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A Hateful Thread

 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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21 April 2019 09:38
 
LadyJane - 20 April 2019 11:46 AM

Traditionally the Type A’s have always seized power through strength and by force.  Allowing them to decide what was true.  Any Type B’s saddled with the misfortune of living under such regimes have been forced into acceptance of the truths they are told.  When the spires of Notre Dame were rising to become the tallest building in Europe Saladin was rising through the ranks of the military positioned to oust the Crusaders.  This clash of Type A’s came with two separate versions of the truth.  With both justifying its claims to Jerusalem.  It is only recent history where we find a coalition of Type B’s keeping the Type A’s in check.  Whenever we encounter modern day clashings of Type B’s we often unleash our Type A’s into battle for the greater good.  With the goal of preserving the Type B.  Which means pushing one side or another back into a Type A.  This can inadvertently backfire sending our own Type B back into a Type A.  And that is the catch that all of human history has shown in this consistent wrestling match for control.  And what happens when we unhook the leash and allow things to get out of control.  Thrusting us backwards and destroying civilizations.  Annexing land doesn’t inspire the hate.  The idea of hating the rival you’re fighting is inspiration enough just to rally the troops.

I can agree with that. B’s use A’s for combat. As well, there is a critical quantity or percentage of B’s we do not want to fall below.

Maybe a baby hippo.  Adult hippos have more experience.  The reaction is triggered but has yet to be attached to an emotion.

Without a cinematic perception, it never will. You are morphing my metaphor here. Actual hippos that come in baby and adult form are bioon. Mr. Hippo is a nickname for us at the level of monoonity or, in our trioon structure, sub-cinematic perception.

Otherwise we’d all be running around like chickens with our heads cut off in fight or flight mode.

Yes. That aptly describes a monoon experience. With our cinematic perception chopped off.

The greater the experience the more readily equipped to make appropriate associations to the things we encounter.  And recognizing that the references in our own arsenal may not match the ones of everyone we meet.  The chance of Mr. Hippo seeing hate or racism is merely a matter of time.  Feeling it is something else.

It is a matter time. If Mr. Hippo cannot see something as a single perception in less than twenty milliseconds, it is effectively invisible. There is a long list of terrible things we can see in less than twenty milliseconds. It takes a structured cinematic perception to see something with continuity or a reason or motive. Then one can say they have recognized racism or such and then it can trigger emotions

Although, it’s hard to imagine the most ferocious animal in Africa committing a hate crime.

Right. Or a human deemed to lack a certain level of cognition. We say they act instinctively. That implies they lack the cognition to re-order their actions into something deemed ‘not instinctive’. We have such a cognition (narrative or post-cinematic perception) so we hold each other as accountable for all personal re-shepherding of our lives. It is the same cognition that can hold ourselves accountable to ourselves. The extent to which we can do that for ourselves is presumed upon others. This is yet another matter where the count of the accounting can yield differing results.

 

 
 
bbearren
 
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21 April 2019 10:17
 

Interesting.

Nhoj, we know each other on an ever-so-slightly deeper level, into which I will not here delve.  Having said that, being somewhat surprised by the OP, I cannot say that I was surprised in the content of it.

Hate is not a currency with which I now have or have had any dealings.  I grew up during segregation, and I could never make any sense of it on a personal level; never understood the dichotomy of it at all.

Perhaps “seethe with hate” is a misnomer.  Maybe “knotted up in bridled conflictions” would be a better fit.  But I don’t think it advisable to tackle the world at large to attempt resolution; start with the simple, then proceed to the complex.

Lay your snapped-in-half sword on the dinner table as a place to begin.  If you can’t find comity there, it’s unlikely to be found out in the wide world, either.

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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21 April 2019 11:42
 
Jan_CAN - 21 April 2019 07:53 AM

This thread confused me because I thought hate (and love) was an emotion; it certainly felt that way to me.  But some googling confirms what’s being said here; it’s fear and anger that are the emotions according to psychologists.  However, whatever we call such primal emotions, they must be controlled by reason and goodwill for our well-being and future survival.

Yup, but I think we need to take further heed. Fear and anger have been controlled by reason badly, and that is how we got here. We accuse fear and anger of influence they are not capable of influing. Short-sighted reasoning creates the patterns and structures of our perceptions that we emotionally react to. Hate is an artifact.

One indication of this is how a person can qualify their own hate. It might be an objection or a grudge with no claim to an inescapable primal feeling. Hate becomes a vernacular like hating asparagus. Imagine a world where everyone, even the natzies, reduce their hate to a vernacularity by internally declaring their position as entirely reasonable and based solely on facts. Hate as an emotional experience is optional but not necessary to that kind of hating. “I’ve decided that this or that is worthy of hate, but I’m not going let it evoke a feeling in me today as I have things to do.”

In the case of other people’s hatreds, they are not reasoned at all and they suffer their dark feeling while mowing the lawn or enjoying asparagus. Their emotions are a firewall against contrary facts. I can grant that it sure looks like it. Why would anyone see another point of view as reasoned if they believe that reason gave them theirs?

Aside from quashing debate, it ascribes capabilities to emotions that they, as sole possessions of Mr. Hippo, cannot have. The real firewall is the count.

As nv points out, one can end the practice without being a trioonist. For me, it meant admitting I was blaming folks for something they were not doing and that is operationally impossible. Something is going on that has fear and anger dancing to its tune. The more populist the politics gets, the more rhythmic it becomes. Individuals are the same with their views. Less reason (as in self-shepherded thinking), means more reliance on rhythm and vice versa.

When listening to folks explain their views, we can examine the explaining itself. The first step of categorization should be, ‘Which name best describes the sound of the explanation- Bill Buckley or Judy Garland?’ And then further discriminate from there. A drum machine set to 96 bpm or so will fit under trump speeches (or fox news) like a flowing river of moonshine.

Buckley demanded that he be taken strictly legato in the stilted steps of his own constant self-shepherding, which for some viewers, was like holding up a heavy bucket of sand too long by the end of show.

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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21 April 2019 11:46
 
bbearren - 21 April 2019 10:17 AM

Interesting.

I read you. Happily, this thread was influenced and preceded by, the dinner table.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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21 April 2019 12:58
 
Nhoj Morley - 21 April 2019 11:42 AM
Jan_CAN - 21 April 2019 07:53 AM

This thread confused me because I thought hate (and love) was an emotion; it certainly felt that way to me.  But some googling confirms what’s being said here; it’s fear and anger that are the emotions according to psychologists.  However, whatever we call such primal emotions, they must be controlled by reason and goodwill for our well-being and future survival.

Yup, but I think we need to take further heed. Fear and anger have been controlled by reason badly, and that is how we got here. We accuse fear and anger of influence they are not capable of influing. Short-sighted reasoning creates the patterns and structures of our perceptions that we emotionally react to. Hate is an artifact.

One indication of this is how a person can qualify their own hate. It might be an objection or a grudge with no claim to an inescapable primal feeling. Hate becomes a vernacular like hating asparagus. Imagine a world where everyone, even the natzies, reduce their hate to a vernacularity by internally declaring their position as entirely reasonable and based solely on facts. Hate as an emotional experience is optional but not necessary to that kind of hating. “I’ve decided that this or that is worthy of hate, but I’m not going let it evoke a feeling in me today as I have things to do.”
...

I can’t pretend to completely understand all that you’re saying, Nhoj, although it seems my gut understands (like with poetry) some of what is elusive to my head.

I agree that it cannot be reason alone that guides us as all kinds of horrible things can and have been done using cold-hearted and distorted logic.  It must be the calm of reason AND goodwill, conscience, kindness, or whatever we choose to call it.

You said that “Hate as an emotional experience is optional but not necessary to that kind of hating”.  The opposite should also be true.  We could show love (as best we can) to each other even when it is not felt, which can lead to the real thing (or something akin to it) when this very act can serve to remove barriers and bring out the best in each other.

 

 
 
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21 April 2019 13:36
 
Nhoj Morley - 19 April 2019 10:36 PM
nonverbal - 19 April 2019 11:40 AM

I see habitual hating in today’s world as a sure sign of intellectual or emotional helplessness on the part of the haters—ignorance, to be blunt. I feel confident saying this because I used to be an intermittently hateful person, and I remember how ignorant I was at the time. In today’s world, hatred is a pathetically primitive reaction to people and ideas, but I can imagine long stretches of prehistoric time during which intractable hatred may have been a crucial survival asset for people.

I agree about the helplessness but not the ignorance factor. You are a better narrator than you used to be. The info has been on the table all along. Change comes in your capacity to consume it.

“Change comes in your capacity to consume it.”

Well said. Hate of ‘the other’ can be indoctrinated from youth through familial or societal influence. And for many, their capacity to consume change will never increase. They will end up dying with their hatreds.

 
EN
 
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21 April 2019 13:50
 
Nhoj Morley - 21 April 2019 01:27 AM
EN - 20 April 2019 07:10 PM

I encountered a hate group today in Houston.  It was some kind of black religious group, dressed in African garb.  As I walked by they said “gringo go home”, which I thought was funny since my family has been in the USA for over 200 years.  They were speaking prophetically about oppression,but I kept walking to avoid confrontation.  I’ve encountered them before in Dallas.  I understand black hatred, but it won’t accomplish anything.  Hatred never does.


How did you know it was a hate group? Was their some insignia? Were they in the phone book under ‘hate’? Did they know they were a hate group? Would it have helped them to point it out, or would that have been the confrontation you wished to avoid?

“Gringo go home” is a strange and silly thing to say that is never heard around Detroit. I sounds like yet another clumsy slogan intended to capture some complex grievance by expressing the perceived injustice in emotional terms. And probably authored by uninformed yokels with no experience in publishing or public relations.

If there is any advice to find here, it is that hate groups should be avoided. I don’t mean on the sidewalk. Don’t be a part of anything that someone else can perceive as a hate group. Like this forum… can you imagine anyone anywhere calling this community a hate group?

On the one hand, this should set the bar for real and effective political discourse or addressing a grievance higher than such pitiful efforts. Sadly, anyone who crosses that bar finds only a wilderness as all the attention and the cameras are on the street level hoping to find some hot action. On the other hand, if all the institutions above the bar are discredited, then peaceful public discourse is neutralized.

Sooner or later, it will all come down to who can punch who in the face harder. It is the trumpian way. I point out, old friend, that the only hate in your story as you told it was yours, and it was not a feeling of your own, it was a perception of theirs.

You are right - that was my perception.  There were no neon lights saying “hate group”.  But it permeated the atmosphere.  Their tone of voice, their looks, their body language all said hate.  I did not want to attempt a dialogue, and for no sense that they did, either.  Maybe it was a misperception on my part, but I don’t think so.

 
unsmoked
 
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22 April 2019 13:33
 

What if we changed the subject from hate to jubilation?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=885yrixipVQ&bpctr=1555963514

What would a crowd of 63 million supporters look like?  Will he rent the Michigan Stadium for his 2020 rallies?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Stadium

 
 
LadyJane
 
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22 April 2019 17:28
 

Wouldn’t it be fair to say that our post cinematic (narrative) perception is the very thing which allows us to override the instinctual responses felt by Mr. Hippo?  The thing that we’ve developed in order to mitigate our inclination to act on the knee jerk reactions of our bioone forebearers?

Despite the twenty milliseconds delay we’ve become accustomed to these things working in concert.  Without sounding the alarm that wakes the hippo there’d be no feelings for the thoughts.  And without allowing time to travel there’d be no further thoughts to shepherd.  Something along those lines.

When our system floods with adrenaline screaming for us to run we ground ourselves in reason and determine the level of threat.  We are primed to react this way and yet equipped with the ability to subvert the order.  It triggers the response and we have the wherewithal (mostly) to assess the perceived danger.

Humans can be witnessed sustaining narratives to varying degrees.  Mainly their own.  It’s yielding to the narratives of others that needs a bit of shine.  You can observe with some precision the very point at which a patron has veered from what they were reading and commandeered the story.

Are we deliberating with the time available or saying the first thing that pops into our heads?  When we harness Mr. Hippo and manage our initial responses we are poised to calmly accept what comes next.  It works well enough to keep us from driving into ditches.  Surely it can keep us on the tracks we find in here.

We all have the capacity to elongate the steps in our reasoning.  Even if that means altering the stride.  Two steps at a time won’t guarantee the flight if it’s the same two over and over in any given case.  It’s what is standing in the way with one hand on derail and adding to the fray with just one more empty pail.

And I just hate that.

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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23 April 2019 00:58
 
EN - 21 April 2019 01:50 PM

There were no neon lights saying “hate group”.  But it permeated the atmosphere.  Their tone of voice, their looks, their body language all said hate.  I did not want to attempt a dialogue, and for no sense that they did, either.  Maybe it was a misperception on my part, but I don’t think so.

I hammer on because your word choices are handy.

The lads on the sidewalk may have noticed you steering clear or avoiding a comment. To them, your tone or body language may have said ‘hate’. As you say, it ‘permeates the atmosphere’. They don’t have to know. Like you, they just have to ‘think so’. Can we take these words literally?

I don’t want to call it a miss-perception but rather a perception of a particular type that has been, for all of our history, a normal thing for humans to do. In trump’s america, we can all keep doing the normal thing.

They do it to each other and it’s fine because it is an established part of social management for the society they aspire to. One where citizens find somewhere they can fit in and be looked out for, and believe whatever is necessary to hang on to or advance their place. In a fog of mistrust, no one will believe they can know enough about anything to be more than ‘pretty sure’. The one un-doubtable fact for everyone must be that cooperation will be rewarded. A folksy, grassroots systems of preferences, loyalty and bribes will emerge that needs no federal oversight or regulation. The regime need only be the scariest in town and the whole thing practically runs itself. Type A societies are cheap, low maintenance and time-tested.

Citizens can fulfill their roles without constant demands for calm reasoning or ‘carving out their own individual path’. The life it offers for your brain is comfortably cheap, low-maintenance and time-tested. Education supplies what one needs to know without any training in learning. Rising to the top requires more stomach than brains.

Safe and well-fed generations will become relaxed and curious about the world. Trades will develop and the need to reason will pop up everywhere. Folks will, through practice, develop their reasoning skills as more of life demands autonomous reasoning just to look out for yourself. Overall public reasoning ability, in the form of post-cinematic self-shepherding narrative ability, rises up The Malarkey Scale. More and more citizens find themselves to be more reasonable than the reasoning their society is based on. They often organize and try to transform society into one where reason trumps loyalty and power is held by institutions.

The lads in Philadelphia were a good example. They designed a system for a society of trained humans that can maintain that high/long reasoning level and pass it on to the following generations. Type B societies are a culture plus a requirement for reasoning slightly beyond the feral and untrained average. If that slips away, then issues will never reach our institutions because things will be decided mob-style before they can get there. Hate will disable their voices and open the way for anyone who can offer the cheap, low-maintenance and time-tested alternative.

We do this to each other and we get nowhere. It is not a dysfunction. It is an old habit. It is a Type A habit that will choke a Type B society.

Let’s say there is an issue that requires knowing nine facts to resolve. Each of five participants spot three facts and stop. They can either share their reasoning, which may including things not considered, or they can hate each other. It’s A or B.

 
 
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23 April 2019 02:50
 
LadyJane - 22 April 2019 05:28 PM

Wouldn’t it be fair to say that our post cinematic (narrative) perception is the very thing which allows us to override the instinctual responses felt by Mr. Hippo?  The thing that we’ve developed in order to mitigate our inclination to act on the knee jerk reactions of our bioone forebearers?

Great question. Yes, but…

First, our bioon forbearers could actually mitigate hippo with cinematic perception in a limited fashion that sticks to the order of things. Narrative perception mitigates Mr. Hippo via cinematic perception while allowing for changes in the order of things.

Unfortunately, the emergence of narrative ability first allows other people to mitigate our inclination to act on the knee jerk reactions of our bioon forbearers. Cognizant self-possession of the facility is a further achievement. It gives us Type A societies before it can give Type B’s. In its weakest form, it is only a tool of outside manipulation, which is still an advancement because one can follow what they are taught and pass it on. We have auto-narrators before and despite achieving self-possession. They are the jerky knees.

Despite the twenty milliseconds delay we’ve become accustomed to these things working in concert.  Without sounding the alarm that wakes the hippo there’d be no feelings for the thoughts.  And without allowing time to travel there’d be no further thoughts to shepherd.  Something along those lines.

Those thoughts do not necessarily start with feelings. Mr. Hippo will react directly to single and plain perceptions like fire or a projectile or a predator. Cinematic perception allows the bioon to consider multiple items in view, none of which is triggering Hippo by itself, and conclude there is a threat (or reward) and draw upon its memory. If that memory is a single and plain perception, Hippo will react to it.

In some cases, like racism, it takes a whole story to see the threat. It must be sufficiently told at some point. The triggering is little more complicated but still well within a single second. They usually re-start with auto-narrators. That can be a mere flash of the imploring face of the one who told the story. Cinematic perception is then manipulated to see certain elements of the perception outside of the order in which they actually appear. I don’t mean how a sequence of events is ordered, rather how the steps of reasoning are ordered. The next cinematic conclusion will be what Hippo reacts to. That can result in a brilliant insight or an intangible prejudice.

When our system floods with adrenaline screaming for us to run we ground ourselves in reason and determine the level of threat.  We are primed to react this way and yet equipped with the ability to subvert the order.  It triggers the response and we have the wherewithal (mostly) to assess the perceived danger.

It would take a strong narrative ability to keep a bridge up while Hippo is freaking out. Standard procedure is to disable it because the threat may call for a shorter response time than it takes to narrate. If Hippo is afraid he has less than twenty milliseconds to live, there will be no cinematic perception either, leaving us very much ‘in the moment’.

Humans can be witnessed sustaining narratives to varying degrees.  Mainly their own.  It’s yielding to the narratives of others that needs a bit of shine.  You can observe with some precision the very point at which a patron has veered from what they were reading and commandeered the story.

Technically, we mostly sustain narratives from outside and many of us (non-forum-patrons, typically) have none of our own. Maintaining a bridge with an external real-time narrator on it is a further skill. Starting one is easy, it gets harder with time of reading or listening though exhaustion is not the sole reason to stop. The followed flow of ideas can trigger auto-narrators who say “Humbug! I will be disappointed with you if you listen to any more of this filth!” or just a flash of a disapproving face. In most cases, one cannot know their patience has run out. That would require more patience to know. In some cases, one is relieved to spot something they don’t immediate like because it means they stop following it and relax.

Are we deliberating with the time available or saying the first thing that pops into our heads?  When we harness Mr. Hippo and manage our initial responses we are poised to calmly accept what comes next.  It works well enough to keep us from driving into ditches.  Surely it can keep us on the tracks we find in here.

Exactly! But it is not as easy as that. Many aspects of lives demand rationing our attention. Many educated capable narrators build lives where they are ‘so busy’ they never have to face the scary truth that they are rubbish at it and have no real capacity to listen to anyone. They can hide out in their busy-ness.

We all have the capacity to elongate the steps in our reasoning.  Even if that means altering the stride.  Two steps at a time won’t guarantee the flight if it’s the same two over and over in any given case.  It’s what is standing in the way with one hand on derail and adding to the fray with just one more empty pail.
And I just hate that.

Hmmm. I cannot endorse those as official trioon metaphors. The steps are chunk-limited to four. The thing is to elongate the continuity of our reasoning. You get the rest.

I cannot endorse those extra Canadian E’s. To Americans, it looks like bio-1.

 

 
 
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23 April 2019 05:43
 

Nhoj,  was just walking down the street.  I saw a group out of the corner of my eye, and the next thing I heard was “gringo go home.” That struck me, since they were black, not Hispanic.  I doubt they saw hate in me - maybe wariness.  I just kept walking, and heard the leader saying something about “we were doing just fine without you.”  So, I don’t think I was the one prejudging here, but who knows.  I realize our perceptions are all subjective.  I’m giving you my assessment of a 10 second encounter.

[ Edited: 23 April 2019 08:32 by EN]
 
Jan_CAN
 
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23 April 2019 07:49
 
Nhoj Morley - 23 April 2019 02:50 AM

I cannot endorse those extra Canadian E’s. To Americans, it looks like bio-1.

Extra ‘E”?  Now that extra ‘A’ might be considered a superfluous remnant of the past, an anaesthesia best left to others.  But what about our southern neighbours’ discarding of the lovely ‘U’ used by the rest of the English-speaking world?  What sentiments do they harbour that brought about its omission?  A revolutionary spirit, a desire to be different and apart?  ;-)

 

 
 
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23 April 2019 09:41
 
Jan_CAN - 23 April 2019 07:49 AM
Nhoj Morley - 23 April 2019 02:50 AM

I cannot endorse those extra Canadian E’s. To Americans, it looks like bio-1.

Extra ‘E”?  Now that extra ‘A’ might be considered a superfluous remnant of the past, an anaesthesia best left to others.  But what about our southern neighbours’ discarding of the lovely ‘U’ used by the rest of the English-speaking world?  What sentiments do they harbour that brought about its omission?  A revolutionary spirit, a desire to be different and apart?  wink

 

Coming from across the pond at a tender age, it took me forever to learn to say ‘budder’ instead of butter, all the while being mocked for a sound that was neither here nor there.

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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23 April 2019 13:56
 
EN - 23 April 2019 05:43 AM

Nhoj,  was just walking down the street.  I saw a group out of the corner of my eye, and the next thing I heard was “gringo go home.” That struck me, since they were black, not Hispanic.  I doubt they saw hate in me - maybe wariness.  I just kept walking, and heard the leader saying something about “we were doing just fine without you.”  So, I don’t think I was the one prejudging here, but who knows.  I realize our perceptions are all subjective.  I’m giving you my assessment of a 10 second encounter.

Yes, I know. I’m just riffing on your story, not theorizing about your character. It is a normal thing.

For example, the fully restored Burton/Taylor Cleopatra runs longer than the queen’s actual reign.

 
 
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