Occultism, Crowley, Satanism, Luciferianism, Chaos Magick and Atheism.

 
dazpetty
 
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dazpetty
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23 February 2019 09:02
 

Greetings,

I would like to talk to you about Atheistic Black Magick.

I often invoke godheads such as Baal, Lucifer, Satan, Thoth and Set, I do this because it allows me to load new personalities into my subconscious. Invocation

As the Buddha says and Sam Harris has noted, we really don’t have any choice about what our thoughts are, they just appear and we usually go along with them, like being caught in a wave. Occultism and Black Magick gives us the choice to load personalities into our subconscious that can effect the thoughts which will arrive in the future, for example if I go and worship Buddha at the temple I notice that I feel bad about eating meat the next time I go to do so and if I worshiped Buddha everyday I’d probably become a vegetarian. Prayer and ritual effects the subconscious in such a way that it creates the foundation for growing further thoughts.

Whatever religion it is, the fact the way worshiping certain personalities effects our subconscious is something I don’t think Sam has touched on. In much the same way the para-psychological field called NLP uses “role models”, and I imagine many Sam Harris fans have a little version of Sam Harris in their mind that they might use when attempting to consider issues as skeptically, intellectually and rationally as possible.

In Black Magick traditions Satan is the personality of the adversary, whereas Lucifer is often used as an idealized personification of the self, Baal and Thoth for knowledge, and Set is similar to Satan. As well as the obvious aim of effecting the process of thoughts, there is the more aesthetic aim of adjusting the personality simply for charismatic and social purposes, most well-known Satanists or Black Magicians have a kind of aura or charisma associated with black magick.

Curses are something I would also like to talk about, you could put a curse on your boss if he is annoying you, that curse is not merely a wish for the boss to get sick but also an instruction to the subconscious mind how to process whatever emotions the boss is projecting at you. Emotion can tangibly be felt as energy, emotion contains direction and it usually occupies a certain location within the body associated with local physiological responses “butterflies in the stomach”, “love from the heart”, “that person gave me a headache”.

Energy is a useful means to visualize emotion, as well as effecting emotions in a social setting I find visualization useful in influencing the experience of pain when I am sick or injured and helps me progress through that. For example I had a friend who was being annoying to me, telling me what to do, and worse than that it would emotionally shock me and my heart would beat faster when he’d suddenly burst out and order me to do something, so I prepared my subconscious to block emotional energy he sends me through visualization and the next time he went off at me it just went over my head.

Much of this programming of the subconscious can be achieved through the creation of sigils, the creation of symbols along with the visualization of the intent of that symbol gives the mind a visual memory to allocate to that emotional energy instruction. I created a sigil to increase the amount of heartfelt emotion I experience when I meet a girl I like and when I see a beautiful girl I feel my heart move and the girl can tell that, I like that because it’s sort of like spooky action at a distance, I think I will change this however and create a sigil to portray feelings of comfort and rewrite my subconscious mind and the clues it brings to my body language.

I will grant you that most occultists do not limit themselves to “psychological model” occultism, however many of us, such as myself consider the “psychological model” the basis for magick, although within ritual we suspend our disbelief, if we practice strictly “psychological model” only occultism we limit ourselves only to the things we understand at that point in time.

I think I should restate that I am attempting to focus on Atheistic Black Magick, as opposed to voodoo or new age beliefs (although I do use crystals as props in my rituals). For the benefit of having a worthwhile conversation I’d like to steer away from supernatural interpretations.

There is almost too much material on the occult out there to recommend books to read and much of it is full of mumbo jumbo, esoterric jargon and mysticism.

I hope to engage with you in good conversation, I know that a lot of you may immediately want to call what I’ve said here absurd, but I hope anyway that we can engage in a civil conversation and that the discussion will bear fruits of some worth.

Books and essays: The Satanic Bible - Anton Levay, Condensed Chaos - Phil Hine, Liber Null and Psychonaut, Michael W Ford - LUCIFERIANISM: AN INTRODUCTION

Another group of interest is the “order of 9 angles” although their work is more philosophical and definatly has a lot of occult jargon and mumbo jumbo. Naos a practical guide to modern Magick https://www.o9a.org/wp-content/uploads/texts/NAOS-O9A.pdf .

 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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23 February 2019 10:33
 

Greetings to you, too.

If you are approaching this as psychology, why call it magik or occult?

Why rehabilitate the brand? To capitalize on an established franchise? Like Spiderman before him, does Lucifer need a reboot?

 
 
dazpetty
 
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dazpetty
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24 February 2019 00:39
 

@Nhoj Morley

Because the techniques and rituals haven’t changed, there’s only new understandings of how or why it might work. The philosophy is still the same.

The occult has always been a bizarre concoction of spiritualism, mysticism tempered with rationalism and the scientific method. I also think the term occult is relevant when discussing this, because we are after all talking about an occult understanding of religious protagonists, it is not immediately obvious to those practicing Christianity that they are psychologically willing themselves to emulate the mythical personality of Jesus, but that is what they are doing. Similarly when using symbols or sigils to attain some sort of change in a persons life, the conscious meaning and explanation of the sigil (symbol) is abandoned after it’s creation in favor of the subconscious adapting the meaning of the symbol to guide future thoughts and emotional energies. Thus there is the immediate meaning of Jesus or a symbol or a Godhead, and there is also the occult or hidden meaning.

You can use words to describe the beauty of a flower but the beauty itself just has to be experienced, the beauty can only be communicated through initiating a person by giving them an actual flower to look at and smell. To most of us the Christian cross is just a horizontal like and a vertical line together, but to a Christian it holds additional meaning, triggering their subconscious and producing emotional feelings and conscious thoughts when it is seen. The idea that the cross can deter vampires is based on what is otherwise an occult or hidden meaning of the symbol, the emotional response a Christian cross gives to a Christian or the emotional response of the Arabic writing of “Allah, no god but god” or “Bismillah” (in the name of God) has to a Muslim in emotional content made quantitative through myths.

Also sociology and psychology are not real sciences, it is much like magick or philosophy, psychology is just made up by people who sit around thinking about what it’s like to be a person, such as Freud or Jung and they have far out abstract theories, diagrams and psychological models (id, ego, super-ego for example) or Jung’s ideas that dreams must hold some deep and psychologically importance as opposed to being a more chaotic and meaningless process of the brain restructuring memories.

There are lot’s of cross-overs between psychology and the occult, they are both based largely on anecdotal theories.

 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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24 February 2019 09:29
 
dazpetty - 24 February 2019 12:39 AM

Psychology is just made up by people who sit around thinking about what it’s like to be a person, such as Freud or Jung and they have far out abstract theories, diagrams and psychological models (id, ego, super-ego for example) or Jung’s ideas that dreams must hold some deep and psychologically importance as opposed to being a more chaotic and meaningless process of the brain restructuring memories.

At one point, but now it’s all about behavior and conduct. They’re tangible so therefore to some extent quantifiable. Emotions and personalities aren’t, although probably much more caustic than behaviors repeating behaviors.

What do you think about this phrase: “you can’t study what you can’t see?”

 
 
burt
 
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burt
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24 February 2019 18:15
 
dazpetty - 24 February 2019 12:39 AM

@Nhoj Morley

Because the techniques and rituals haven’t changed, there’s only new understandings of how or why it might work. The philosophy is still the same.

The occult has always been a bizarre concoction of spiritualism, mysticism tempered with rationalism and the scientific method. I also think the term occult is relevant when discussing this, because we are after all talking about an occult understanding of religious protagonists, it is not immediately obvious to those practicing Christianity that they are psychologically willing themselves to emulate the mythical personality of Jesus, but that is what they are doing. Similarly when using symbols or sigils to attain some sort of change in a persons life, the conscious meaning and explanation of the sigil (symbol) is abandoned after it’s creation in favor of the subconscious adapting the meaning of the symbol to guide future thoughts and emotional energies. Thus there is the immediate meaning of Jesus or a symbol or a Godhead, and there is also the occult or hidden meaning.

You can use words to describe the beauty of a flower but the beauty itself just has to be experienced, the beauty can only be communicated through initiating a person by giving them an actual flower to look at and smell. To most of us the Christian cross is just a horizontal like and a vertical line together, but to a Christian it holds additional meaning, triggering their subconscious and producing emotional feelings and conscious thoughts when it is seen. The idea that the cross can deter vampires is based on what is otherwise an occult or hidden meaning of the symbol, the emotional response a Christian cross gives to a Christian or the emotional response of the Arabic writing of “Allah, no god but god” or “Bismillah” (in the name of God) has to a Muslim in emotional content made quantitative through myths.

Also sociology and psychology are not real sciences, it is much like magick or philosophy, psychology is just made up by people who sit around thinking about what it’s like to be a person, such as Freud or Jung and they have far out abstract theories, diagrams and psychological models (id, ego, super-ego for example) or Jung’s ideas that dreams must hold some deep and psychologically importance as opposed to being a more chaotic and meaningless process of the brain restructuring memories.

There are lot’s of cross-overs between psychology and the occult, they are both based largely on anecdotal theories.

You might consider the degree to which much of what is called “occult” today was part of ancient philosophy.

 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
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26 February 2019 02:48
 

Yours is a curious approach, one that gives the occult an operational meaning in our psychic economy.  It would seem assigning these psychological mechanisms a supernatural origin, just to darker forces, works the same way in the occult as in religion generally, where otherwise psychological or moral tendencies are ascribed to the supernatural. As a pragmatist scientifically interested in religion, fair enough I’d say.  If you’re interested, you might check out how chaps like Boyer, Norenzayan, Wade and Atran look at religion.  Not Harris, got forbid, but the bona fide curiosity-driven looks at religion and its meaning in human existence.  You might find some similarities to your approach here.

[ Edited: 26 February 2019 02:50 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
burt
 
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burt
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08 March 2019 21:03
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 26 February 2019 02:48 AM

Yours is a curious approach, one that gives the occult an operational meaning in our psychic economy.  It would seem assigning these psychological mechanisms a supernatural origin, just to darker forces, works the same way in the occult as in religion generally, where otherwise psychological or moral tendencies are ascribed to the supernatural. As a pragmatist scientifically interested in religion, fair enough I’d say.  If you’re interested, you might check out how chaps like Boyer, Norenzayan, Wade and Atran look at religion.  Not Harris, got forbid, but the bona fide curiosity-driven looks at religion and its meaning in human existence.  You might find some similarities to your approach here.

Something that I think is significant is that if you look at some of the books in ritual magic they contain, among many other things, “tables of correspondences” that are used in construction of invocations of various deities. One constructs a ritual drawing from these tables and, if successful, gains an experience of the desired power. Or, translating into a more modern language: if one wishes to experience a particular state of consciousness one way of doing this is to surround oneself with particular forms of sensory input, excite certain emotions, and direct ones thoughts in certain ways. Which basically goes under the heading of “set and setting.”

 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
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10 March 2019 15:04
 
burt - 08 March 2019 09:03 PM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 26 February 2019 02:48 AM

Yours is a curious approach, one that gives the occult an operational meaning in our psychic economy.  It would seem assigning these psychological mechanisms a supernatural origin, just to darker forces, works the same way in the occult as in religion generally, where otherwise psychological or moral tendencies are ascribed to the supernatural. As a pragmatist scientifically interested in religion, fair enough I’d say.  If you’re interested, you might check out how chaps like Boyer, Norenzayan, Wade and Atran look at religion.  Not Harris, got forbid, but the bona fide curiosity-driven looks at religion and its meaning in human existence.  You might find some similarities to your approach here.

Something that I think is significant is that if you look at some of the books in ritual magic they contain, among many other things, “tables of correspondences” that are used in construction of invocations of various deities. One constructs a ritual drawing from these tables and, if successful, gains an experience of the desired power. Or, translating into a more modern language: if one wishes to experience a particular state of consciousness one way of doing this is to surround oneself with particular forms of sensory input, excite certain emotions, and direct ones thoughts in certain ways. Which basically goes under the heading of “set and setting.”

 

Yeah, that sounds about right.  I think ritual magic has to be connected with real cognitive mechanisms and real human needs.  In this case, attempting to bring about an end by invocation, not direct action.  One can see how that might be tempting, even if one insists on its futility—except as a solace or consolation.

 
burt
 
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burt
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10 March 2019 16:58
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 10 March 2019 03:04 PM
burt - 08 March 2019 09:03 PM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 26 February 2019 02:48 AM

Yours is a curious approach, one that gives the occult an operational meaning in our psychic economy.  It would seem assigning these psychological mechanisms a supernatural origin, just to darker forces, works the same way in the occult as in religion generally, where otherwise psychological or moral tendencies are ascribed to the supernatural. As a pragmatist scientifically interested in religion, fair enough I’d say.  If you’re interested, you might check out how chaps like Boyer, Norenzayan, Wade and Atran look at religion.  Not Harris, got forbid, but the bona fide curiosity-driven looks at religion and its meaning in human existence.  You might find some similarities to your approach here.

Something that I think is significant is that if you look at some of the books in ritual magic they contain, among many other things, “tables of correspondences” that are used in construction of invocations of various deities. One constructs a ritual drawing from these tables and, if successful, gains an experience of the desired power. Or, translating into a more modern language: if one wishes to experience a particular state of consciousness one way of doing this is to surround oneself with particular forms of sensory input, excite certain emotions, and direct ones thoughts in certain ways. Which basically goes under the heading of “set and setting.”

 

Yeah, that sounds about right.  I think ritual magic has to be connected with real cognitive mechanisms and real human needs.  In this case, attempting to bring about an end by invocation, not direct action.  One can see how that might be tempting, even if one insists on its futility—except as a solace or consolation.

Not quite my point though. The way I wrote it, the goal of the invocation is to produce a state of consciousness, not an external end, although that state might provide insight for later use. But here’s another practical example. A young bachelor has invited a woman over to prepare dinner for her. He chooses the food going into the meal carefully, has certain music (likely not heavy metal) playing, arranges the lighting, guides his comments in conversation, and so on. Voila! So the scientific information to be gleaned is the correlation between states of cognitive awareness, or cognitive states in general and the sensory and other input that tends to produce such states. Used already by advertisers, opinion manipulators, propagandists, and so on.

 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
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15 March 2019 09:01
 
burt - 10 March 2019 04:58 PM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 10 March 2019 03:04 PM
burt - 08 March 2019 09:03 PM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 26 February 2019 02:48 AM

Yours is a curious approach, one that gives the occult an operational meaning in our psychic economy.  It would seem assigning these psychological mechanisms a supernatural origin, just to darker forces, works the same way in the occult as in religion generally, where otherwise psychological or moral tendencies are ascribed to the supernatural. As a pragmatist scientifically interested in religion, fair enough I’d say.  If you’re interested, you might check out how chaps like Boyer, Norenzayan, Wade and Atran look at religion.  Not Harris, got forbid, but the bona fide curiosity-driven looks at religion and its meaning in human existence.  You might find some similarities to your approach here.

Something that I think is significant is that if you look at some of the books in ritual magic they contain, among many other things, “tables of correspondences” that are used in construction of invocations of various deities. One constructs a ritual drawing from these tables and, if successful, gains an experience of the desired power. Or, translating into a more modern language: if one wishes to experience a particular state of consciousness one way of doing this is to surround oneself with particular forms of sensory input, excite certain emotions, and direct ones thoughts in certain ways. Which basically goes under the heading of “set and setting.”

 

Yeah, that sounds about right.  I think ritual magic has to be connected with real cognitive mechanisms and real human needs.  In this case, attempting to bring about an end by invocation, not direct action.  One can see how that might be tempting, even if one insists on its futility—except as a solace or consolation.

Not quite my point though. The way I wrote it, the goal of the invocation is to produce a state of consciousness, not an external end, although that state might provide insight for later use. But here’s another practical example. A young bachelor has invited a woman over to prepare dinner for her. He chooses the food going into the meal carefully, has certain music (likely not heavy metal) playing, arranges the lighting, guides his comments in conversation, and so on. Voila! So the scientific information to be gleaned is the correlation between states of cognitive awareness, or cognitive states in general and the sensory and other input that tends to produce such states. Used already by advertisers, opinion manipulators, propagandists, and so on.

But surely advertisers are trying, with their “invocations,” to bring about an end—consumers buying their product.  Or propagandists—conformity to the state.  Or even our young Romeo—he wants a successful connection, perhaps a second date.  Yes, science can study the correlation between the states of cognitive awareness and the inputs that bring about these states, but it would seem to me—based one my cursory understanding of ritual magic—that to these practitioners, these states are meant to bring about real change in the world.  In this respect, then, couldn’t science also study the relationship between these states and those real changes—at least in advertising and opinion manipulators, etc..  I would think they of all people would be interested in correlations between t inputs, their correlative states, and possible external ends—the whole circuit of the “ritual,” as it were. 

Unless I am still missing the gist of what you are driving at….

 

 
burt
 
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burt
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15 March 2019 09:44
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 15 March 2019 09:01 AM
burt - 10 March 2019 04:58 PM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 10 March 2019 03:04 PM
burt - 08 March 2019 09:03 PM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 26 February 2019 02:48 AM

Yours is a curious approach, one that gives the occult an operational meaning in our psychic economy.  It would seem assigning these psychological mechanisms a supernatural origin, just to darker forces, works the same way in the occult as in religion generally, where otherwise psychological or moral tendencies are ascribed to the supernatural. As a pragmatist scientifically interested in religion, fair enough I’d say.  If you’re interested, you might check out how chaps like Boyer, Norenzayan, Wade and Atran look at religion.  Not Harris, got forbid, but the bona fide curiosity-driven looks at religion and its meaning in human existence.  You might find some similarities to your approach here.

Something that I think is significant is that if you look at some of the books in ritual magic they contain, among many other things, “tables of correspondences” that are used in construction of invocations of various deities. One constructs a ritual drawing from these tables and, if successful, gains an experience of the desired power. Or, translating into a more modern language: if one wishes to experience a particular state of consciousness one way of doing this is to surround oneself with particular forms of sensory input, excite certain emotions, and direct ones thoughts in certain ways. Which basically goes under the heading of “set and setting.”

 

Yeah, that sounds about right.  I think ritual magic has to be connected with real cognitive mechanisms and real human needs.  In this case, attempting to bring about an end by invocation, not direct action.  One can see how that might be tempting, even if one insists on its futility—except as a solace or consolation.

Not quite my point though. The way I wrote it, the goal of the invocation is to produce a state of consciousness, not an external end, although that state might provide insight for later use. But here’s another practical example. A young bachelor has invited a woman over to prepare dinner for her. He chooses the food going into the meal carefully, has certain music (likely not heavy metal) playing, arranges the lighting, guides his comments in conversation, and so on. Voila! So the scientific information to be gleaned is the correlation between states of cognitive awareness, or cognitive states in general and the sensory and other input that tends to produce such states. Used already by advertisers, opinion manipulators, propagandists, and so on.

But surely advertisers are trying, with their “invocations,” to bring about an end—consumers buying their product.  Or propagandists—conformity to the state.  Or even our young Romeo—he wants a successful connection, perhaps a second date.  Yes, science can study the correlation between the states of cognitive awareness and the inputs that bring about these states, but it would seem to me—based one my cursory understanding of ritual magic—that to these practitioners, these states are meant to bring about real change in the world.  In this respect, then, couldn’t science also study the relationship between these states and those real changes—at least in advertising and opinion manipulators, etc..  I would think they of all people would be interested in correlations between t inputs, their correlative states, and possible external ends—the whole circuit of the “ritual,” as it were. 

Unless I am still missing the gist of what you are driving at….

Don’t think you’re missing anything. The difference is that advertisers and so on are using the techniques in an applied way to produce desired changes in the world without doing anything to produce changes in their own consciousness. The ritual magician uses them, first of all, to produce some sort of internal development. There may be a further aim though. E.g., (from conversations with a friend who is a practicing magician as well as a psych professor) a person who is going to be in a competition where they need to be assertive and aggressive may carry out a ritual to invoke Ares.