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nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
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10 June 2019 08:37
 
DEGENERATEON - 10 June 2019 08:29 AM

To people other than Bruce on the forum:  Is Bruce also known as “owl guy” in other threads?

To Bruce:  What is the point of that excruciatingly long story?  Do we need to know the horsepower of the pumps?  Is the fact that Estella an African American relevant?  If the ammeter is the only thing you need to start up the system, why not just automate the process?

This seems like an engineering problem where they throw in extraneous information and you have to sift through it, except all of the information is extraneous and there’s no solution.

Bbearren is a Bruce, and so is B.B. (EN). Other bbs no doubt lurk in the background.

 
 
bbearren
 
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10 June 2019 08:51
 
nonverbal - 09 June 2019 09:54 PM

Bruce, are you also able to demonstrate applications of critical thinking relating to abstract notions such as free will, theistic faith, or non-human consciousness?

bbearren - 09 June 2019 10:40 PM

Not into philosophizers, not into philosophizing, not my bag.

First, back to the OP:

“Critical thinking is the analysis of facts to form a judgment.  The subject is complex, and several different definitions exist, which generally include the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis, or evaluation of factual evidence.  Critical thinking is self-directed, self-disciplined, self-monitored, and self-corrective thinking.  It presupposes assent to rigorous standards of excellence and mindful command of their use. It entails effective communication and problem-solving abilities as well as a commitment to overcome native egocentrism and sociocentrism.”

nonverbal - 10 June 2019 07:36 AM

You’ve perhaps noticed that you’re alone in this regard among most of the regulars here?

That has not escaped my notice, nor is it of any concern.

Yet you’re here in this thread to badger the regulars, informing them that they fail to think like engineers?

You’ve obviously misconstrued my many reflections on engineers over the years.  To me, thinking like an engineer is most definitely a negative.

Even legitimate engineers rarely pass muster for you, right?

Right.  I’ve worked in the presence of very many engineers.  I can’t really say “with” for the vast majority of them, because of the nature of our working on the same problem/project concurrently.  The greatest part of the battle, always, was getting an engineer to actually understand the problems.  I’ve worked “with” two engineers during my ~50 years in mining, and one of them was an engineer by default—he didn’t have a degree in engineering.  The other was a multiple PhD in engineering, and he was by far the best of the bunch.  We worked together a couple of times, and the last time, for several months on a project of his creation.

 
 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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10 June 2019 09:31
 
DEGENERATEON - 10 June 2019 08:29 AM

To Bruce:  What is the point of that excruciatingly long story?

Complying with a request from EN.

bbearren - 09 June 2019 06:00 PM
EN - 09 June 2019 03:11 PM

From early on, bb asserted that he does not interpret.  So I assume he has some completely objective criteria for CT.  Since I want to learn how to critically think, I am asking bb to simply give me a written example of CT.  Just take a problem or subject and construct an argument or solution demonstrating critical thinking.  It would greatly assist me to see CT in action.

I’m working on one.  Be patient, and it will require more than a single post.

>>edit<< I’ve got one, there are a lot of details left out because there would be way too much to explain about the jargon, etc. that would just be distraction.  It’s still too wordy as it is.  And this may not be what you were looking for.

Do we need to know the horsepower of the pumps?

It helps to define the scope of the problem.  The power steering in your vehicle is a pumping system, but not in any way comparable.

Is the fact that Estella an African American relevant?

This was in the ‘80’s, in the south.  “my superintendent (an engineer) said that the pumping rate for the Marcona was terrible (around 1,100 tph as I recall), he suspected that Estella was the main contributor, and I needed to get a handle on that.”  Estella was an African-American female.  In my view it is relevant to the scope of the issues involved in this problem-solving example.

If the ammeter is the only thing you need to start up the system, why not just automate the process?

That degree of automation was in the distant future at the time of this experience, the ‘80’s.  The constituent inter-related systems of the Marcona were rather complex, (some of those details left out of an overly long story).

This seems like an engineering problem where they throw in extraneous information and you have to sift through it, except all of the information is extraneous and there’s no solution.

Many engineers had been thrown at the problem (did you read the story carefully?  “On my desk in my office right now I have a stack of reports about a foot high.  It seems that every engineer in the company has done a report on the Phosphoria Marcona and how to improve pumping rates, and nothing ever changed.”).  There was indeed a solution, just not one that any of those engineers could envision.

 
 
bbearren
 
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10 June 2019 09:47
 
EN - 10 June 2019 08:19 AM

This is an example of critical thinking on a very concrete subject.  But like non-verbal, I am interested in how it applies to more abstract concepts.  This is an atheist board, so how does it apply to the issue of the existence of God or the historicity of Jesus?  Are you saying that since these matters are in part philosophical that you are not going to discuss those things critically?

How does critical thinking apply to subject matter in which there are no facts, no factual evidence to analyze?  Critical thinking in the realm of philosophy is, for me, malarkey.  I have no use for philosophizers or philosophizing.

“Critical thinking is the analysis of facts to form a judgment.  The subject is complex, and several different definitions exist, which generally include the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis, or evaluation of factual evidence.  Critical thinking is self-directed, self-disciplined, self-monitored, and self-corrective thinking.  It presupposes assent to rigorous standards of excellence and mindful command of their use. It entails effective communication and problem-solving abilities as well as a commitment to overcome native egocentrism and sociocentrism.”

As for the existence of God, if that could be factually proven, there is no need for faith, there would be no atheists.  A Jesus is generally accepted as an historical figure through the writings of a couple of historians of the day.  That has little relevance for faith.

Then what is the purpose of even being here?

I explained that to Nhoj more or less in the podcast.  I’m here because I can be.  I have a POV to which I am entitled.  The rest is in my signature.

 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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10 June 2019 09:47
 

So basically you used your critical thinking skills to solve the problem that dozens of engineers couldn’t figure out and put the racist (or implied racist) superintendent in his place for criticizing Estella?

So your CT skills are evident because you out-thought the smart guys and your virtue is evident because you confronted racism.  Oh, and you’ve seen no evidence of someone using those same skills on this forum?  Does that sum it up?

 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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10 June 2019 09:52
 
DEGENERATEON - 10 June 2019 09:47 AM

So basically you used your critical thinking skills to solve the problem that dozens of engineers couldn’t figure out and put the racist (or implied racist) superintendent in his place for criticizing Estella?

So your CT skills are evident because you out-thought the smart guys and your virtue is evident because you confronted racism.  Oh, and you’ve seen no evidence of someone using those same skills on this forum?  Does that sum it up?

No.

 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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10 June 2019 10:11
 
bbearren - 10 June 2019 09:52 AM
DEGENERATEON - 10 June 2019 09:47 AM

So basically you used your critical thinking skills to solve the problem that dozens of engineers couldn’t figure out and put the racist (or implied racist) superintendent in his place for criticizing Estella?

So your CT skills are evident because you out-thought the smart guys and your virtue is evident because you confronted racism.  Oh, and you’ve seen no evidence of someone using those same skills on this forum?  Does that sum it up?

No.

Well the story just appears to be just a taste braggadocio.  It looks like you solved a complex problem that dozens of engineers familiar with the system couldn’t get a handle on.  Were you / are you an engineer?  Because with that type of cost to operate the system you’d think that the engineers would figure it out.

 
EN
 
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EN
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10 June 2019 10:18
 
bbearren - 10 June 2019 09:47 AM
EN - 10 June 2019 08:19 AM

This is an example of critical thinking on a very concrete subject.  But like non-verbal, I am interested in how it applies to more abstract concepts.  This is an atheist board, so how does it apply to the issue of the existence of God or the historicity of Jesus?  Are you saying that since these matters are in part philosophical that you are not going to discuss those things critically?

How does critical thinking apply to subject matter in which there are no facts, no factual evidence to analyze?  Critical thinking in the realm of philosophy is, for me, malarkey.  I have no use for philosophizers or philosophizing.

“Critical thinking is the analysis of facts to form a judgment.  The subject is complex, and several different definitions exist, which generally include the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis, or evaluation of factual evidence.  Critical thinking is self-directed, self-disciplined, self-monitored, and self-corrective thinking.  It presupposes assent to rigorous standards of excellence and mindful command of their use. It entails effective communication and problem-solving abilities as well as a commitment to overcome native egocentrism and sociocentrism.”

As for the existence of God, if that could be factually proven, there is no need for faith, there would be no atheists.  A Jesus is generally accepted as an historical figure through the writings of a couple of historians of the day.  That has little relevance for faith.

Then what is the purpose of even being here?

I explained that to Nhoj more or less in the podcast.  I’m here because I can be.  I have a POV to which I am entitled.  The rest is in my signature.

OK, I think you’ve basically answered my questions.  Thanks.

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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10 June 2019 10:31
 

“I explained that to Nhoj more or less in the podcast.”


Nhoj has a podcast?  Can you link to this discussion?

 
bbearren
 
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bbearren
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10 June 2019 10:58
 
DEGENERATEON - 10 June 2019 10:11 AM
bbearren - 10 June 2019 09:52 AM
DEGENERATEON - 10 June 2019 09:47 AM

So basically you used your critical thinking skills to solve the problem that dozens of engineers couldn’t figure out and put the racist (or implied racist) superintendent in his place for criticizing Estella?

So your CT skills are evident because you out-thought the smart guys and your virtue is evident because you confronted racism.  Oh, and you’ve seen no evidence of someone using those same skills on this forum?  Does that sum it up?

No.

Well the story just appears to be just a taste braggadocio.

I don’t like that aspect, either.  Just trying to relay what to me are facts and details to answer a question about my problem-solving.

It looks like you solved a complex problem that dozens of engineers familiar with the system couldn’t get a handle on.

Not exactly.  I had solved the pumping rate and coarse feed pumping problems a few years earlier, through observations and experimentation.  The other crews were still using the old methods.  I had had three or four Marcona operators on my crew before Estella.  I had ignored a number of the engineers doing the aforementioned studies.

On one particular occasion, one such engineer taking his turn had been at it for about a week, but my crew had been spared because of shift work and weekends.  We came in for our first second shift after a day off one afternoon and my Marcona operator at the time called me right after we came on duty.  He said, “Look, we got damn near two full ponds up here and this engineer has been sittin’ on a stool in front of the console callin’ himself runnin’ the Marcona all day, and he ain’t pumped shit!”  I replied, “Tell him to get out of the way and let you go to work.”  He answered, “I already did that, and he’s still sittin’ here tryin’ to tell me how to run the Marcona.  He won’t move.”  I said, “I’ll be right up.”

When I entered the control room, the engineer turned, smiled and said, “Look, I’ve got it figured out.  Let me show you this.”  I glanced at the flow chart, and his pumping rate was abysmal.  I told him, “We’re about to run out of room up here, and don’t have time for you.  We’ve got to pump some feed.”  He said, “Well, look at this ...” and I cut him off.  I said, “Get out of the way, now.  You’re welcome to stay, but keep quiet and out of the way.”  My operator still looked a bit intimidated, so I jacked the load up as fast as it could rise and got it leveled off.  The engineer was staring at the difference between his chart and the results of my changes, and looked a bit crestfallen.  He turned and left.  The Marcona operator siad, “Thanks.  He was about to drive me crazy.”  The engineer evidently finished his report without ever returning to the Marcona.

Were you / are you an engineer?

No, geologist.

Because with that type of cost to operate the system you’d think that the engineers would figure it out.

An assumption not born out in my ~50 years of mining.

It seems that knowing the total horsepower of all the pumps might have given you a handle on the scope of the problem.

 
 
bbearren
 
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10 June 2019 11:04
 
DEGENERATEON - 10 June 2019 10:31 AM

“I explained that to Nhoj more or less in the podcast.”


Nhoj has a podcast?  Can you link to this discussion?

Certainly.

The Forum link

The Podcast itself

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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10 June 2019 11:26
 

So are you looking for similar stories embracing increased productivity, cost reduction, improved efficiency and/or ‘six-sigma-esque’ allegories as demonstrations of practacal CT?

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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10 June 2019 11:33
 

I get where bb is coming from on not applying CT to theological issues.  But I think CT does have some application to even unanswerable questions like the existence of God, in that all related claims should be open to skeptical inquiry.  Someone can make absolute claims that they are “100% certain that God exists” or “100% certain that God does not exist”, and CT can be used to show the weaknesses in those claims. It’s simply a matter of asking questions and applying principles of logic and reason, including the use of analogies from other inquiries. Any assertion of truth/fact/reality should be open to CT analysis.

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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10 June 2019 12:16
 

“It seems that knowing the total horsepower of all the pumps might have given you a handle on the scope of the problem.”

But why not just say “a very expensive pumping operation”?  meh, it’s a weak point anyway.  Here’s how I take this thread: 

“Here’s what critical thinking is all about ladies and gents, I’ve got it and that’s just how it is.  I have yet to see it from anyone else on this forum.  So anyway, take that and smoke it!”
“oh yeah well give me an example….”
“There were all these engineers trying to figure this pumping system out and they had a pile of reports stacked feet high.  Not one of ‘em could figure this system out, so I had to come in and fix it.  I used critical thinking!  So that’s what it is folks, I don’t care about what you think about me, just wanted to share that critical thinking is out there and you might want to get you some.”

I’ve got a feeling others here see it in a similar fashion. 

Thanks for the podcast links, never knew that existed.  I’ll listen to your interview sometime and see if I hold a different opinion after.

 
nonverbal
 
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10 June 2019 13:11
 
DEGENERATEON - 10 June 2019 12:16 PM

“It seems that knowing the total horsepower of all the pumps might have given you a handle on the scope of the problem.”

But why not just say “a very expensive pumping operation”?  meh, it’s a weak point anyway.  Here’s how I take this thread: 

“Here’s what critical thinking is all about ladies and gents, I’ve got it and that’s just how it is.  I have yet to see it from anyone else on this forum.  So anyway, take that and smoke it!”
“oh yeah well give me an example….”
“There were all these engineers trying to figure this pumping system out and they had a pile of reports stacked feet high.  Not one of ‘em could figure this system out, so I had to come in and fix it.  I used critical thinking!  So that’s what it is folks, I don’t care about what you think about me, just wanted to share that critical thinking is out there and you might want to get you some.”

I’ve got a feeling others here see it in a similar fashion. 

Thanks for the podcast links, never knew that existed.  I’ll listen to your interview sometime and see if I hold a different opinion after.


Regarding the above boldfaced sentence, and as a former Catholic, I must confess that I only rarely read the owl guy’s longer pieces (“Father, I have sinned. . . .”), but I love him nonetheless. He reminds me of an old pal from my high-school and college days—a social outcast who also had unspeakably brilliant mental skills that no one else seemed to appreciate. Who cares if Bruce is quirky or seems like a braggart when he answers pointed questions such as what you, EN, Nhoj, Jefe, the cat guy, no_p, icy, and ASD have posed to him in this thread? Not me, though I may get impatient with him now and then. I trust he understands he has my respect.

 
 
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