

Time begins with the Big Bang. On the other side of the Big Bang we don’t know what exists. A state of existence without change in nature would be independent of time.  Doesn’t prove anything, but conceptually I don’t find it difficult to imagine existence apart from time.

What does it mean to have existence without change in nature?

And why did God have to make a special temporal dimension just for us? Couldn’t he just have us exist in his own time-independent reference frame, whatever that would be? This whole “God is outside time and space” business is nothing but special pleading. Anything that does not exist in time is indistinguishable from the non-existent. No time, no existence. Period.   

Ron        

 

If your source for learning about God is the Bible, then you can observe that time is referred to in the text frequently, and that God is described as eternal.

If you believe the Big Bang caused the observable world to happen, then you would have to acknowledge that something had to have always existed.  I’m sure not many folks would argue that something comes from nothing.

If one can believe that the something has always existed, then why is it hard to believe that God has always existed? That’s not to say that God created the Big Bang.  The Bible is clear about creation.

 
EN
 
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EN
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18 December 2018 13:13
 
MrRon - 17 December 2018 06:32 PM

What does it mean to have existence without change in nature?
   

I’m just going to respond to this question, since your other comments are changing the subject.

The presentation of God in the Bible is one of immutability.  “For I, the LORD, do not change…” Malachi 3:6.  “But Thou art the same, And Thy years will not come to an end.” Psalm 102:27.  I know you don’t accept the Bible, but to understand existence without change in nature, one must understand something of the theological concept of immutability.  The Immutability of God is an attribute that God is unchanging in his character, will, and covenant promises.  He does not develop or grow old. He does not change with the circumstances. He does not suffer the ravages of time like everything else in the created order. He does not decay. As such, he stands untouched by time. That’s what my phrase meant.

 
MrRon
 
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MrRon
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18 December 2018 16:54
 
TwoSeven1 - 18 December 2018 12:20 PM
MrRon - 17 December 2018 06:32 PM
EN - 17 December 2018 10:42 AM
MrRon - 17 December 2018 03:19 AM
Poldano - 16 December 2018 01:11 AM

I think God exists independently of time; that’s what eternal really means. Therefore the notion of God having a beginning or a starting time for appearance in our universe is inaccurate.

How can anything exist independent of time?? And doesn’t eternal mean “lasting forever”, which necessarily entails time?

Ron

Time begins with the Big Bang. On the other side of the Big Bang we don’t know what exists. A state of existence without change in nature would be independent of time.  Doesn’t prove anything, but conceptually I don’t find it difficult to imagine existence apart from time.

What does it mean to have existence without change in nature?

And why did God have to make a special temporal dimension just for us? Couldn’t he just have us exist in his own time-independent reference frame, whatever that would be? This whole “God is outside time and space” business is nothing but special pleading. Anything that does not exist in time is indistinguishable from the non-existent. No time, no existence. Period.   

Ron        

 

If your source for learning about God is the Bible, then you can observe that time is referred to in the text frequently, and that God is described as eternal.

Again, eternal means “lasting forever”, which necessarily entails time. Therefore, God must exist in time.

If you believe the Big Bang caused the observable world to happen, then you would have to acknowledge that something had to have always existed.  I’m sure not many folks would argue that something comes from nothing.

It doesn’t necessarily follow that “something had to have always existed.”

If one can believe that the something has always existed, then why is it hard to believe that God has always existed? That’s not to say that God created the Big Bang.  The Bible is clear about creation.

What is the compelling evidence that a) “something has always existed”, and b) that the something is a God?

And why should we care what an ancient and pre-scientific book has to say about such matters?

Ron

 
MrRon
 
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MrRon
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18 December 2018 17:17
 
EN - 18 December 2018 01:13 PM
MrRon - 17 December 2018 06:32 PM

What does it mean to have existence without change in nature?
   

I’m just going to respond to this question, since your other comments are changing the subject.

The presentation of God in the Bible is one of immutability.  “For I, the LORD, do not change…” Malachi 3:6.  “But Thou art the same, And Thy years will not come to an end.” Psalm 102:27.  I know you don’t accept the Bible, but to understand existence without change in nature, one must understand something of the theological concept of immutability.  The Immutability of God is an attribute that God is unchanging in his character, will, and covenant promises.  He does not develop or grow old. He does not change with the circumstances. He does not suffer the ravages of time like everything else in the created order. He does not decay. As such, he stands untouched by time. That’s what my phrase meant.

Thanks EN. But none of that necessarily indicates that a God would exist outside of time. It just means that his character doesn’t change and that he doesn’t age or decay.

Also, according to the Bible, all of creation was formed in 7 days. That implies that even God had to work in some temporal reference frame in order to create the time and space that we are familiar with. 

Lastly, out of curiosity, how would you distinguish something that is outside of time and space from something that doesn’t exist at all?

Ron

 
Poldano
 
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Poldano
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18 December 2018 23:51
 

To pick a nit, I did not say that God existed outside of time. I said God existed independently of time. The latter is closer to the Judaic notion of God that EN posted than the former.

The possibilities of existence cannot be constrained by what we can imagine.

I equate the term God with the term Reality, because I cannot tell the difference between them after eliminating what they cannot be. I understand that something that does not exist in time can be seen as non-existent, because existence is determined by interaction, and interaction requires time. Nonetheless, the notion of an unchanging First Cause was articulated by Aristotle, without reference to time at all. So at least one of the primary characteristics, in our terms, of existence independent of time was articulated quite seductively long ago.

By the way, according to Christian lore, God (as a Christian personification) did create a place where everyone could be happy forever. It is called Heaven in that lore. Why aren’t we all there? I can only speculate, and if I do so, I will do it quite irreverently.

 
 
MrRon
 
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MrRon
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19 December 2018 06:07
 
Poldano - 18 December 2018 11:51 PM

To pick a nit, I did not say that God existed outside of time. I said God existed independently of time. The latter is closer to the Judaic notion of God that EN posted than the former.

OK. So what’s the difference between something existing “outside” of time and something existing “independent” of time? I would think that neither of those are affected by time, no?

The possibilities of existence cannot be constrained by what we can imagine.

But that doesn’t justify asserting the unfalsifiable.

I equate the term God with the term Reality, because I cannot tell the difference between them after eliminating what they cannot be.

Interesting. Are you a Pantheist of some sort?

I understand that something that does not exist in time can be seen as non-existent, because existence is determined by interaction, and interaction requires time. Nonetheless, the notion of an unchanging First Cause was articulated by Aristotle, without reference to time at all. So at least one of the primary characteristics, in our terms, of existence independent of time was articulated quite seductively long ago.

The notion of a First Cause is just more special pleading. And the fact that it was articulated by Aristotle long ago is irrelevant.

By the way, according to Christian lore, God (as a Christian personification) did create a place where everyone could be happy forever. It is called Heaven in that lore. Why aren’t we all there? I can only speculate, and if I do so, I will do it quite irreverently.

When I referred to the possibility of God creating us in his own a-temporal reference frame I wasn’t referring to Heaven, or a place of eternal “happiness”. I was just referring to a different dimension not constrained by time as we know it - God’s dimension. He could have easily done that, while still subjecting us to judgment, rewards, punishment, etc. To posit that there are TWO temporal reference frames and (ostensibly) two different sets of physical laws at work is just one more thing for believers to explain.     

Ron

 
EN
 
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EN
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19 December 2018 07:18
 
MrRon - 18 December 2018 05:17 PM

Also, according to the Bible, all of creation was formed in 7 days. That implies that even God had to work in some temporal reference frame in order to create the time and space that we are familiar with. 

Lastly, out of curiosity, how would you distinguish something that is outside of time and space from something that doesn’t exist at all?

Ron

7 days is a metaphor, in my opinion, and the days are marked from the creative act, not before. God was there “in the beginning”, before the 7 days began. “I am that I am” is a statement of being, uninfluenced by time.  Time and space are characteristic of our universe, but there is nothing that proves that time or space had any meaning prior to the Big Bang. Being is independent of space and time.

Take the example of a dream.  The actual dream sequence may take just a few seconds as measured by a clock, but the experience of being in the dream may seem much longer.

Anyway, this is all speculation and faith, as none of us can get on the other side of the Big Bang or into the divine dimension. Just makes for interesting conversation.

 
TwoSeven1
 
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TwoSeven1
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19 December 2018 08:11
 
MrRon - 18 December 2018 04:54 PM
TwoSeven1 - 18 December 2018 12:20 PM
MrRon - 17 December 2018 06:32 PM
EN - 17 December 2018 10:42 AM
MrRon - 17 December 2018 03:19 AM
Poldano - 16 December 2018 01:11 AM

I think God exists independently of time; that’s what eternal really means. Therefore the notion of God having a beginning or a starting time for appearance in our universe is inaccurate.

How can anything exist independent of time?? And doesn’t eternal mean “lasting forever”, which necessarily entails time?

Ron

Time begins with the Big Bang. On the other side of the Big Bang we don’t know what exists. A state of existence without change in nature would be independent of time.  Doesn’t prove anything, but conceptually I don’t find it difficult to imagine existence apart from time.

What does it mean to have existence without change in nature?

And why did God have to make a special temporal dimension just for us? Couldn’t he just have us exist in his own time-independent reference frame, whatever that would be? This whole “God is outside time and space” business is nothing but special pleading. Anything that does not exist in time is indistinguishable from the non-existent. No time, no existence. Period.   

Ron        

 

If your source for learning about God is the Bible, then you can observe that time is referred to in the text frequently, and that God is described as eternal.

Again, eternal means “lasting forever”, which necessarily entails time. Therefore, God must exist in time.

If you believe the Big Bang caused the observable world to happen, then you would have to acknowledge that something had to have always existed.  I’m sure not many folks would argue that something comes from nothing.

It doesn’t necessarily follow that “something had to have always existed.”

If one can believe that the something has always existed, then why is it hard to believe that God has always existed? That’s not to say that God created the Big Bang.  The Bible is clear about creation.

What is the compelling evidence that a) “something has always existed”, and b) that the something is a God?

And why should we care what an ancient and pre-scientific book has to say about such matters?

Ron

The Big Bang could not have happened if nothing existed to cause it to happen.  I am not completely up-to-date with current theory, but I’ve heard a few of the different ideas around it.

Doesn’t matter which idea is followed; for something to go bang, there has to be something causing the bang.  There can’t be nothing causing a bang.

As to the question about the Bible -

There are a mountain of compelling reasons to care about what it says.  I don’t believe that the Bible calls anyone to have “blind faith.”  It details nearly everything that someone could have questions about in regard to the beginning of life, the meaning of life, right and wrong, sin and death, etc…

Edit:  Added response to the time question below-

Sorry I didn’t see your response to this right away… I wasn’t making the case that God exists outside of time.  Actually the opposite.  I disagree with people who say that God exists outside of time.  The Bible doesn’t say that or alude to it.  It does refer to him as eternal, though.

[ Edited: 19 December 2018 08:57 by TwoSeven1]
 
MrRon
 
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MrRon
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19 December 2018 14:37
 
EN - 19 December 2018 07:18 AM
MrRon - 18 December 2018 05:17 PM

Also, according to the Bible, all of creation was formed in 7 days. That implies that even God had to work in some temporal reference frame in order to create the time and space that we are familiar with. 

Lastly, out of curiosity, how would you distinguish something that is outside of time and space from something that doesn’t exist at all?

Ron

7 days is a metaphor, in my opinion, and the days are marked from the creative act, not before. God was there “in the beginning”, before the 7 days began. “I am that I am” is a statement of being, uninfluenced by time.  Time and space are characteristic of our universe, but there is nothing that proves that time or space had any meaning prior to the Big Bang. Being is independent of space and time.

How do you know “God was there in the beginning”? How do you distinguish that which exists independent of space and time from that which does not exist at all?

Take the example of a dream.  The actual dream sequence may take just a few seconds as measured by a clock, but the experience of being in the dream may seem much longer.

Anyway, this is all speculation and faith, as none of us can get on the other side of the Big Bang or into the divine dimension. Just makes for interesting conversation.

I agree, it does make for interesting conversation.

Ron

 
MrRon
 
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MrRon
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19 December 2018 14:54
 
TwoSeven1 - 19 December 2018 08:11 AM
MrRon - 18 December 2018 04:54 PM
TwoSeven1 - 18 December 2018 12:20 PM
MrRon - 17 December 2018 06:32 PM
EN - 17 December 2018 10:42 AM
MrRon - 17 December 2018 03:19 AM
Poldano - 16 December 2018 01:11 AM

I think God exists independently of time; that’s what eternal really means. Therefore the notion of God having a beginning or a starting time for appearance in our universe is inaccurate.

How can anything exist independent of time?? And doesn’t eternal mean “lasting forever”, which necessarily entails time?

Ron

Time begins with the Big Bang. On the other side of the Big Bang we don’t know what exists. A state of existence without change in nature would be independent of time.  Doesn’t prove anything, but conceptually I don’t find it difficult to imagine existence apart from time.

What does it mean to have existence without change in nature?

And why did God have to make a special temporal dimension just for us? Couldn’t he just have us exist in his own time-independent reference frame, whatever that would be? This whole “God is outside time and space” business is nothing but special pleading. Anything that does not exist in time is indistinguishable from the non-existent. No time, no existence. Period.   

Ron        

 

If your source for learning about God is the Bible, then you can observe that time is referred to in the text frequently, and that God is described as eternal.

Again, eternal means “lasting forever”, which necessarily entails time. Therefore, God must exist in time.

If you believe the Big Bang caused the observable world to happen, then you would have to acknowledge that something had to have always existed.  I’m sure not many folks would argue that something comes from nothing.

It doesn’t necessarily follow that “something had to have always existed.”

If one can believe that the something has always existed, then why is it hard to believe that God has always existed? That’s not to say that God created the Big Bang.  The Bible is clear about creation.

What is the compelling evidence that a) “something has always existed”, and b) that the something is a God?

And why should we care what an ancient and pre-scientific book has to say about such matters?

Ron

The Big Bang could not have happened if nothing existed to cause it to happen.  I am not completely up-to-date with current theory, but I’ve heard a few of the different ideas around it.

Doesn’t matter which idea is followed; for something to go bang, there has to be something causing the bang.  There can’t be nothing causing a bang.

I doubt modern physicists would agree with that. It’s understood that virtual particles do come into existence from “nothing.” I suggest Lawrence Krauss’s book “A Universe From Nothing” for a deeper dive into the physics. 

As to the question about the Bible -

There are a mountain of compelling reasons to care about what it says.  I don’t believe that the Bible calls anyone to have “blind faith.”  It details nearly everything that someone could have questions about in regard to the beginning of life, the meaning of life, right and wrong, sin and death, etc…

What do you consider to be the main reason to care what the Bible says? And if it could be shown that there are contradictions or errors in the Bible, would that change your mind, or cause you to question your beliefs? (I assume you are a believer)

Edit:  Added response to the time question below-

Sorry I didn’t see your response to this right away… I wasn’t making the case that God exists outside of time.  Actually the opposite.  I disagree with people who say that God exists outside of time.  The Bible doesn’t say that or alude to it.  It does refer to him as eternal, though.

Thanks for the clarification.

Ron

 
TwoSeven1
 
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TwoSeven1
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21 December 2018 08:03
 
MrRon - 19 December 2018 02:54 PM
TwoSeven1 - 19 December 2018 08:11 AM
MrRon - 18 December 2018 04:54 PM
TwoSeven1 - 18 December 2018 12:20 PM
MrRon - 17 December 2018 06:32 PM
EN - 17 December 2018 10:42 AM
MrRon - 17 December 2018 03:19 AM
Poldano - 16 December 2018 01:11 AM

I think God exists independently of time; that’s what eternal really means. Therefore the notion of God having a beginning or a starting time for appearance in our universe is inaccurate.

How can anything exist independent of time?? And doesn’t eternal mean “lasting forever”, which necessarily entails time?

Ron

Time begins with the Big Bang. On the other side of the Big Bang we don’t know what exists. A state of existence without change in nature would be independent of time.  Doesn’t prove anything, but conceptually I don’t find it difficult to imagine existence apart from time.

What does it mean to have existence without change in nature?

And why did God have to make a special temporal dimension just for us? Couldn’t he just have us exist in his own time-independent reference frame, whatever that would be? This whole “God is outside time and space” business is nothing but special pleading. Anything that does not exist in time is indistinguishable from the non-existent. No time, no existence. Period.   

Ron        

 

If your source for learning about God is the Bible, then you can observe that time is referred to in the text frequently, and that God is described as eternal.

Again, eternal means “lasting forever”, which necessarily entails time. Therefore, God must exist in time.

If you believe the Big Bang caused the observable world to happen, then you would have to acknowledge that something had to have always existed.  I’m sure not many folks would argue that something comes from nothing.

It doesn’t necessarily follow that “something had to have always existed.”

If one can believe that the something has always existed, then why is it hard to believe that God has always existed? That’s not to say that God created the Big Bang.  The Bible is clear about creation.

What is the compelling evidence that a) “something has always existed”, and b) that the something is a God?

And why should we care what an ancient and pre-scientific book has to say about such matters?

Ron

The Big Bang could not have happened if nothing existed to cause it to happen.  I am not completely up-to-date with current theory, but I’ve heard a few of the different ideas around it.

Doesn’t matter which idea is followed; for something to go bang, there has to be something causing the bang.  There can’t be nothing causing a bang.

I doubt modern physicists would agree with that. It’s understood that virtual particles do come into existence from “nothing.” I suggest Lawrence Krauss’s book “A Universe From Nothing” for a deeper dive into the physics. 

As to the question about the Bible -

There are a mountain of compelling reasons to care about what it says.  I don’t believe that the Bible calls anyone to have “blind faith.”  It details nearly everything that someone could have questions about in regard to the beginning of life, the meaning of life, right and wrong, sin and death, etc…

What do you consider to be the main reason to care what the Bible says? And if it could be shown that there are contradictions or errors in the Bible, would that change your mind, or cause you to question your beliefs? (I assume you are a believer)

Edit:  Added response to the time question below-

Sorry I didn’t see your response to this right away… I wasn’t making the case that God exists outside of time.  Actually the opposite.  I disagree with people who say that God exists outside of time.  The Bible doesn’t say that or alude to it.  It does refer to him as eternal, though.

Thanks for the clarification.

Ron

Theoretical physics doesn’t explain everything, though.  Theoretical physics seeks to predict and explain phenomena.  It’s not always right either.

How could something possibly come from nothing, and how could someone explain something coming from nothing?  Isn’t science the study of what is?  If scientists are claiming that they know the Universe came from nothing, then they aren’t using the scientific method.

The main compelling reason for believing the Bible:

1.  The canon of Scripture is composed of 66 different books and letters which were written by 40 different authors over a long period of time.

2.  The time period that the books were written over makes it impossible that the different authors personally knew each other.

3.  Many of the books of the Old Testament prophesy about events that took place in the new Testament, which, apart from God’s involvement, is an impossibility.

To your question on conflicts within the Bible:

This is my personal experience, so it may not be what your asking for.  I have only heard folks who disagree with the Bible point out sections that may appear to conflict because they are taken out of context.  Each section of the Bible has a specific setting and context.

 
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