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Mosque shootings in New Zealand

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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23 March 2019 13:57
 

Jan:

As I said, I’ve already answered your previous question; I believe it would be clear to anyone truly listening.  It just wasn’t worded in a manner that you wanted as you are looking for a way to question my logic and consistency.

I don’t think so. And BTW, it’s understandable that you’re having difficulty with the question - it truly is a stumper. Your answer is focused on how to help those who have gone astray - and in that context, it’s a fine answer.

But the question is: How did you conclude that the white supremacist world view is bad?

(I conclude that it’s bad because it flies in the face of so much of what I value. And I can name those values.) So how did you reach your conclusion that white supremacy is “bad”?

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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23 March 2019 14:54
 
icehorse - 23 March 2019 01:57 PM

Jan:

As I said, I’ve already answered your previous question; I believe it would be clear to anyone truly listening.  It just wasn’t worded in a manner that you wanted as you are looking for a way to question my logic and consistency.

I don’t think so. And BTW, it’s understandable that you’re having difficulty with the question - it truly is a stumper. Your answer is focused on how to help those who have gone astray - and in that context, it’s a fine answer.

But the question is: How did you conclude that the white supremacist world view is bad?

(I conclude that it’s bad because it flies in the face of so much of what I value. And I can name those values.) So how did you reach your conclusion that white supremacy is “bad”?

This latest exchange has arisen from my posting of an article about ‘othering’ (post #53), in which the most drastic example of this relates to the OP about the murder of 50 Muslims – men, women and children.

Do you really need me to tell you why I think the white supremacist world view is bad?  I don’t think so.  It is an obvious attempt to get me to say which values it conflicts with so that you can make an analogy to Islam in a manner that will only serve to ‘other’ Muslims.  It has already been pointed out to you that this thread is not appropriate for that discussion.

 

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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23 March 2019 15:11
 
Jan_CAN - 23 March 2019 02:54 PM
icehorse - 23 March 2019 01:57 PM

Jan:

As I said, I’ve already answered your previous question; I believe it would be clear to anyone truly listening.  It just wasn’t worded in a manner that you wanted as you are looking for a way to question my logic and consistency.

I don’t think so. And BTW, it’s understandable that you’re having difficulty with the question - it truly is a stumper. Your answer is focused on how to help those who have gone astray - and in that context, it’s a fine answer.

But the question is: How did you conclude that the white supremacist world view is bad?

(I conclude that it’s bad because it flies in the face of so much of what I value. And I can name those values.) So how did you reach your conclusion that white supremacy is “bad”?

This latest exchange has arisen from my posting of an article about ‘othering’ (post #53), in which the most drastic example of this relates to the OP about the murder of 50 Muslims – men, women and children.

Do you really need me to tell you why I think the white supremacist world view is bad?  I don’t think so.  It is an obvious attempt to get me to say which values it conflicts with so that you can make an analogy to Islam in a manner that will only serve to ‘other’ Muslims.  It has already been pointed out to you that this thread is not appropriate for that discussion.

No. It’s an attempt to get you to back up your claims. Nothing more.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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23 March 2019 15:16
 

White Supremacy is bad because its values contrast not only with my own, but with concepts of equality before the law and constitutions of (many) first world nations.  It encourages toxic discrimination which seems to result in shootings like the one in NZ.

It is also a world view that serms to be contrary to cooperative social civilization, and based on premises and assumptions that I consider to be terribly misguided.

All sympathy to the vics and their families.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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23 March 2019 16:37
 

Jefe:

White Supremacy is bad because its values contrast not only with my own, but with concepts of equality before the law and constitutions of (many) first world nations.  It encourages toxic discrimination

Agreed.

(And we should hold all ideologies to these same standards.)

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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23 March 2019 17:30
 
icehorse - 23 March 2019 04:37 PM

Jefe:

White Supremacy is bad because its values contrast not only with my own, but with concepts of equality before the law and constitutions of (many) first world nations.  It encourages toxic discrimination

Agreed.

(And we should hold all ideologies to these same standards.)

It should be noted that you cut off part of Jefe’s sentence which read:
“It encourages toxic discrimination which seems to result in shootings like the one in NZ.”

 

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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23 March 2019 17:34
 
Jan_CAN - 23 March 2019 05:30 PM
icehorse - 23 March 2019 04:37 PM

Jefe:

White Supremacy is bad because its values contrast not only with my own, but with concepts of equality before the law and constitutions of (many) first world nations.  It encourages toxic discrimination

Agreed.

(And we should hold all ideologies to these same standards.)

It should be noted that you cut off part of Jefe’s sentence which read:
“It encourages toxic discrimination which seems to result in shootings like the one in NZ.”

Other suspect ideologies are frequently guilty of similar such crimes.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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23 March 2019 17:42
 

There is a difference between value and worth.  And our values change.  Which means almost everyone is redeemable for any perceived transgressions.  Individuals develop a code of conduct and societies determine what rules we need to follow.  We decide what is worth.  New Zealand is exemplifying the extent to which this is possible.  Which is the aim of most people and the topic of this thread.  When we force someone to adhere to our personal philosophy it’s like waterboarding for fun.  We’re not really looking to extract information as much as impart fear when it is us who is drowning.  There are people barely keeping their heads above water while enduring a barrage of endless waves strategically placed to keep everybody down.  And it’s completely unnecessary.  Coz fuck that undertow.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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23 March 2019 17:48
 
icehorse - 23 March 2019 05:34 PM
Jan_CAN - 23 March 2019 05:30 PM
icehorse - 23 March 2019 04:37 PM

Jefe:

White Supremacy is bad because its values contrast not only with my own, but with concepts of equality before the law and constitutions of (many) first world nations.  It encourages toxic discrimination

Agreed.

(And we should hold all ideologies to these same standards.)

It should be noted that you cut off part of Jefe’s sentence which read:
“It encourages toxic discrimination which seems to result in shootings like the one in NZ.”

Other suspect ideologies are frequently guilty of similar such crimes.

Please take your ‘othering’ over to your own current thread - you’re not going to get the last word on this one.
(It’s too bad you couldn’t also have indicated agreement with Jefe’s sympathy for the victims and their families.)

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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23 March 2019 17:51
 
LadyJane - 23 March 2019 05:42 PM

There is a difference between value and worth.  And our values change.  Which means almost everyone is redeemable for any perceived transgressions.  Individuals develop a code of conduct and societies determine what rules we need to follow.  We decide what is worth.  New Zealand is exemplifying the extent to which this is possible.  Which is the aim of most people and the topic of this thread.  When we force someone to adhere to our personal philosophy it’s like waterboarding for fun.  We’re not really looking to extract information as much as impart fear when it is us who is drowning.  There are people barely keeping their heads above water while enduring a barrage of endless waves strategically placed to keep everybody down.  And it’s completely unnecessary.  Coz fuck that undertow.

Well said, and yes, fuck that undertow.

 
 
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