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Mosque shootings in New Zealand

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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15 March 2019 08:31
 

‘One of New Zealand’s darkest days’:  Mosque attacks kill 49
https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/one-of-new-zealand-s-darkest-days-mosque-attacks-kill-49-1.4337107


Yet another incident has happened where racist hatred has led to tragedy. 

Through the sadness and compassion such news brings, there is also the anger that must be properly directed.  Racism in all its forms is the enemy and must be fought by all possible means, tempered with the reason needed to unite, not divide.


[Edit (update):  The death toll has risen to 50 victims, in addition to the many wounded.]

[ Edited: 16 March 2019 21:30 by Jan_CAN]
 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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15 March 2019 08:54
 
Jan_CAN - 15 March 2019 08:31 AM

Racism in all its forms is the enemy and must be fought by all possible means, tempered with the reason needed to unite, not divide.

Is vs Ought.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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15 March 2019 09:47
 
GAD - 15 March 2019 08:54 AM
Jan_CAN - 15 March 2019 08:31 AM

Racism in all its forms is the enemy and must be fought by all possible means, tempered with the reason needed to unite, not divide.

Is vs Ought.

But we can’t just give up and accept the ‘is’ and must try for the ‘ought’.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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15 March 2019 10:13
 
Jan_CAN - 15 March 2019 09:47 AM
GAD - 15 March 2019 08:54 AM
Jan_CAN - 15 March 2019 08:31 AM

Racism in all its forms is the enemy and must be fought by all possible means, tempered with the reason needed to unite, not divide.

Is vs Ought.

But we can’t just give up and accept the ‘is’ and must try for the ‘ought’.

How do you stop someone from believing what they believe?

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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15 March 2019 10:49
 
GAD - 15 March 2019 10:13 AM
Jan_CAN - 15 March 2019 09:47 AM
GAD - 15 March 2019 08:54 AM
Jan_CAN - 15 March 2019 08:31 AM

Racism in all its forms is the enemy and must be fought by all possible means, tempered with the reason needed to unite, not divide.

Is vs Ought.

But we can’t just give up and accept the ‘is’ and must try for the ‘ought’.

How do you stop someone from believing what they believe?

Once a person has reached the point of promoting or committing violence, there probably isn’t any way to stop them from believing what they believe.  In some cases, psychiatric care might play a role.  In others, anyone close to them who has heard their plans should report them to police.  They should at the very least have no access to weapons.  They should not be provided with a public forum that permits the incitement of violence.

The public support and solidarity that happens after such tragic events should not be forgotten as time goes by until the next tragedy.  We must not allow ourselves to become used to violence.  We should speak out against racism in our personal lives, and society should stand united against any and all hate groups.  We must drown out their hate with love and tolerance in an effort to prevent indoctrination of future haters.  And we can vote for leaders who promote these views and get rid of those who don’t.

 

 
 
LadyJane
 
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15 March 2019 11:07
 

You can’t change beliefs only the ways we’re led toward them.  And emphasizing the importance of accepting the differences in order to keep the peace.  You don’t change a thing through violent acts like these.

 
 
icehorse
 
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15 March 2019 20:08
 

The article in the OP does some of the typical conflating that we have to expunge. We won’t be able to solve the problem if we’re not honest about the problem.

So being a white supremacist is distinct from hating Islam. And hating Islam is not racist. The perps were probably confused, but the press should not be.

 
 
Skipshot
 
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Skipshot
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15 March 2019 20:59
 

Maybe I should start the compliment to my “Fuck Islam” thread - “Fuck Right Wing Terrorists”

 
GAD
 
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15 March 2019 21:11
 
icehorse - 15 March 2019 08:08 PM

The article in the OP does some of the typical conflating that we have to expunge. We won’t be able to solve the problem if we’re not honest about the problem.

So being a white supremacist is distinct from hating Islam. And hating Islam is not racist. The perps were probably confused, but the press should not be.

A point I am interested in as well and raised with my coworker today on our walk. Muslims are not a damn race, they are believers in a vile and insidious ideology, which is no different that what can be said of the shooter. Of course if the shooter was Muslim and killed Christians or Jews it wouldn’t be called racism as the extremest left views only whites as racist, the irony being that that is racist.

 
 
icehorse
 
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15 March 2019 21:17
 
Skipshot - 15 March 2019 08:59 PM

Maybe I should start the compliment to my “Fuck Islam” thread - “Fuck Right Wing Terrorists”

OR simply: “Fuck Terrorists”

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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15 March 2019 22:46
 

Islamophobia (which has come to mean dislike of Muslims) is tied up with racism in addition to religious intolerance.  As with other such terrible acts, this one was committed by a self-proclaimed racist and white supremacist.

Forty-nine human beings were horribly massacred and yet there are those, who like Trump, will not name it or acknowledge why.  Which is part of the problem.

 
 
icehorse
 
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16 March 2019 08:26
 
Jan_CAN - 15 March 2019 10:46 PM

Islamophobia (which has come to mean dislike of Muslims) is tied up with racism in addition to religious intolerance.  As with other such terrible acts, this one was committed by a self-proclaimed racist and white supremacist.

Forty-nine human beings were horribly massacred and yet there are those, who like Trump, will not name it or acknowledge why.  Which is part of the problem.

Yes indeed, the media often “ties up” the made up term of Islamophobia with actual racism. We must strive to de-tangle these ideas if we want to solve them.

So first off, we should stop using the term “Islamophobia”, it is a fundamentally dishonest term, and helping to propagate it does not help, it hurts.
Next, we must disentangle Muslims from being a race. Again, such entanglement hurts the situation.

 
 
proximacentauri
 
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proximacentauri
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16 March 2019 09:50
 
icehorse - 16 March 2019 08:26 AM
Jan_CAN - 15 March 2019 10:46 PM

Islamophobia (which has come to mean dislike of Muslims) is tied up with racism in addition to religious intolerance.  As with other such terrible acts, this one was committed by a self-proclaimed racist and white supremacist.

Forty-nine human beings were horribly massacred and yet there are those, who like Trump, will not name it or acknowledge why.  Which is part of the problem.

Yes indeed, the media often “ties up” the made up term of Islamophobia with actual racism. We must strive to de-tangle these ideas if we want to solve them.

So first off, we should stop using the term “Islamophobia”, it is a fundamentally dishonest term, and helping to propagate it does not help, it hurts.
Next, we must disentangle Muslims from being a race. Again, such entanglement hurts the situation.

If I recall correctly, during the last election the areas of the US that polled highest for racist attitudes, also polled highest in favor of a complete ban of Muslim immigration. If that’s the case, this would seem to indicate a correlation of some sort between “Islamophobia” and racism for Americans.

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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16 March 2019 10:09
 
icehorse - 16 March 2019 08:26 AM
Jan_CAN - 15 March 2019 10:46 PM

Islamophobia (which has come to mean dislike of Muslims) is tied up with racism in addition to religious intolerance.  As with other such terrible acts, this one was committed by a self-proclaimed racist and white supremacist.

Forty-nine human beings were horribly massacred and yet there are those, who like Trump, will not name it or acknowledge why.  Which is part of the problem.

Yes indeed, the media often “ties up” the made up term of Islamophobia with actual racism. We must strive to de-tangle these ideas if we want to solve them.

So first off, we should stop using the term “Islamophobia”, it is a fundamentally dishonest term, and helping to propagate it does not help, it hurts.
Next, we must disentangle Muslims from being a race. Again, such entanglement hurts the situation.

Whether you or others like it or not, the term ‘Islamophobia’ is now the one being used to describe prejudice against Muslims and this is unlikely to change.  (The term ‘antisemitism’ could also be considered not optimum to denote prejudice against Jews, but is nonetheless the term in common use.)

The fact is that most Muslims are ‘non-white’ and many are relatively recent immigrants to the West.  Racism is an aspect of the prejudice shown towards them and to deny this is a mistake.  There is undeniably an increase in alt-right/white supremacist persecution of these people that should not be ignored or minimized.

When posting this thread, I assumed there would be a common sympathy for the victims of this tragedy.  That everyone here would be united by this sympathy and that comments might arise about how such horrible events could be prevented in the future.  It saddens me that, instead of identifying with the victims as our brothers and sisters, it should be used to make comments indicating an inability to do so.  (I have no desire at this time of sadness to debate your particular views on Islam.)

 

 
 
LadyJane
 
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16 March 2019 10:57
 

All words are made up words.  Pick a word.  Islamloathing.  In this case the word phobia is attached to the thing people are afraid of which, when you think about it, is rather charitable.  Coz it’s still run of the mill bigotry.

This particular news item is about a hateful terrorist attack, by an angry white guy, and not the tenets of Islam.  And we’re toiling over a term that doesn’t even appear anywhere in the article.  Ahem, just sayin.’ 

Let’s keep an eye on the ball.

 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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16 March 2019 10:58
 

It’s very odd, all these hateful, racist, murderous white guys with their guns and their death wishes. They seem to be multiplying.

Perhaps a virulent meme is spreading like a disease among certain white men. It started in the United States, but now it’s spreading to places like placid New Zealand.

I’m guessing the meme would go something like this:

White men are getting shafted; we used to be in charge but now are second class citizens. We’re being replaced and threatened — by minorities coming to take our jobs, our culture, our neighborhoods; by Muslims coming into our country to commit terrorist acts and kill us; by Jews who own everything and want to keep us out; by liberals who want to give everything away for free to legal and illegal immigrants; by women who are getting better educations and taking positions of power over us; by gays and transgender people who shouldn’t be seen in public and are immoral.
I feel bad, and I blame them.

It’s a victim mentality filled with venom, self-pity, blame, entitlement and blood lust.

 
 
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