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Views on forgiveness

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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05 January 2019 16:50
 
Dissily Mordentroge - 05 January 2019 03:03 PM
Jan_CAN - 05 January 2019 07:01 AM

When I was in the transition from believer-agnostic-atheist, there was a time I was angry at God too.  For me, the only resolution was to realize that the state of the world we live in only made sense if there was no god, at least not the type of god described by our human-created religions.

Thanks for the welcome Jan. I’m somewhat apprehensive at the level of debate here when it takes on the cloak of academic philosophy. My Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy will probably need to be consulted frequently just to assertain what’s being said and even then the task of providing anything like valid responses may be duanting.
There’s another contentious topic within your ‘the world we live in only made sense if there was no God’ in that most of us at some time or other have assumed God necessarily had to make sense. If we take the God of the Old Testament as any indication he seldom did. In fact for a period in my youth when I believed in a God I wasn’t willing to forgive him for his creation always imagining the day I got to confront the deity as an opportunity to tell him off and ask for an explanation for his sadistic, unpredictable actions, especially the torturing of his own son who (if we swallow trinitarian theology whole) is actually himself. Mad, bad and crazy really.

Please don’t be apprehensive, although I was too when I first joined.  I think the forum benefits from the perspectives of people with varied backgrounds.

Here is some advice I received when I first joined:
https://forum.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/68790/#844442
(As you can see, I did stick around, learned a few things, and have had some fun too.)

If you like, you could post an intro about yourself under The Forum Fixtures:  “Introductions”.

 

 
 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
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05 January 2019 19:10
 
Dissily Mordentroge, to GAD - 04 January 2019 11:21 PM

. . .

I’ll try and ignore the question of free will in relation to blame. . . .

For what it’s worth, my take on the question of free will as it applies to forgiveness is that a good many people seem not to have any free will whatsoever when it comes to managing their emotions. They must have been sick that day.

I’m a proponent of using the term free will as it’s currently used by everyday people. Sam Harris seems to see things differently. He’s a linguistic literalist (that’s not an actual term!) in at least that one concept.

A warm welcome, Dissily. This little clique always loves it when new talent arrives.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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05 January 2019 21:23
 

Forgive and/or Forget is my motto.
Hanging on to rage, grudges, anger takes far to much energy.

 
 
Gone
 
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Gone
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05 January 2019 22:33
 
Jefe - 05 January 2019 09:23 PM

Forgive and/or Forget is my motto.
Hanging on to rage, grudges, anger takes far to much energy.

True but if you both forgive and forget the snake who last bit you when you stood on it, you’ll do it again.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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06 January 2019 04:55
 
Dissily Mordentroge - 05 January 2019 10:33 PM
Jefe - 05 January 2019 09:23 PM

Forgive and/or Forget is my motto.
Hanging on to rage, grudges, anger takes far to much energy.

True but if you both forgive and forget the snake who last bit you when you stood on it, you’ll do it again.

I never mentioned gullibility as part of my outlook.

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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hannahtoo
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06 January 2019 06:34
 

I read an interesting take on the motto, “forgive and forget.”  If a person forgives (ie releases the resentment), he is able to forget (and lose the bitterness).  The forgiveness is a conscious action, and the forgetting is a subconscious result.

Forgiving, in this sense of the word, helps the forgiver move on.  Of course, this does not mean that a person should want to forget continuing danger.  Just not have the past insult continually digging at him.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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06 January 2019 06:34
 
Jefe - 05 January 2019 09:23 PM

Forgive and/or Forget is my motto.
Hanging on to rage, grudges, anger takes far to much energy.

Sounds lazy, but if that has value for you, then it’s what you should do.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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06 January 2019 20:46
 
GAD - 06 January 2019 06:34 AM
Jefe - 05 January 2019 09:23 PM

Forgive and/or Forget is my motto.
Hanging on to rage, grudges, anger takes far to much energy.

Sounds lazy, but if that has value for you, then it’s what you should do.

Maybe it is lazy, but I prefer to invest energy into more positive pursuits.

 
 
SkepticX
 
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SkepticX
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09 January 2019 06:32
 
Jefe - 06 January 2019 08:46 PM
GAD - 06 January 2019 06:34 AM
Jefe - 05 January 2019 09:23 PM

Forgive and/or Forget is my motto.
Hanging on to rage, grudges, anger takes far to much energy.

Sounds lazy, but if that has value for you, then it’s what you should do.

Maybe it is lazy, but I prefer to invest energy into more positive pursuits.


It’s not lazy, it’s playing well with the other children/accepting the realities of life amongst the other humans (and probably another difference in play here is that you accept you’re not a superior being as compared to your fellow humans).

So another way to put that is you take honesty seriously enough that you take proper measures to vet your perceptions and sentiments and such (you’re not being presumptuous when you consider others and your own place in society regarding forgiveness).

That said, I’m all for forgiveness, but I don’t advocate attaching forgetfulness. We should ideally be able to forgive, including each others’ shortcomings to a reasonable extent, but forgetting inclinations or someone’s nature doesn’t seem realistic (or smart to) me.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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09 January 2019 09:51
 
SkepticX - 09 January 2019 06:32 AM

That said, I’m all for forgiveness, but I don’t advocate attaching forgetfulness. We should ideally be able to forgive, including each others’ shortcomings to a reasonable extent, but forgetting inclinations or someone’s nature doesn’t seem realistic (or smart to) me.

Like I said, gullibility is not part of my philosophy.
I.e. I will not loan money to a buddy who repeatedly fails to pay me back.  However I also will not hold it against him or her for the rest of our lives.  I will take responsibility for having loaned in the first place and realize it is a bad investment for the future of money loans.  Same with actions, behaviours and attitudes of others.  I will not hold a grudge, but I also will not go out of my way to interact with those whose interactions are unrewarding.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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30 January 2019 07:09
 

A tragedy last year in Saskatchewan, where a collision of a semi truck with a bus carrying the Humboldt Broncos hockey team resulted in the deaths of 16 and injuries to 13 others, sadly shows the effects of pain, anger, and different attitudes about forgiveness.


‘I forgive you’: Widow of Humboldt Broncos coach shows mercy to driver of deadly semi
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/humboldt-broncos-sentencing-jaskirat-sidhu-1.4996896

Humboldt Broncos mother says truck driver that caused crash does not deserve forgiveness
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-humboldt-broncos-mother-says-truck-driver-that-caused-crash-does-not/

‘I hurt everywhere’: Families describe pain and loss during Humboldt Broncos crash sentencing hearing
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/humboldt-crash-driver-sentencing-begins-today-1.4993760


In a statement of facts, both Crown and defence lawyers said the truck driver (Mr. Sidhu) was solely responsible for the crash.  Court also heard that the truck driver was not drunk, high or speeding, and was not using a cell phone at the time of the crash.  It appears that driver fatigue may have been a factor, and a government report stated that Sidhu should not have been on the road at that time.

Sidhu pleaded guilty to 16 counts of dangerous driving causing death and 13 counts of dangerous driving causing bodily harm.  The maximum penalty he could receive is 14 years.

No one should sit in judgement of the despair and anger of a parent of a young son who has died so tragically.  However, the driver did not intend harm to others, has shown remorse and taken responsibility.  In my view, justice would not be served to invoke the maximum or a lengthy prison sentence in this case.

 
 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
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30 January 2019 08:32
 

Here’s someone from a neighboring community from where I live, who fell asleep at the wheel shortly after drinking a beer and ended up killing a young father. He’ll serve 4 months; less if he behaves himself while in jail.
https://www.chicoer.com/2019/01/29/red-bluff-man-will-serve-5-years-probation-for-fatal-crash/

Justice is rare, perhaps because emotions so often overrule good sense.

 
 
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