Monsters from the Id

 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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02 June 2019 12:31
 

It is not a reference to Freud. It just uses his vernacular. It is a line from 1957’s classic sci-fi film Forbidden Planet.

On a distant planet, a scientists investigates an ancient race called the Krell (known only by the shape of their doors) while a crew of space-lads fight for their lives against a powerful and invisible monster. The ancient race had developed the ultimate in luxury technology- an intelligent machine that read their minds and manifested any desire. Somehow, this left the planet unpopulated instead of filled with techno-bliss-ninnies. Can the space-lads solve the riddle that the ancient race and the scientist could not?

The lads find the answer and that is part of what makes this film a classic. We have been using the same answer for nearly everything ever since. The ancient machine had amplified and made manifest the primal and unconscious hatred and rage that boiled within all until all were destroyed by their own inner feelings. The ancient designers never saw it coming. We never learn the ancient Krell word for facebook.

It is not hard to imagine what the Krell’s went through. Someone would say something, others would see a powerful and invisible monster lurking behind the speaker and, fling whatever was handy at it. Their minds were not truly linked together. All were linked to the machine. Togetherness was in the machine in all its do-things and opportunities to express approval or dislike.

At first, the Krell’s technology was slow and clumsy but everyone could see the potential breakthrough in Krellan interaction. Krell minds could reach other Krell minds and understanding will bring peace and progress for all. It worked well at first. The machine improved and got faster and faster. The Krell public was dazzled and impressed by each improvement. They were thrilled that their opinions could be known to zillions in seconds. When something happened, the hooked-up Krells knew about it right away. Minutes later, they knew how they collectively felt about it. Actions were called for in even less time.

The designers took this as success and made sure that something was always happening in the machine. Krells became like baseball catchers quickly emptying their mitt for the next pitch that needs their reaction and needs it now, before it is too late to matter. Krells, wanting to matter, did their best to keep up. The machine continued to get better and better at what it was. That mostly meant faster.

The Krells were a lot like us. Complex views filled with nuance and sophistication require contemplation, reflection and learning. The machine’s designers were sure that Krells would do this on their own but they were making it unnecessary. And impossible. Eventually, the machine’s speed allowed it to read only the fastest operations of the Krell minds. It reduce them and limited them to only the thoughts and actions they could have quickly, briefly and completely in the time allowed.

Krells saw this in each other and were concerned that too many of their fellow Krell were monsters. Everyone’s idea of social progress depended first on vanquishing the monsters that oppose it. Everyone was sure that they held their personal monster at bay while others were being less responsible. Everyone lashed out at the monsters which, unbeknownst to them, was each other. Truth and understanding are too damn slow and like using dial-up. The machine had made the waiting painful to endure. The machine was built for monsters driven mad by the painful agony of waiting for the truth.

At the speed of their machine, the Krell could only conclude that everything had to be destroyed before the monsters ruined everything.

[ Edited: 02 June 2019 12:34 by Nhoj Morley]
 
 
burt
 
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burt
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02 June 2019 14:28
 

And then there’s the Ted Sturgeon story about the boy and girl telepaths who go through all sorts of shit before finally getting together and mind melding, at which point they each develop complete hatred of the other.

 
EN
 
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EN
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02 June 2019 15:05
 

Speaking of the Id, how does that fit in with trioonity?  I realize trioonity is about perception, but whence the primal urges that arise?

 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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02 June 2019 17:11
 

That’s what that movie was about? All I remember is the scientist’s daughter. And Robbie the Robot.

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GAD
 
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GAD
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03 June 2019 01:07
 

Loved the movie and never forgot the monsters, it’s something that has stuck with me always.

I thought I used that reference here more then I did, a search only comes back with 3 times over the years, the earliest being here

https://forum.samharris.org/forum/viewreply/642635/

 
 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
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03 June 2019 15:55
 

The negative quirks of social media are catching me by surprise. Who knew we’d come to this peculiar condition just by befriending former and current friends, relatives and strangers? Someone had to abbreviate the word in order to minimize its sincerity, of course . . . or to save two letters?—no one actually knows.

Some perhaps starving mid 20th-century sci-fi story-teller had sufficient natural understanding to imagine/predict key cognitive structures behind an enormous corner of today’s actual communication venues. Astounding, really, though I haven’t myself actually seen the movie or engaged in social media. (I’ll trust your descriptions especially since they align with Wikipedia’s.) It’s not even a corner anymore—it’s a whole block!  It’s as though once we figured out that every deity is myth-based—even the one we’re raised in—we began the treacherous process of creating our own damned god.

Something tells me we won’t stop till we’ve perfected artificial humanity.

[Edited to italicize a word.]

[ Edited: 03 June 2019 16:25 by nonverbal]
 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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03 June 2019 20:43
 
EN - 02 June 2019 03:05 PM

Speaking of the Id, how does that fit in with trioonity?  I realize trioonity is about perception, but whence the primal urges that arise?

The Id is an over-rated scapegoat. Primal urges are a funny idea. Are any urges not primal? Our primal feelings have been shaped by eons of generations. A balance of things like selfishness and sociability have been established. I don’t think we would end up with an excess or bonus well of evil or rage that waits for a reason to be unleashed.

I believe Walter Pigeon’s brain was so grossed out at the thought of Leslie Nielsen getting his paws all over Anne Francis that he mindfully shut it out. The space-lads created the monster. It was what they imagined Dad would have be to treat his daughter to a life of social isolation. The machine brought the lads’ dark imaginings to life while Walt was merely being a jerk. The machine read only the shortest of perceptions. Monsters from Short-sightedness!

Badly miss-shepherded reasoning exploits our primal feelings. Hippo’s perceptual ‘news cycle’ is about 20 ms max. That leaves out perceptions of cabals, deep states or religious groups. Complicated shepherding must occur to convince Hippo that he is threatened by a perception he can consume in few milliseconds. Call it primal priming.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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06 June 2019 05:20
 

The submergence of emotions overwhelms aspirations.

Wherever there is a perception of intimidation there will often be an instinctual response of eliminating it by taking it down.  (As opposed to curling into the fetal position and playing dead.)  As though striking first will prevent your rival from getting the upper hand.  The key is making sure that perception is an accurate depiction of reality.  That fear can quickly turn into aggression making you the rival from a different angle.  Where you are the one wielding the big stick.  And, quite often, it’s those you least expect swinging the club.  As a reaction to the feeling that they are under attack.  They are merely accounting for that surge.   

I think most of the time there is no rival.  I think maybe there is a lot of overly zealous people online acting on every impulse.  Eyes darting around dodging tiny beads of sweat with a waterfall of cortisol swamping the levees of imagination.  Nobody can see straight with all that going on.  And you wanna be sure about these things.  Think about it.  Think of the repercussions if everyone saw everyone else as an enemy every minute of every day.  Like the paranoids who think everyone is out to get them.  It would be like chasing a ghost.  We should keep ourselves in check when it comes to this stuff.  As a safety measure.

You may be holding the wrong person’s head under water.

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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06 June 2019 10:23
 

Question for Lady Jane: I think you are from Ontario.  Did Neil Young sing about you in Helpless or Country Girl?  What is your education/profession?

 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
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06 June 2019 13:55
 

You take a specific culture and a specific time, you give millions of individual minds access to social media and the ability to interact with each other in an anonymous manner. These people absorb and reflect the general, unspoken assumptions of the the culture they live in, then mix this together with their own imaginary personal narratives.

You mix this basically unconscious process together and what do you get?

Our friend Nhoj believes monsters are produced. The sleep of reason does indeed produce monsters.

For the first time in human history, the collective unconscious is out there for all to see.

But does any good come from this?

I’m not a social media maven, but there does seem to be more confusion than clarity; more narcissism than transcendence.

There is also a sinister, concerted, and organized effort at manipulation for political and economic gain.

And, finally, is EN using Neil Young lyrics to hit on Lady Jane? Enquiring minds want to know.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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06 June 2019 14:23
 

We here in Canada are prohibited from thinking songs are about us.  Songs, books, teevee shows, movies…all works of art and any allusions to money are completely off limits.  It breaches the humility requirements.  Even my diary is secondhand.

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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06 June 2019 21:14
 
Cheshire Cat - 06 June 2019 01:55 PM

Our friend Nhoj believes monsters are produced. The sleep of reason does indeed produce monsters.

Actually, I said invisible monsters are seen. The whole effect is in-house brain-wise but that would make a boring movie. Imagine, thousands of years from now, alien explorers reach earth and find our 6G network still running and serving fake news to bots. Long ago, all the real people were so consumed with protecting their reputations, they forgot to eat.

Sleep of reason is a lyrical phrase.

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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06 June 2019 21:27
 
Cheshire Cat - 06 June 2019 01:55 PM

The sleep of reason does indeed produce monsters.

Actually, the purpose of reason is to defend and justify them.

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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07 June 2019 08:52
 

A dearth of intimidation doesn’t see “monsters”.

 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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08 June 2019 16:38
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 06 June 2019 09:27 PM
Cheshire Cat - 06 June 2019 01:55 PM

The sleep of reason does indeed produce monsters.

Actually, the purpose of reason is to defend and justify them.

That’s the purpose of advertising, marketing and propaganda.