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If God made us, why did he make us so stupid?

 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
Total Posts:  3327
Joined  26-03-2013
 
 
 
21 May 2019 16:07
 
TwoSeven1 - 21 May 2019 03:16 PM
LadyJane - 21 May 2019 02:06 PM

The absence of religious beliefs requires nothing of religious believers while the beliefs of religious believers requires an exception for something that has no logical explanation.  And atheists are extremely accommodating in this regard.  They either once held similar beliefs or simply don’t care.  It’s a private matter.  Accounted for and protected by law.  A personal and legally protected right that is usually held close to the vest and routinely practised in places of worship.  The moderates are apologists for the fundamentalists and the agnostics are apologists for the moderates.  If your place of worship is an internet forum and your beliefs amount to a church of one you open the door to scrutiny.  And the questions it raises are personal which generally makes people defensive.  Which is probably why most people keep it to themselves in the first place.

“If your place of worship is an internet forum and your beliefs amount to a church of one you open the door to scrutiny.”  Who are you referring to?

The off the beaten track believers.  Individuals who don’t belong to any specific denomination of organized religion or adhere to religious traditions.  And in the absence of authority they become the authority.

The traditionalists have a way of dealing with each other when the divide is too far to bridge… 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3fAcxcxoZ8

 
 
TwoSeven1
 
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TwoSeven1
Total Posts:  343
Joined  18-12-2018
 
 
 
22 May 2019 09:21
 
proximacentauri - 21 May 2019 03:38 PM
TwoSeven1 - 21 May 2019 08:38 AM
proximacentauri - 21 May 2019 05:48 AM
EN - 20 May 2019 05:39 PM
TwoSeven1 - 20 May 2019 12:50 PM
EN - 20 May 2019 11:58 AM
TwoSeven1 - 20 May 2019 10:37 AM

This is the best way I can summarize my view:  The love that I have for God is a direct result of the evidence of his love for me.

That’s probably the most significant thing you’ve said. It takes it down to your personal experience of God.

I’m not speaking of personal experiences when I refer to evidence.

m

Well, then I take it back.

As a Christian, I thought I had both.

Is there any one thing that you would say most influenced you to change your mindset?  I’m sincerely curious.

No.  In my case, I would summarize it by saying it was my growing knowledge that the Bible and Christianity is incompatible with reason, logic, and evidence that underpinned my eventual apostasy. Reason and faith resulted in a nagging cognitive dissonance for me and it was cathartic when I finally shit-canned the last vestiges of belief.

Thank you for sharing!

 
TwoSeven1
 
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TwoSeven1
Total Posts:  343
Joined  18-12-2018
 
 
 
22 May 2019 09:21
 
LadyJane - 21 May 2019 04:07 PM
TwoSeven1 - 21 May 2019 03:16 PM
LadyJane - 21 May 2019 02:06 PM

The absence of religious beliefs requires nothing of religious believers while the beliefs of religious believers requires an exception for something that has no logical explanation.  And atheists are extremely accommodating in this regard.  They either once held similar beliefs or simply don’t care.  It’s a private matter.  Accounted for and protected by law.  A personal and legally protected right that is usually held close to the vest and routinely practised in places of worship.  The moderates are apologists for the fundamentalists and the agnostics are apologists for the moderates.  If your place of worship is an internet forum and your beliefs amount to a church of one you open the door to scrutiny.  And the questions it raises are personal which generally makes people defensive.  Which is probably why most people keep it to themselves in the first place.

“If your place of worship is an internet forum and your beliefs amount to a church of one you open the door to scrutiny.”  Who are you referring to?

The off the beaten track believers.  Individuals who don’t belong to any specific denomination of organized religion or adhere to religious traditions.  And in the absence of authority they become the authority.

The traditionalists have a way of dealing with each other when the divide is too far to bridge… 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3fAcxcxoZ8

Who in this thread are you referring to?

 
proximacentauri
 
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proximacentauri
Total Posts:  324
Joined  07-02-2017
 
 
 
23 May 2019 06:21
 
TwoSeven1 - 22 May 2019 09:21 AM
proximacentauri - 21 May 2019 03:38 PM
TwoSeven1 - 21 May 2019 08:38 AM
proximacentauri - 21 May 2019 05:48 AM
EN - 20 May 2019 05:39 PM
TwoSeven1 - 20 May 2019 12:50 PM
EN - 20 May 2019 11:58 AM
TwoSeven1 - 20 May 2019 10:37 AM

This is the best way I can summarize my view:  The love that I have for God is a direct result of the evidence of his love for me.

That’s probably the most significant thing you’ve said. It takes it down to your personal experience of God.

I’m not speaking of personal experiences when I refer to evidence.

m

Well, then I take it back.

As a Christian, I thought I had both.

Is there any one thing that you would say most influenced you to change your mindset?  I’m sincerely curious.

No.  In my case, I would summarize it by saying it was my growing knowledge that the Bible and Christianity is incompatible with reason, logic, and evidence that underpinned my eventual apostasy. Reason and faith resulted in a nagging cognitive dissonance for me and it was cathartic when I finally shit-canned the last vestiges of belief.

Thank you for sharing!

You’re welcome.

Now, I have a question for you. What evidence do you consider paramount to your faith? I won’t critique it,  I’d just like to know what it is.

 
TwoSeven1
 
Avatar
 
 
TwoSeven1
Total Posts:  343
Joined  18-12-2018
 
 
 
23 May 2019 10:12
 
proximacentauri - 23 May 2019 06:21 AM
TwoSeven1 - 22 May 2019 09:21 AM
proximacentauri - 21 May 2019 03:38 PM
TwoSeven1 - 21 May 2019 08:38 AM
proximacentauri - 21 May 2019 05:48 AM
EN - 20 May 2019 05:39 PM
TwoSeven1 - 20 May 2019 12:50 PM
EN - 20 May 2019 11:58 AM
TwoSeven1 - 20 May 2019 10:37 AM

This is the best way I can summarize my view:  The love that I have for God is a direct result of the evidence of his love for me.

That’s probably the most significant thing you’ve said. It takes it down to your personal experience of God.

I’m not speaking of personal experiences when I refer to evidence.

m

Well, then I take it back.

As a Christian, I thought I had both.

Is there any one thing that you would say most influenced you to change your mindset?  I’m sincerely curious.

No.  In my case, I would summarize it by saying it was my growing knowledge that the Bible and Christianity is incompatible with reason, logic, and evidence that underpinned my eventual apostasy. Reason and faith resulted in a nagging cognitive dissonance for me and it was cathartic when I finally shit-canned the last vestiges of belief.

Thank you for sharing!

You’re welcome.

Now, I have a question for you. What evidence do you consider paramount to your faith? I won’t critique it,  I’d just like to know what it is.

Paramount to Christianity is the evidence that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecy.  In context, the Bible timeline shows creation, the fall of man, God’s plan to save man (Old Testament prophecy), salvation offered through Jesus, Jesus’ death and resurrection, then God’s plan for the Good News (Gospel) to spread.  There are many more things going on during and after this list, but I’m keeping this in general reference to God’s plan for salvation.

Isaiah 7:4 explains that the savior would be born of a virgin, and that he would be Immanuel (“God with us”).  Micah 5:2 explains that the savior would be born in Bethlehem.  Zechariah 9:9 explains that the savior would ride into Jerusalem on a colt.  Isaiah 53 explains that the savior would bear our sin and be pierced.  Daniel 9 explains the timeline and order of events.  Matthew, Mark, Luke and John collectively show that Jesus fit each description and fulfilled what was said to happen.

There are more references that make a more full picture, but hopefully my explanation will work as an example for now.

 
proximacentauri
 
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proximacentauri
Total Posts:  324
Joined  07-02-2017
 
 
 
23 May 2019 10:40
 
TwoSeven1 - 23 May 2019 10:12 AM
proximacentauri - 23 May 2019 06:21 AM
TwoSeven1 - 22 May 2019 09:21 AM
proximacentauri - 21 May 2019 03:38 PM
TwoSeven1 - 21 May 2019 08:38 AM
proximacentauri - 21 May 2019 05:48 AM
EN - 20 May 2019 05:39 PM
TwoSeven1 - 20 May 2019 12:50 PM
EN - 20 May 2019 11:58 AM
TwoSeven1 - 20 May 2019 10:37 AM

This is the best way I can summarize my view:  The love that I have for God is a direct result of the evidence of his love for me.

That’s probably the most significant thing you’ve said. It takes it down to your personal experience of God.

I’m not speaking of personal experiences when I refer to evidence.

m

Well, then I take it back.

As a Christian, I thought I had both.

Is there any one thing that you would say most influenced you to change your mindset?  I’m sincerely curious.

No.  In my case, I would summarize it by saying it was my growing knowledge that the Bible and Christianity is incompatible with reason, logic, and evidence that underpinned my eventual apostasy. Reason and faith resulted in a nagging cognitive dissonance for me and it was cathartic when I finally shit-canned the last vestiges of belief.

Thank you for sharing!

You’re welcome.

Now, I have a question for you. What evidence do you consider paramount to your faith? I won’t critique it,  I’d just like to know what it is.

Paramount to Christianity is the evidence that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecy.  In context, the Bible timeline shows creation, the fall of man, God’s plan to save man (Old Testament prophecy), salvation offered through Jesus, Jesus’ death and resurrection, then God’s plan for the Good News (Gospel) to spread.  There are many more things going on during and after this list, but I’m keeping this in general reference to God’s plan for salvation.

Isaiah 7:4 explains that the savior would be born of a virgin, and that he would be Immanuel (“God with us”).  Micah 5:2 explains that the savior would be born in Bethlehem.  Zechariah 9:9 explains that the savior would ride into Jerusalem on a colt.  Isaiah 53 explains that the savior would bear our sin and be pierced.  Daniel 9 explains the timeline and order of events.  Matthew, Mark, Luke and John collectively show that Jesus fit each description and fulfilled what was said to happen.

There are more references that make a more full picture, but hopefully my explanation will work as an example for now.

Okay much of what you said is basic (at least to someone who has studied the Bible in depth) but I get the feeling by what you have intimated in this thread that, for you personally, the fulfillment of all the prophecies in the OT (as recorded in the 4 gospels in the NT) is very important to you in terms of “evidence.” Yes?

 
TwoSeven1
 
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TwoSeven1
Total Posts:  343
Joined  18-12-2018
 
 
 
23 May 2019 11:05
 
proximacentauri - 23 May 2019 10:40 AM
TwoSeven1 - 23 May 2019 10:12 AM
proximacentauri - 23 May 2019 06:21 AM
TwoSeven1 - 22 May 2019 09:21 AM
proximacentauri - 21 May 2019 03:38 PM
TwoSeven1 - 21 May 2019 08:38 AM
proximacentauri - 21 May 2019 05:48 AM
EN - 20 May 2019 05:39 PM
TwoSeven1 - 20 May 2019 12:50 PM
EN - 20 May 2019 11:58 AM
TwoSeven1 - 20 May 2019 10:37 AM

This is the best way I can summarize my view:  The love that I have for God is a direct result of the evidence of his love for me.

That’s probably the most significant thing you’ve said. It takes it down to your personal experience of God.

I’m not speaking of personal experiences when I refer to evidence.

m

Well, then I take it back.

As a Christian, I thought I had both.

Is there any one thing that you would say most influenced you to change your mindset?  I’m sincerely curious.

No.  In my case, I would summarize it by saying it was my growing knowledge that the Bible and Christianity is incompatible with reason, logic, and evidence that underpinned my eventual apostasy. Reason and faith resulted in a nagging cognitive dissonance for me and it was cathartic when I finally shit-canned the last vestiges of belief.

Thank you for sharing!

You’re welcome.

Now, I have a question for you. What evidence do you consider paramount to your faith? I won’t critique it,  I’d just like to know what it is.

Paramount to Christianity is the evidence that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecy.  In context, the Bible timeline shows creation, the fall of man, God’s plan to save man (Old Testament prophecy), salvation offered through Jesus, Jesus’ death and resurrection, then God’s plan for the Good News (Gospel) to spread.  There are many more things going on during and after this list, but I’m keeping this in general reference to God’s plan for salvation.

Isaiah 7:4 explains that the savior would be born of a virgin, and that he would be Immanuel (“God with us”).  Micah 5:2 explains that the savior would be born in Bethlehem.  Zechariah 9:9 explains that the savior would ride into Jerusalem on a colt.  Isaiah 53 explains that the savior would bear our sin and be pierced.  Daniel 9 explains the timeline and order of events.  Matthew, Mark, Luke and John collectively show that Jesus fit each description and fulfilled what was said to happen.

There are more references that make a more full picture, but hopefully my explanation will work as an example for now.

Okay much of what you said is basic (at least to someone who has studied the Bible in depth) but I get the feeling by what you have intimated in this thread that, for you personally, the fulfillment of all the prophecies in the OT (as recorded in the 4 gospels in the NT) is very important to you in terms of “evidence.” Yes?

“Okay much of what you said is basic (at least to someone who has studied the Bible in depth) ...”  Hence why I said this: “There are more references that make a more full picture, but hopefully my explanation will work as an example for now.”

“I get the feeling by what you have intimated in this thread that, for you personally, the fulfillment of all the prophecies in the OT (as recorded in the 4 gospels in the NT) is very important to you in terms of ‘evidence.’ Yes?”  I didn’t say that the four Gospels show that all of the OT prophecies have been fulfilled.  I said that Jesus’ life was detailed in the Gospels, and that it matched what was said in the OT about the savior.  This is the foundation for Christianity.

 
proximacentauri
 
Avatar
 
 
proximacentauri
Total Posts:  324
Joined  07-02-2017
 
 
 
23 May 2019 12:36
 
TwoSeven1 - 23 May 2019 11:05 AM
proximacentauri - 23 May 2019 10:40 AM
TwoSeven1 - 23 May 2019 10:12 AM
proximacentauri - 23 May 2019 06:21 AM
TwoSeven1 - 22 May 2019 09:21 AM
proximacentauri - 21 May 2019 03:38 PM
TwoSeven1 - 21 May 2019 08:38 AM
proximacentauri - 21 May 2019 05:48 AM
EN - 20 May 2019 05:39 PM
TwoSeven1 - 20 May 2019 12:50 PM
EN - 20 May 2019 11:58 AM
TwoSeven1 - 20 May 2019 10:37 AM

This is the best way I can summarize my view:  The love that I have for God is a direct result of the evidence of his love for me.

That’s probably the most significant thing you’ve said. It takes it down to your personal experience of God.

I’m not speaking of personal experiences when I refer to evidence.

m

Well, then I take it back.

As a Christian, I thought I had both.

Is there any one thing that you would say most influenced you to change your mindset?  I’m sincerely curious.

No.  In my case, I would summarize it by saying it was my growing knowledge that the Bible and Christianity is incompatible with reason, logic, and evidence that underpinned my eventual apostasy. Reason and faith resulted in a nagging cognitive dissonance for me and it was cathartic when I finally shit-canned the last vestiges of belief.

Thank you for sharing!

You’re welcome.

Now, I have a question for you. What evidence do you consider paramount to your faith? I won’t critique it,  I’d just like to know what it is.

Paramount to Christianity is the evidence that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecy.  In context, the Bible timeline shows creation, the fall of man, God’s plan to save man (Old Testament prophecy), salvation offered through Jesus, Jesus’ death and resurrection, then God’s plan for the Good News (Gospel) to spread.  There are many more things going on during and after this list, but I’m keeping this in general reference to God’s plan for salvation.

Isaiah 7:4 explains that the savior would be born of a virgin, and that he would be Immanuel (“God with us”).  Micah 5:2 explains that the savior would be born in Bethlehem.  Zechariah 9:9 explains that the savior would ride into Jerusalem on a colt.  Isaiah 53 explains that the savior would bear our sin and be pierced.  Daniel 9 explains the timeline and order of events.  Matthew, Mark, Luke and John collectively show that Jesus fit each description and fulfilled what was said to happen.

There are more references that make a more full picture, but hopefully my explanation will work as an example for now.

Okay much of what you said is basic (at least to someone who has studied the Bible in depth) but I get the feeling by what you have intimated in this thread that, for you personally, the fulfillment of all the prophecies in the OT (as recorded in the 4 gospels in the NT) is very important to you in terms of “evidence.” Yes?

“Okay much of what you said is basic (at least to someone who has studied the Bible in depth) ...”  Hence why I said this: “There are more references that make a more full picture, but hopefully my explanation will work as an example for now.”

“I get the feeling by what you have intimated in this thread that, for you personally, the fulfillment of all the prophecies in the OT (as recorded in the 4 gospels in the NT) is very important to you in terms of ‘evidence.’ Yes?”  I didn’t say that the four Gospels show that all of the OT prophecies have been fulfilled.  I said that Jesus’ life was detailed in the Gospels, and that it matched what was said in the OT about the savior.  This is the foundation for Christianity.

Got it. Thanks for your reply.

 
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