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A Hateful Thread

 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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02 May 2019 15:33
 

I was considering strictly resorting to paraprosdokians from here on in until I realized how much work it would mean for everyone.

 
 
proximacentauri
 
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proximacentauri
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03 May 2019 08:15
 
Jan_CAN - 29 April 2019 02:03 PM

The politicians and generals may be level-headed, but a certain amount of hate, or at least a disdain for the enemy, might be necessary for the soldier.  We don’t say that they are full of hate because we want to gloss over what war is, to make heroes, to deny inhumanities. 

Derogatory terms for the enemy are meant to make them less human so that they can be killed, by soldiers who have a conscience and therefore could not do what they were sent to do otherwise.  Does there not have to be hate to see your enemy as less deserving of living than you are?  Or perhaps it’s just apathy for the ‘other’ – hard to tell.

The “considered violence” of the order-givers is a terrible thing to consider, but the propaganda of fear and hate – ‘your country is in danger from a horrible enemy’ – plays a role in getting soldiers to enlist and serve during times of conflict.

... and without him all this killing can’t go on.

I worked for the DoD for 15 years, which included working alongside and getting to know both active duty and retired military. In my experience “hate of the other”, especially Muslims, is integral to the worldview of the majority of the military,  but the expression of hate is more typical of the enlisted, and less so with the more highly educated Officers.

As I believe you’re aware, ‘hate of ‘the other’ in the US is a cultural trend. This in turn influences our military whose attitudes often reflect societal attitudes. Moreover, as a country, we are now all about the glorification of our military, which is a complete 180 swing from our cultural attitude toward our military post Viet Nam. IMO, glorification of the military is one indicator of our trend toward militarism.

The political power of our industrial military complex drives both Republican and Democratic decision making. Yes, we have the greatest military in the world but we’re also $22Trillion in debt. Perhaps the Canadian politicians and generals are level headed. That’s not how I would characterize ours.

 

 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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03 May 2019 13:04
 
proximacentauri - 03 May 2019 08:15 AM
Jan_CAN - 29 April 2019 02:03 PM

The politicians and generals may be level-headed, but a certain amount of hate, or at least a disdain for the enemy, might be necessary for the soldier.  We don’t say that they are full of hate because we want to gloss over what war is, to make heroes, to deny inhumanities. 

Derogatory terms for the enemy are meant to make them less human so that they can be killed, by soldiers who have a conscience and therefore could not do what they were sent to do otherwise.  Does there not have to be hate to see your enemy as less deserving of living than you are?  Or perhaps it’s just apathy for the ‘other’ – hard to tell.

The “considered violence” of the order-givers is a terrible thing to consider, but the propaganda of fear and hate – ‘your country is in danger from a horrible enemy’ – plays a role in getting soldiers to enlist and serve during times of conflict.

... and without him all this killing can’t go on.

I worked for the DoD for 15 years, which included working alongside and getting to know both active duty and retired military. In my experience “hate of the other”, especially Muslims, is integral to the worldview of the majority of the military,  but the expression of hate is more typical of the enlisted, and less so with the more highly educated Officers.

As I believe you’re aware, ‘hate of ‘the other’ in the US is a cultural trend. This in turn influences our military whose attitudes often reflect societal attitudes. Moreover, as a country, we are now all about the glorification of our military, which is a complete 180 swing from our cultural attitude toward our military post Viet Nam. IMO, glorification of the military is one indicator of our trend toward militarism.

The political power of our industrial military complex drives both Republican and Democratic decision making. Yes, we have the greatest military in the world but we’re also $22Trillion in debt. Perhaps the Canadian politicians and generals are level headed. That’s not how I would characterize ours.

I wonder how much ‘hate’ is involved in the emotions of a drone operator in Nebraska as he presses a button to destroy a farmhouse in Helmund Province, Afghanistan.  I’ve heard that when the missiles strike, survivors who rush out of the rubble in their white robes are called ‘popcorn’.  Did the pilot of the Enola Gay feal hatred as he pressed the button over Hiroshima?

This morning, on the Brother Mario thread I responded to his crowing about the beneficent influence of Jesus and Christianity on modern humans (post #2111).  (Mario blocks my posts so he doesn’t have to read such things).

Unsmoked responds to a Brother Mario post - May 3, 2019 -

Speaking of ‘becoming an advanced civilization’ and speaking of North Korea, median estimates say that 2,730,000 civilians were killed during the Korean War.  Many of these, villagers and farmers, were burned alive with napalm.  Suppose we pick a lowball estimate and say that the U.S. killed about one hundred thousand (100,000) Korean children, burning them alive with napalm, between 1950 and 1953.  Is this what you mean when you say that Christianity has made us much more civilized?  Do you think Catholic chaplains were over there to bless Catholic pilots before they climbed into their bombers loaded with napalm?  By 1953 U.S. pilots were complaining that there was nothing left to bomb - not even villages, farmhouses, schools or hospitals.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_North_Korea_1950-1953

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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04 May 2019 17:29
 

This thread suggests a rather interesting corollary with the Brother Mario thread, as well as hinting at a (not) paradoxical foundation for the continuing presence of The Brother Mario in the Forum.

When one wishes to stop running in circles, simply nail the other shoe to the floor as well.  Can’t remember where or when I first heard that.

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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05 May 2019 04:47
 

If you could unpack this interesting corollary and hinted paradoxical foundation, we might know what you mean.

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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05 May 2019 05:49
 

go/run around in circles
to keep doing or talking about the same thing without achieving anything.

 
 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
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05 May 2019 06:59
 
bbearren - 05 May 2019 05:49 AM

go/run around in circles
to keep doing or talking about the same thing without achieving anything.

Had the concept of hate been dissected in this forum prior to this thread? I must have been sick that day.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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05 May 2019 09:40
 

Inside the bubble you won’t hear a sound
And looking for trouble will bring it around
Immersed under water when looking for land
Reduces to fodder you can’t understand
That’s not to say there’s not something to know
But there’s no other way if you don’t want to go
Movements are slow with our thoughts running fast
And can’t follow the crow if we’re tied to the mast
The course can be steady inviting the doubt
But you better be ready when it all comes about
Adrift on the ocean you’ll never be free
When you crush every notion you refuse to see
The gust and the glory of diverting the tale
Means taking the story’s wind out of its sail
Please take all the rancour that’s leaving you sore
And not act as the anchor that keeps us from shore
Like wannabe leaders who’ve squandered their charge
That become bottom feeders that belong on a barge
They will spoil the fun without walking the plank
I say let their mouths run so we’ll know who to thank
Fighting the quips only strays from the tack
Righting the ships means there’s no looking back
Sketching a mark of the things we pursue
Leads out of the dark where the doldrums find you.

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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05 May 2019 19:30
 
bbearren - 05 May 2019 05:49 AM

go/run around in circles
to keep doing or talking about the same thing without achieving anything.

Strange. That was the one part I wasn’t asking about. No paragraphs here today. Just tiny sentences. Now, let us drill down with some free verse. Bongos please, lads.


We overestimate our cognition.

We mistake our bandwidth for the whole spectrum.

There is a world of wonders just beyond our patience.

We apologize for any inconvenience.

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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05 May 2019 21:21
 
Nhoj Morley - 05 May 2019 07:30 PM
bbearren - 05 May 2019 05:49 AM

go/run around in circles
to keep doing or talking about the same thing without achieving anything.

Strange. That was the one part I wasn’t asking about.

Then the other part should be quite clear.  Is this not a critical mass of critical thinkers, or have I been somehow misled to expect such?

We overestimate our cognition.

Who is “We”?  My cognition is a handful of stardust adrift in the universe.

We mistake our bandwidth for the whole spectrum.

Who is “We”?  My bandwidth is contained within the nerve system in my body; can’t make any outside connections, just occasional conversation.

There is a world of wonders just beyond our patience.

I’ve been told I have the patience of Job.  Don’t know about that, but I’m a very patient guy, and I’ve already seen and participated in a few wonders.  I can wait.

We apologize for any inconvenience.

Who is “We”?  Who is inconvenienced?  Who is not here by their own choice?

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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05 May 2019 22:02
 

I said I apologize.

 
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
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06 May 2019 13:56
 

We overestimate our cognition.

We mistake our bandwidth for the whole spectrum.

There is a world of wonders just beyond our patience.

How do you know the last is true if the first two are true, constitutively and not just as a tendency from time to time?

Stipulating delusion is just as self-defeating as stipulating absolute knowledge.  Logically they are one of apiece, and in any case are reducible to the same problem.  If any of your wrangling in this thread is sincere, then you might be happier not doing epistemology at all—or “high speed mechanics”…whatever you want to call it.  There is, in fact, no need for it.  Why not just assert that our bandwidth is adequate but horizonal, subject to occasional misfires, and that there is always something else beyond the horizon?  It has the benefit of both being true and asserting nothing beyond what any sensible person can discover with a few minutes of honest reflection on their own experience.

 

[ Edited: 06 May 2019 15:38 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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07 May 2019 10:21
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 06 May 2019 01:56 PM

How do you know the last is true if the first two are true, constitutively and not just as a tendency from time to time?
Stipulating delusion is just as self-defeating as stipulating absolute knowledge.  Logically they are one of apiece, and in any case are reducible to the same problem.

I am stipulating neither. what problem are you reducing it to? Try this one… “Why aren’t my (as in anyone’s) conclusions good enough for all?” or, why aren’t your conclusions good enough for everyone?

If any of your wrangling in this thread is sincere, then you might be happier not doing epistemology at all—or “high speed mechanics”…whatever you want to call it.

If you are sincere in calling it wrangling or ‘doing epistemology’, then you can call it whatever. I won’t call it an overture to a conversation.

There is, in fact, no need for it.

I would not bother if that were the case.

Why not just assert that our bandwidth is adequate but horizonal, subject to occasional misfires, and that there is always something else beyond the horizon?  It has the benefit of both being true and asserting nothing beyond what any sensible person can discover with a few minutes of honest reflection on their own experience.

Why don’t you assert that? I grant that this particular use of ‘bandwidth’ is difficult to grasp for most because it applies to a parameter (our attention) that is usually believed to not have one. Logically, it must.

Is the reason your conclusions are not sound enough for me (or some others) because I am wrangling? Am I not reading you? Am I too emotional to think straight? Am I seeking some twisted fulfillment by trying to make gobbledygook spellbinding? Why isn’t it sufficient to answer no?

Speaking to the Mario comparison, there is a difference. I can stop and the BM cannot. Trioon did not involve kneeling or personal revelation. It strikes me as more reflective of reality than the views I previously held which were similar to other atheist posters. If you or anyone can defend the traditional view to my satisfaction, I’ll find something else to do. The traditional view is a vestige of religion and not founded on science.

 

 
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
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07 May 2019 13:10
 

Actually, the problem I had in mind is similar to your own point to ASD in another thread, where you say in response to his emphasis on models, as opposed to perceiving reality: “We make a model, and then we… see it? Then how did we make the model if we didn’t know what we were looking at until we made the model that we can’t see until we make it?!”  Simply put in “delusion” for “model” and you’re there, as in: “We are deluded, and then we…see it?  Then how do we know we’re deluded if we don’t have access to the reality we are looking at, but yet we can’t see that reality but through our overconfidence-driven bandwidth-mistaken delusions?!  How, then, do we know delusion?” 

The common problem, logically—since you refer to logical necessity in your parameterization of attention: in order for the explanations to gain any traction, the arguments from delusion and for absolute knowledge both presuppose what they purport to explain away; thus they are bad explanations.  As you nicely illustrate in your point—your perfectly valid point—to ASD.

If you are not stipulating—or discovering, positing, asserting…whatever—that delusion is some kind of primitive state we have to overcome or cope with because of intrinsic overconfidence and mistaken bandwidth; if instead you mean, simply, we can be deluded, under rather restrictive conditions, and not know it…if the latter is the case then the upshot of Trioonity becomes trivial.  Of course delusion is possible.  But I suspect you are attached to the deepity of “delude responsibility;” that for you delusion is some kind of endemic cognitive hurdle we struggle to overcome (it isn’t).  As you yourself obliquely indicate in another line of reasoning, this strong claim of Trioonity makes no logical sense.

And distinguishing between a “philosophy of examination” and “a high speed mechanics that describes our capacity to examine” is just evasive—as you put it—“gobbledygook.”

As a preface to my last word here, I admit my use of the term “wrangling” revealed my disposition against the OP.  “Twisted fulfillment” is your term, not mine, but it’s apt.  In any case, I confess to suspecting any honesty to your confession amounted to nothing more than: “The more I accuse myself, the more I have a right to judge you,” just absent Camus’ moral subtlety.  Not that there is any sincerity to be had, I suspect.

That developing Trioon did not involve the humility of kneeling is obvious.  Science, however, does.

 
EN
 
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EN
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07 May 2019 14:06
 
Nhoj Morley - 05 May 2019 10:02 PM

I said I apologize.

You stumbled into the black hole on this one.  Not even apologies escape.

 
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