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Evangelicals for Trump - Their Bargain with the Devil

 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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26 January 2019 10:06
 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/04/the-last-temptation/554066/

quote from this article in the Atlantic:

“Trump supporters tend to dismiss moral scruples about his behavior as squeamishness over the president’s “style.” But the problem is the distinctly non-Christian substance of his values. Trump’s unapologetic materialism—his equation of financial and social success with human achievement and worth—is a negation of Christian teaching. His tribalism and hatred for “the other” stand in direct opposition to Jesus’s radical ethic of neighbor love. Trump’s strength-worship and contempt for “losers” smack more of Nietzsche than of Christ. Blessed are the proud. Blessed are the ruthless. Blessed are the shameless. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after fame.” 

quote:  “According to Jerry Falwell Jr., evangelicals have “Found their dream president,” which says something about the current quality of evangelical dreams . . . Fox News and conservative talk radio are vastly greater influences on evangelicals’ political identity than formal statements by religious denominations . . . Every strong Trump supporter has decided that racism is not a moral disqualification in the president of the United States . . . Evangelicals remain the mort loyal element of the Trump coalition.  They are broadly eager to act as his shield and sword.  They are his army of enablers.”

The author of this article is Michael Gerson, a level-headed evangelical who writes a syndicated column appearing twice-weekly in the Washington Post.

If you are interested, and take the time to read this article, notice that there’s little mention of Trump degrading the environment for profit.

Question:  Is it because evangelicals expect the world to end soon so trashing the planet for future generations doesn’t matter?  (Trump is trashing the planet for profit, whereas evangelicals are trashing it because it doesn’t matter - Jesus is coming soon and it’s all going to end).

[ Edited: 27 January 2019 10:35 by unsmoked]
 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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26 January 2019 12:13
 

Yep, the believe in the End Times has probably never been more intensive as today -
- probably because Evangelicals are hemorrhaging numbers like never before. For many churches, its the last chance to cash in, politically and monetary.

Trump is just something to point to, as opposed to Obama, who was someone to point away from: but appearance of the New Messiah works just as well as the Physical Incarnation of Satan to justify why you have to donate NOW, possibly minutes befoer the Rapture.

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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26 January 2019 20:43
 

It’s a giant racket, the biggest con game around.

 
proximacentauri
 
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proximacentauri
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28 January 2019 08:51
 
EN - 26 January 2019 08:43 PM

It’s a giant racket, the biggest con game around.

It’s a con game but evangelicals have long been problematic for a number of reasons and most problematic in my view is their political activism which continues to grow stronger every year. Evangelicals are the ‘American Taliban’, and they want to impose their way of thinking on the whole of America. They are not at liberty to kill, so to make this happen they’ve concentrated on establishing their political might.

As a voting demographic, they have the most staunchly held ideological stances. They’ll chuck everything Jesus taught into the shit-can to get their ideological way. The mentality they’ve adopted is not ‘Love your Neighbor’ but ‘Hate Your Neighbor’. The trouble with Christianity is one can rationalize their hatreds to think they are in-keeping with their faith.

1000 evangelicals chained together at the bottom of the ocean would be a good start and I would definitely take that over 1000 lawyers. I realize you’re not an evangelical and I’m not implying your politics are like theirs - I don’t think they are from your posts here. I’m just venting in your direction because you self-identify as Christian, and in doing so - even though it may not be your intention - provide tacit support for their belief-system and by default its attendant politics.

The greatest con of all time is religion.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” - Seneca

 

[ Edited: 28 January 2019 08:58 by proximacentauri]
 
EN
 
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28 January 2019 09:11
 
proximacentauri - 28 January 2019 08:51 AM

I’m just venting in your direction because you self-identify as Christian, and in doing so - even though it may not be your intention - provide tacit support for their belief-system and by default its attendant politics.

This is absolute bullshit.  I don’t provide tacit support for perversions of Christianity any more than you provide tacit support for some of the atheist totalitarians who have graced our history.

 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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28 January 2019 10:20
 
EN - 28 January 2019 09:11 AM
proximacentauri - 28 January 2019 08:51 AM

I’m just venting in your direction because you self-identify as Christian, and in doing so - even though it may not be your intention - provide tacit support for their belief-system and by default its attendant politics.

This is absolute bullshit.  I don’t provide tacit support for perversions of Christianity any more than you provide tacit support for some of the atheist totalitarians who have graced our history.

I agree with Bruce.  I haven’t seen him post in support of the uglier sides of christianity here.

 
 
proximacentauri
 
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proximacentauri
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28 January 2019 10:47
 
EN - 28 January 2019 09:11 AM
proximacentauri - 28 January 2019 08:51 AM

I’m just venting in your direction because you self-identify as Christian, and in doing so - even though it may not be your intention - provide tacit support for their belief-system and by default its attendant politics.

This is absolute bullshit.  I don’t provide tacit support for perversions of Christianity any more than you provide tacit support for some of the atheist totalitarians who have graced our history.

Not intentionally, no. But it doesn’t matter what you think, it only matters what they think. By virtue of the fact that you self-identify as a Christian, the ideological evangelical types may glean a feeling of support from that. As long as you believe that Jesus was/is the son of God, on a base level they can identify with that and could view you as sympathetic to their views, no matter what your personal political views may be.

You choose to self-identify as a Christian on an Atheist forum dedicated to reason. Christians will view that as support for Christianity and Christians in general. The fact that your version of Christianity is your own and your views are very divergent from classic evangelicalism might be forgiven, because, at least you’re not the enemy - an Atheist.

 

 
EN
 
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28 January 2019 12:19
 
proximacentauri - 28 January 2019 10:47 AM
EN - 28 January 2019 09:11 AM
proximacentauri - 28 January 2019 08:51 AM

I’m just venting in your direction because you self-identify as Christian, and in doing so - even though it may not be your intention - provide tacit support for their belief-system and by default its attendant politics.

This is absolute bullshit.  I don’t provide tacit support for perversions of Christianity any more than you provide tacit support for some of the atheist totalitarians who have graced our history.

Not intentionally, no. But it doesn’t matter what you think, it only matters what they think. By virtue of the fact that you self-identify as a Christian, the ideological evangelical types may glean a feeling of support from that. As long as you believe that Jesus was/is the son of God, on a base level they can identify with that and could view you as sympathetic to their views, no matter what your personal political views may be.

You choose to self-identify as a Christian on an Atheist forum dedicated to reason. Christians will view that as support for Christianity and Christians in general. The fact that your version of Christianity is your own and your views are very divergent from classic evangelicalism might be forgiven, because, at least you’re not the enemy - an Atheist.

Sorry, but you are wrong. I openly state what I believe here, even if it is against orthodox Christian doctrine or evangelical political positions.  You are communicating with me now. The fact that you are communicating with me from an atheist perspective means that you are providing tacit support, irrespective of what you think, for all the horrible things that some atheists have done by abusing the political process.  Sauce for the goose.  Are you going to say that I can never communicate with an atheist without tacitly supporting other Christians?  Then the same applies to you.

Mario is a Christian on this forum and he thinks I’m doing a disservice to Christianity by taking the positions I take.  My presence here is actually more likely to draw negative comments from mainstream Christians than shows of approval.  Furthermore, just because this is a forum dedicated to reason does not mean that all atheists here properly use reason.  Sometimes they need to be called out for less than logical views, such as now.

 

 
Cheshire Cat
 
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28 January 2019 12:47
 

I think this is a relevant quote from Chris Hedges’ book, America: The Farewell Tour, which equates Trump the con man with megachurch pastor con men:

On the surface it appears to be incongruous that the Christian Right would rally behind a slick New York real estate developer who is a public serial philanderer and adulterer, has no regard for the truth, is consumed by greed, does not appear to read or know the Bible, routinely defrauds and cheats his investors and contractors, expresses a crude misogyny and an even cruder narcissism, and appears to yearn for despotism. In fact, these are the very characteristics that define many of the leaders of the Christian right.
Trump has preyed on desperate people through the thousands of a slot machines in his casinos, his sham university, and his real estate deals. Megachurch pastors prey on their followers by extracting “seed offerings,” “love gifts,” tithes, and donations and by selling miracle healing along with “prayer cloths,” self-help books, audio and video recordings, and even protein shakes. Pastors have established within their megachurches, as Trump did in his businesses, despotic fiefdoms. They cannot be challenged or questioned any more than an omnipotent Trump could be challenged on the reality television show The Apprentice. And they seek to replicate their little tyrannies on a national scale, with white men in charge.

If you are a sheep, you yearn to be led.

[ Edited: 28 January 2019 18:17 by Cheshire Cat]
 
 
LadyJane
 
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28 January 2019 13:18
 

The moderates are apologists for the fundamentalists and the agnostics are apologists for the moderates.

Anything that strays from any of the holy books is arguably a perversion of the original text.  What veers from that interpretation is just a further perversion.  An extension of an extension of something that was a perversion of the “truth” in the first place.

These fairy tales were established to impart moral lessons.  That was at the centre of intention.  The morality itself has been perverted to justify political pursuits.  If the perversion is so easily manipulated and recited by rote then it’s hardly worth teaching.

Maybe it’s time for a new story.  One less perverted.

 
 
proximacentauri
 
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28 January 2019 13:19
 
EN - 28 January 2019 12:19 PM
proximacentauri - 28 January 2019 10:47 AM
EN - 28 January 2019 09:11 AM
proximacentauri - 28 January 2019 08:51 AM

I’m just venting in your direction because you self-identify as Christian, and in doing so - even though it may not be your intention - provide tacit support for their belief-system and by default its attendant politics.

This is absolute bullshit.  I don’t provide tacit support for perversions of Christianity any more than you provide tacit support for some of the atheist totalitarians who have graced our history.

Not intentionally, no. But it doesn’t matter what you think, it only matters what they think. By virtue of the fact that you self-identify as a Christian, the ideological evangelical types may glean a feeling of support from that. As long as you believe that Jesus was/is the son of God, on a base level they can identify with that and could view you as sympathetic to their views, no matter what your personal political views may be.

You choose to self-identify as a Christian on an Atheist forum dedicated to reason. Christians will view that as support for Christianity and Christians in general. The fact that your version of Christianity is your own and your views are very divergent from classic evangelicalism might be forgiven, because, at least you’re not the enemy - an Atheist.

Sorry, but you are wrong. I openly state what I believe here, even if it is against orthodox Christian doctrine or evangelical political positions.  You are communicating with me now. The fact that you are communicating with me from an atheist perspective means that you are providing tacit support, irrespective of what you think, for all the horrible things that some atheists have done by abusing the political process.  Sauce for the goose.  Are you going to say that I can never communicate with an atheist without tacitly supporting other Christians?  Then the same applies to you.

Mario is a Christian on this forum and he thinks I’m doing a disservice to Christianity by taking the positions I take.  My presence here is actually more likely to draw negative comments from mainstream Christians than shows of approval.  Furthermore, just because this is a forum dedicated to reason does not mean that all atheists here properly use reason.  Sometimes they need to be called out for less than logical views, such as now.

What are the “horrible things that some atheists have done by abusing the political process”? Are you trotting out the old and tired argument that atheists are committing horrible things politically or atrocities against humanity under a non-existant ‘Banner of Atheism’? I don’t see my self-identification as an atheist as tacit support for “horrible things” committed in the name of atheism, because it’s a false narrative.

You have an extremely moderated view of Christianity. I get that. You’re using Mario as an example of what you’re not, yet you’ve teamed up with Mario in past threads against newbie atheists. Odd bedfellows but bonded by a common core belief perhaps? And exactly my point. In that instance, you provided tacit support to Mario’s extreme views and hatred of non-believers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
EN
 
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29 January 2019 05:34
 

What I’m saying is that if I give tacit approval of Mario’s extremism, then you give tacit approval to Pol Pot’s.  Just because one agrees with a person on one thing does not mean that they approve of all things that person believes, tacitly or otherwise. I can see you don’t understand this, so further discussion appears futile.i

 
unsmoked
 
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29 January 2019 11:09
 
EN - 29 January 2019 05:34 AM

What I’m saying is that if I give tacit approval of Mario’s extremism, then you give tacit approval to Pol Pot’s.  Just because one agrees with a person on one thing does not mean that they approve of all things that person believes, tacitly or otherwise. I can see you don’t understand this, so further discussion appears futile.i

The entire premise of the Christian faith is coercion at “gunpoint” so to speak.  Their central theme is that humans are so inherently awful just by existing that they deserve hell, and the only way out of it is not to be a compassionate, empathetic, moral human being but to worship just the “right” god- something, by the way, almost entirely determined by where you’re born and who raises you.

They like to tout “free will” choice- but if the choice is “worship me or else” how is that free?  It is the mugger telling you to hand over your purse or get shot.  Hypothetically you could of course have the “free will” to get shot instead, but a threat of violence is coercion and not really a free choice.  -  Sarah Geer, Jan. 19, 2016 (quoted from a related topic on another forum)

Unsmoked comments:  Brother Mario likes to point out that there are more than 2,000,000,000 Christians in the world; that practically every town in the Western World has dozens of church spires with their crosses poking into the sky.  At that rate, how could he possibly be mistaken?

Q:  Is fake news like the Bible?  If enough people are duped by it - it’s not fake news?  If a book is said to be written by God it’s not fake news?  If God, personally tells it to Brother Mario it’s not fake news?  What else has God said personally to his favorite people?  https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/cr_list.html  Example:  “Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own.”  Deuteronomy” 17:2-7 (viewer discretion is advised)

“I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to the Father but by me.”  -  Jesus

“If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.”  -  Jesus

 

[ Edited: 29 January 2019 11:24 by unsmoked]
 
 
EN
 
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29 January 2019 14:29
 
unsmoked - 29 January 2019 11:09 AM
EN - 29 January 2019 05:34 AM

What I’m saying is that if I give tacit approval of Mario’s extremism, then you give tacit approval to Pol Pot’s.  Just because one agrees with a person on one thing does not mean that they approve of all things that person believes, tacitly or otherwise. I can see you don’t understand this, so further discussion appears futile.i

The entire premise of the Christian faith is coercion at “gunpoint” so to speak.  Their central theme is that humans are so inherently awful just by existing that they deserve hell, and the only way out of it is not to be a compassionate, empathetic, moral human being but to worship just the “right” god- something, by the way, almost entirely determined by where you’re born and who raises you.

They like to tout “free will” choice- but if the choice is “worship me or else” how is that free?  It is the mugger telling you to hand over your purse or get shot.  Hypothetically you could of course have the “free will” to get shot instead, but a threat of violence is coercion and not really a free choice.  -  Sarah Geer, Jan. 19, 2016 (quoted from a related topic on another forum)

Unsmoked comments:  Brother Mario likes to point out that there are more than 2,000,000,000 Christians in the world; that practically every town in the Western World has dozens of church spires with their crosses poking into the sky.  At that rate, how could he possibly be mistaken?

Q:  Is fake news like the Bible?  If enough people are duped by it - it’s not fake news?  If a book is said to be written by God it’s not fake news?  If God, personally tells it to Brother Mario it’s not fake news?  What else has God said personally to his favorite people?  https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/cr_list.html  Example:  “Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own.”  Deuteronomy” 17:2-7 (viewer discretion is advised)

“I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to the Father but by me.”  -  Jesus

“If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.”  -  Jesus

What is your point here?  How does this relate to my quote or to the subject that is being argued?  Should I quote some Mao or Pol Pot to you?

 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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30 January 2019 10:09
 
EN - 29 January 2019 02:29 PM
unsmoked - 29 January 2019 11:09 AM
EN - 29 January 2019 05:34 AM

What I’m saying is that if I give tacit approval of Mario’s extremism, then you give tacit approval to Pol Pot’s.  Just because one agrees with a person on one thing does not mean that they approve of all things that person believes, tacitly or otherwise. I can see you don’t understand this, so further discussion appears futile.i

The entire premise of the Christian faith is coercion at “gunpoint” so to speak.  Their central theme is that humans are so inherently awful just by existing that they deserve hell, and the only way out of it is not to be a compassionate, empathetic, moral human being but to worship just the “right” god- something, by the way, almost entirely determined by where you’re born and who raises you.

They like to tout “free will” choice- but if the choice is “worship me or else” how is that free?  It is the mugger telling you to hand over your purse or get shot.  Hypothetically you could of course have the “free will” to get shot instead, but a threat of violence is coercion and not really a free choice.  -  Sarah Geer, Jan. 19, 2016 (quoted from a related topic on another forum)

Unsmoked comments:  Brother Mario likes to point out that there are more than 2,000,000,000 Christians in the world; that practically every town in the Western World has dozens of church spires with their crosses poking into the sky.  At that rate, how could he possibly be mistaken?

Q:  Is fake news like the Bible?  If enough people are duped by it - it’s not fake news?  If a book is said to be written by God it’s not fake news?  If God, personally tells it to Brother Mario it’s not fake news?  What else has God said personally to his favorite people?  https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/cr_list.html  Example:  “Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own.”  Deuteronomy” 17:2-7 (viewer discretion is advised)

“I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to the Father but by me.”  -  Jesus

“If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.”  -  Jesus

What is your point here?  How does this relate to my quote or to the subject that is being argued?  Should I quote some Mao or Pol Pot to you?

When I surf over the fundamentalist Christian TV channels the preacher is often waving a Bible and quoting from the Old Testament.  Wasn’t Jesus also well-versed in the Old Testament?  Didn’t he think he was the Messiah whose arrival had been prophesied by Old Testament seers?  Doesn’t the OT play an important part in most Christian Sunday Schools for kids, as well as in adult Sunday sermons? 

The subject being argued is evangelical support for Trump.  Millions of people who read the OT and think it was written or dictated by God support Trump.  People who think Deuteronomy was written by God, or dictated to Moses by God - support Trump.  https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/cr_list.html

I don’t equate you with any of this Biblical mayhem, and I trust you don’t equate me with Mr. Pot.  But I’m sure you read some of Sam Harris’s writing before joining this forum.  Most of us here agree with Harris’s observation that Christian fundamentalists (including people like Brother Mario) are convinced that their delusions are true, that science is wrong, because more than 2 billion people agree with them that the Bible is the word of God - that 2 billion people can’t be wrong.  It never occurs to them that most of those 2 billion were simple coerced, conditioned or brain-washed as children, and most of them will do the same to their children.  Unlike you, most of them are afraid to question Biblical nonsense - that’s part of the coercion.  It’s interesting to me that Trump uses similar tactics, like Brother Mario . . . slander, insult, the ruination of your career if you criticize him.  If you challenge his authority you are an enemy of the people and an enemy of God’s chosen people who support him.  Fire and brimstone await you. -  John 15:6

A New Yorker cartoon about Deuteronomy:  https://condenaststore.com/featured/after-everything-we-sacrificed-for-you-david-sipress.html?measurementid=inches

 
 
EN
 
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31 January 2019 12:18
 

I have explicitly criticized the Evangelicals on these points.  That being the case, I reject any implication that I am tacitly providing them cover by simply stating my beliefs.  One cannot tacitly approve what one explicitly rejects. That is my point.

 
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