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A Hateful Thread

 
nonverbal
 
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19 April 2019 11:40
 
brazen4 - 18 April 2019 10:50 AM

What a great thread, and many thanks to all contributors. My own thinking and ability to self- assess is often enhanced by this forum. A question came to mind while reading this thread regarding the practice of shunning used by some religious grps and how that may be an attempt to “civilize” hating so that it doesn’t get violent. Our current situation (trump, with all his despicable tendencies, being president) looks like one in which we can’t shun him out of office, violence is out of the question, and there seems to be nothing left to do but watch this slow motion train wreck. Long distance plans for the continued improvement of conditions for all citizens has been put on hold and it’s damn frustrating. I’ve heard it said that “it is good to make plans, just don’t plan the outcome”. Easier said than done. Personally, when I begin to get existentially frustrated, my only short term solution is to do some work with my hands and around my house and property there is no shortage of projects that fit that bill. I reserve the word “hate” for true human monsters. Trump?, I just can’t stand him with all the wreckage he will leave in his wake.

I see habitual hating in today’s world as a sure sign of intellectual or emotional helplessness on the part of the haters—ignorance, to be blunt. I feel confident saying this because I used to be an intermittently hateful person, and I remember how ignorant I was at the time. In today’s world, hatred is a pathetically primitive reaction to people and ideas, but I can imagine long stretches of prehistoric time during which intractable hatred may have been a crucial survival asset for people.

Outsiders were not trusted in certain ways. I imagine that the ways of outsiders must have seemed downright evil whenever they differed in the slightest from the methods you’ve been brought up with. It must have been all but impossible for tribes and communities to prevent children and naive adults from interacting with outsiders if not for severe alienating ideations being encouraged (whether consciously or not) to take root in children. Tribal health, security and prosperity relied strongly on methodological traditions not well understood at the time. They didn’t know why their ways worked reliably; just that they did, sometimes anyway. Paranoiac superstitions must have run rampant, as well as any other ways they could come up with to uphold tight restrictions on cultural engagement with outsiders.

Just my guess!

 
 
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19 April 2019 12:59
 

I used to watch firing line with William F Buckley not because I liked him or his various positions on, well… anything. It was because I was young and knew that he could defend his position way better than I could defend mine and if we were face to face I’d get crushed so it was more an exercise in “know your enemy”. If I had been asked at the time I would have readily stated that I hated that guy. Looking back, what that did for me was to pay more attention to my own positions and not be as frivolous about making claims I hadn’t thought all the way through or researched enough. I never did start liking that guy but I stopped hating him. Nhoj, your thing with asparagus sounds like an attitude problem.

 
Nhoj Morley
 
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19 April 2019 21:33
 
brazen4 - 19 April 2019 12:59 PM

I used to watch firing line with William F Buckley not because I liked him or his various positions on, well… anything. It was because I was young and knew that he could defend his position way better than I could defend mine and if we were face to face I’d get crushed so it was more an exercise in “know your enemy”.

Bill is the poster child of self-narration and long-thinking. He tops The Malarkey Scale. We may watch the old firing line and wonder what is holding up his chair but never what is holding up his view.

If I had been asked at the time I would have readily stated that I hated that guy. Looking back, what that did for me was to pay more attention to my own positions and not be as frivolous about making claims I hadn’t thought all the way through or researched enough. I never did start liking that guy but I stopped hating him.

“more attention… all the way through” Exactly! Bill and others inspire us to step up the count. He also stands as an example
of the terrible price of being a constant, maximal self-narrator. He could be soulless and un-empathetic. Or seem that way if you didn’t keep up.

Nhoj, your thing with asparagus sounds like an attitude problem.

That’s what my parents said. For a while.
Wait a minute… I remember now. When I was eleven, my parents sent me on a plane to friends in Florida so dad could enjoy some darn asparagus in peace and quiet. Besides, my Attitude Problem Roster had no room for asparagus.

[ Edited: 20 April 2019 01:21 by Nhoj Morley]
 
 
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19 April 2019 22:36
 
nonverbal - 19 April 2019 11:40 AM

I see habitual hating in today’s world as a sure sign of intellectual or emotional helplessness on the part of the haters—ignorance, to be blunt. I feel confident saying this because I used to be an intermittently hateful person, and I remember how ignorant I was at the time. In today’s world, hatred is a pathetically primitive reaction to people and ideas, but I can imagine long stretches of prehistoric time during which intractable hatred may have been a crucial survival asset for people.

I agree about the helplessness but not the ignorance factor. You are a better narrator than you used to be. The info has been on the table all along. Change comes in your capacity to consume it.

 

 
 
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20 April 2019 01:11
 
LadyJane - 19 April 2019 09:14 AM

The problem is less about hating each other and more about hating the truth.  That’s the tug of war that cripples progress for everyone.  Whether deluded by the notion that quantity outweighs quality or appreciating the irony of having an aversion to asparagus while in a vegetative state.  It can be difficult to remain objective when there’s a steady stream of smoke blowing up yer arse and dangling carrots obstructing the view.  You have to consider the source.  And whether it’s a source you’re willing to trust.  You can’t succumb to pressure when you haven’t any peers.  And you can’t be a team player in a pool of solo swimmers.  Imagine this community in the absence of any gates.  At least unhinge it for the next guy even without the face to face.  I’ll continue fighting for the fringe from the fringe.  Gloriously unburdened by feelings of overwhelming hate.  It’s fascinating enough watching my posts inspire it for no apparent reason.  I guess Trioonity can blind you to as much as it reveals.

I am prepared to consider the possibility. It is disassociating. And possibly debilitating for a forum admin. I think the best thing I can do is bring in some contrasting staff.

An accusation of hating the truth suggests some capacity to know it is there like the body in my trunk after too many beers. It sounds more like concealing a murder. Trump hates the truth because he fears the consequences. But those lads hold to a different kind of truth. It is a truth that comes from being punched in the face really hard. It is in all the stories we grew up with. No matter what greater truths or lofty institutions were being defended, it always, sooner or later, came down to someone being punched in the face really hard. If one embarks, as trump has, on a mission to establish a truth, one must round up some big-armed lads with names like Hunter and Tanto who make yer face hurt just fer looking at them. That is one of their tiny truths like peace through strength. They speak power to truth. They say, the truth is pointlessly unknowable and a further reach than the stars. The truth is what so and so will do to you if you make him angry. You want to own the truth? Go punch someone in the face. Put the real truth (and your tax forms) in a bunker where no one will see it.

But that is how the Type A’s do it and I think we are talking about Type B’s who aspire to speak truth to power. It’s not like the boy who used wadded paper towels to maintain the height in the cookie jar. B’s do not bluff with information. We bluff with our perception. Mr. Flashlight would say he is grateful that the cosmos is exactly the same size as his pool of light. The truth will match the scale of its investigation. Investigations start with purpose. When the purpose is achieved, the investigation stops. On our end, it is a matter of resolution or pixelation achieved in the investigation. Emotions are not a necessary driver of the process.

Nor is it the order of things, time-wise. Mr. Hippo cannot see hate or racism. It has to be a cinematic perception first before it can trigger an emotional response.

I’ve sat here for a long time watching the crazy trains go by. Sometimes I laughed at having one of my own. Not so funny now. I’m open to derailment but who wants to figure out where I’m going first? Hate seemed like the next nail to hammer. Hate is clearly transactional. I could be blind to its transmission but certainly not to its reception.

 
 
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20 April 2019 11:46
 
Nhoj Morley - 20 April 2019 01:11 AM

I am prepared to consider the possibility. It is disassociating. And possibly debilitating for a forum admin. I think the best thing I can do is bring in some contrasting staff.

Even with all the pieces in working order it still means going twice as fast to get half as far.

An accusation of hating the truth suggests some capacity to know it is there like the body in my trunk after too many beers. It sounds more like concealing a murder. Trump hates the truth because he fears the consequences. But those lads hold to a different kind of truth. It is a truth that comes from being punched in the face really hard. It is in all the stories we grew up with. No matter what greater truths or lofty institutions were being defended, it always, sooner or later, came down to someone being punched in the face really hard. If one embarks, as trump has, on a mission to establish a truth, one must round up some big-armed lads with names like Hunter and Tanto who make yer face hurt just fer looking at them. That is one of their tiny truths like peace through strength. They speak power to truth. They say, the truth is pointlessly unknowable and a further reach than the stars. The truth is what so and so will do to you if you make him angry. You want to own the truth? Go punch someone in the face. Put the real truth (and your tax forms) in a bunker where no one will see it.

You can ignore the truth for as long as your mind co-operates and intoxicates but it’ll surface sooner or later and when it catches up with you it brings an army of illuminating facts that smack harder than any human hand.  The only people who hate the truth are the ones who fail to get away with their lies.  When you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. 

But that is how the Type A’s do it and I think we are talking about Type B’s who aspire to speak truth to power. It’s not like the boy who used wadded paper towels to maintain the height in the cookie jar. B’s do not bluff with information. We bluff with our perception. Mr. Flashlight would say he is grateful that the cosmos is exactly the same size as his pool of light. The truth will match the scale of its investigation. Investigations start with purpose. When the purpose is achieved, the investigation stops. On our end, it is a matter of resolution or pixelation achieved in the investigation. Emotions are not a necessary driver of the process.

Traditionally the Type A’s have always seized power through strength and by force.  Allowing them to decide what was true.  Any Type B’s saddled with the misfortune of living under such regimes have been forced into acceptance of the truths they are told.  When the spires of Notre Dame were rising to become the tallest building in Europe Saladin was rising through the ranks of the military positioned to oust the Crusaders.  This clash of Type A’s came with two separate versions of the truth.  With both justifying its claims to Jerusalem.  It is only recent history where we find a coalition of Type B’s keeping the Type A’s in check.  Whenever we encounter modern day clashings of Type B’s we often unleash our Type A’s into battle for the greater good.  With the goal of preserving the Type B.  Which means pushing one side or another back into a Type A.  This can inadvertently backfire sending our own Type B back into a Type A.  And that is the catch that all of human history has shown in this consistent wrestling match for control.  And what happens when we unhook the leash and allow things to get out of control.  Thrusting us backwards and destroying civilizations.  Annexing land doesn’t inspire the hate.  The idea of hating the rival you’re fighting is inspiration enough just to rally the troops. 

Nor is it the order of things, time-wise. Mr. Hippo cannot see hate or racism. It has to be a cinematic perception first before it can trigger an emotional response.

Maybe a baby hippo.  Adult hippos have more experience.  The reaction is triggered but has yet to be attached to an emotion.  Otherwise we’d all be running around like chickens with our heads cut off in fight or flight mode.  The greater the experience the more readily equipped to make appropriate associations to the things we encounter.  And recognizing that the references in our own arsenal may not match the ones of everyone we meet.  The chance of Mr. Hippo seeing hate or racism is merely a matter of time.  Feeling it is something else.  Although, it’s hard to imagine the most ferocious animal in Africa committing a hate crime. 

I’ve sat here for a long time watching the crazy trains go by. Sometimes I laughed at having one of my own. Not so funny now. I’m open to derailment but who wants to figure out where I’m going first? Hate seemed like the next nail to hammer. Hate is clearly transactional. I could be blind to its transmission but certainly not to its reception.

I’ve spent a lot of time watching everything floating by from my perch up on the bank.  Less and less inclined to venture into the river what with all the hateful transactions people float.  When I deem something worthless I give it no currency.  I just shake my head and laugh while wrangling my rolling eyes at all the patrons paying still.  I’d kinda like to see more bartering with newbies.  The disassociating is a breeze if everyone is playing by the same rules.  Otherwise it makes it impossible for an admin to man their post.  By turning a moving target into a stationary one.  Like a sitting duck.  Adrift fer shore.

 
 
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20 April 2019 17:01
 
Nhoj Morley - 19 April 2019 10:36 PM
nonverbal - 19 April 2019 11:40 AM

I see habitual hating in today’s world as a sure sign of intellectual or emotional helplessness on the part of the haters—ignorance, to be blunt. I feel confident saying this because I used to be an intermittently hateful person, and I remember how ignorant I was at the time. In today’s world, hatred is a pathetically primitive reaction to people and ideas, but I can imagine long stretches of prehistoric time during which intractable hatred may have been a crucial survival asset for people.

I agree about the helplessness but not the ignorance factor. You are a better narrator than you used to be. The info has been on the table all along. Change comes in your capacity to consume it.

But I stopped being a hate mess way back in the ‘90s. Actually, it took the whole decade and then some. Aside from that, the content of my assertions remains as questionable as ever, I’m afraid. Your writing has improved enormously over the decades, but I hope I’m not misinterpreting your above-quoted post. I love that this forum gets moderated by the two most poetic and metaphorical people I’ve probably ever known, plus Martin, of course.

 
 
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20 April 2019 19:10
 

I encountered a hate group today in Houston.  It was some kind of black religious group, dressed in African garb.  As I walked by they said “gringo go home”, which I thought was funny since my family has been in the USA for over 200 years.  They were speaking prophetically about oppression,but I kept walking to avoid confrontation.  I’ve encountered them before in Dallas.  I understand black hatred, but it won’t accomplish anything.  Hatred never does.

 
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20 April 2019 19:38
Nhoj Morley
 
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21 April 2019 01:27
 
EN - 20 April 2019 07:10 PM

I encountered a hate group today in Houston.  It was some kind of black religious group, dressed in African garb.  As I walked by they said “gringo go home”, which I thought was funny since my family has been in the USA for over 200 years.  They were speaking prophetically about oppression,but I kept walking to avoid confrontation.  I’ve encountered them before in Dallas.  I understand black hatred, but it won’t accomplish anything.  Hatred never does.


How did you know it was a hate group? Was their some insignia? Were they in the phone book under ‘hate’? Did they know they were a hate group? Would it have helped them to point it out, or would that have been the confrontation you wished to avoid?

“Gringo go home” is a strange and silly thing to say that is never heard around Detroit. I sounds like yet another clumsy slogan intended to capture some complex grievance by expressing the perceived injustice in emotional terms. And probably authored by uninformed yokels with no experience in publishing or public relations.

If there is any advice to find here, it is that hate groups should be avoided. I don’t mean on the sidewalk. Don’t be a part of anything that someone else can perceive as a hate group. Like this forum… can you imagine anyone anywhere calling this community a hate group?

On the one hand, this should set the bar for real and effective political discourse or addressing a grievance higher than such pitiful efforts. Sadly, anyone who crosses that bar finds only a wilderness as all the attention and the cameras are on the street level hoping to find some hot action. On the other hand, if all the institutions above the bar are discredited, then peaceful public discourse is neutralized.

Sooner or later, it will all come down to who can punch who in the face harder. It is the trumpian way. I point out, old friend, that the only hate in your story as you told it was yours, and it was not a feeling of your own, it was a perception of theirs.

 
 
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21 April 2019 01:45
 
nonverbal - 20 April 2019 05:01 PM


But I stopped being a hate mess way back in the ‘90s. Actually, it took the whole decade and then some. Aside from that, the content of my assertions remains as questionable as ever, I’m afraid. Your writing has improved enormously over the decades, but I hope I’m not misinterpreting your above-quoted post. I love that this forum gets moderated by the two most poetic and metaphorical people I’ve probably ever known, plus Martin, of course.

Don’t worry about the interpreting for now, you are still making my point. Is there another emotion that one can stop having? Be it by info or enlightenment, can we make all our emotions go away?

Hate is not an emotion. It is a perception that causes actual emotions to loop continuously (or frequently) without any primal stimuli.

Thanks. Clearly there are more decades to go. I’ll riff on ‘metaphorical people’ later.

 
 
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21 April 2019 06:14
 
Nhoj Morley - 21 April 2019 01:45 AM

. . .

Hate is not an emotion. It is a perception that causes actual emotions to loop continuously (or frequently) without any primal stimuli.

Hatred is not in itself an emotion, and it’s unfortunate that it commonly gets described as an emotion. Haters can stop hating if they choose to do so, but perhaps need first to stare down some of their emotions. Asking someone to put the brakes on a primary emotion, on the other hand, would seem less reasonable. Hating can be seen as a wasteful and wasting habit, akin to cigarette smoking, which can be stopped at will by most people, though not easily.

 
 
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21 April 2019 07:53
 
nonverbal - 21 April 2019 06:14 AM
Nhoj Morley - 21 April 2019 01:45 AM

. . .

Hate is not an emotion. It is a perception that causes actual emotions to loop continuously (or frequently) without any primal stimuli.

Hatred is not in itself an emotion, and it’s unfortunate that it commonly gets described as an emotion. Haters can stop hating if they choose to do so, but perhaps need first to stare down some of their emotions. Asking someone to put the brakes on a primary emotion, on the other hand, would seem less reasonable. Hating can be seen as a wasteful and wasting habit, akin to cigarette smoking, which can be stopped at will by most people, though not easily.

This thread confused me because I thought hate (and love) was an emotion; it certainly felt that way to me.  But some googling confirms what’s being said here; it’s fear and anger that are the emotions according to psychologists.  However, whatever we call such primal emotions, they must be controlled by reason and goodwill for our well-being and future survival.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/your-wise-brain/201312/cultivate-goodwill
”To tame the wolf of hate, it’s important to get a handle on “ill will” - irritated, resentful, and angry feelings and intentions toward others. While it may seem justified in the moment, ill will harms you probably more than it harms others. In another metaphor, having ill will toward others is like throwing hot coals with bare hands: both people get burned.”

Thanks for this thread; it is important to think about such things.

 

 
 
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21 April 2019 08:17
 
nonverbal - 21 April 2019 06:14 AM
Nhoj Morley - 21 April 2019 01:45 AM

. . .

Hate is not an emotion. It is a perception that causes actual emotions to loop continuously (or frequently) without any primal stimuli.

Hatred is not in itself an emotion, and it’s unfortunate that it commonly gets described as an emotion. Haters can stop hating if they choose to do so, but perhaps need first to stare down some of their emotions. Asking someone to put the brakes on a primary emotion, on the other hand, would seem less reasonable. Hating can be seen as a wasteful and wasting habit, akin to cigarette smoking, which can be stopped at will by most people, though not easily.

Hatred of ‘the other’ appears rampant, or could it be that with modern day ubiquitous media, it is just more visible than it used to be? Culturally, was there ever a time when we were a kinder and gentler and more tolerant people? Or have we always been as xenophobic and racist a country as we appear to be right now?

One fact seems clear. Deepening one’s hatred of ‘the other’ is so easy to do in the 21st century . If you’re looking for confirmation bias of your beliefs, it’s available everywhere - radio, TV, internet, and social media - and it’s available 24/7. The more one immerses oneself, the more intractable one’s beliefs become. “The soul becomes dyed by the color of its thoughts.”

 

 

 

 
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21 April 2019 09:19
 

The daily grind of ignoring everything irritating and frustrating about society is where I think hatred comes from. I think that If anger has the secondary benefit of providing some acute focus, hatred can defintely postpone feeling numb and complacent.

 
 
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