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In my Estimation the new Ideas and Strategies in this Writing will Greatly Improve the World if Understood and Applied

 
kevergar
 
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kevergar
Total Posts:  32
Joined  21-06-2019
 
 
 
23 June 2019 19:38
 
Jefe - 23 June 2019 04:50 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 04:44 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 01:25 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 12:09 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 09:56 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 08:32 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 08:26 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 07:09 PM

burt, I’m not getting across to you. I also believe it is especially important for people to have the ability to direct their own emotions to their own liking.

And this really is not even close to affirmations, you’ll have to add more detail to why you have come to that conclusion based off what I have written.

But most people, most of the time don’t have the ability to direct their emotions, and telling them they should do so is very different from showing them (perhaps through an extended training program). Cat’s meditation work, for example, helps as a means for learning this ability.

All of the strategies that I wrote about in my writing were specifically designed to help train people to direct their emotions more effectively. So that they can feel better also.

That’s the difference between describing the taste of vanilla ice cream and teaching somebody how to make it so they can enjoy the taste as well. In legitimate schools devoted to this sort of thing there are set curricula involving not only intellectual instructions, but physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual exercises that produce the capacities to actually produce experiences, not just hear somebody tell about them.

The paper that I wrote covers all of the components needed to do the practice. It is an instruction that covers the needed ideas to participate. Please read my paper more comprehensively or be more descriptive based on what I have written to prove your point.

You can tell people to “use the force of their mind to guide the stream of emotions, with the intention of feeling well,” but how do you get them to actually develop the capacity to do this, other than telling them it takes effort so go ahead and fake it until you make it. For example, there is an exercise routine that was prescribed for me about 40 years ago, which I carried out over a 3 week period, and periodically repeat, that involves developing the ability to separate the mind into five different but simultaneous focuses of attention. One effect of this exercise is precisely the opposite of “using force,” it opens the mind to recognition of content to the point that no force at all is required, rather one simply recognizes attractions and aversions and selects a point of attention. The point being that this wasn’t a matter of me being told to control my mind in a certain way, rather there was a prescribed set of exercises (physical, emotional, mental) to carry out that had little to do directly with controlling the mind but which built the underlying capacities required.

On the other hand, you might want to explore the work of Antonio Damasio on emotion, and the relationship between emotions and feelings.

Okay I think it is important to keep in mind Jordan Peterson’s advice on incremental training. The different strategies vary in difficulty, but perhaps it is not so complicated as you are imagining. So there are really two issues that I see that can inhibit someone from doing the practices. The first is just not quite understanding how to do the practices in the mind which I am working on clarifying. And the other issue is more of once you learn the basics of the strategies on how to do them just having enough skill of mind and power of mind to do the exercise effectively. So for example, the strategy that I said helps people with depression requires the least amount of power of the mind. That practice is ‘non-resistance’. The way that I would describe the ‘non-resistance’ practice is that often times when someone is depressed it can be extraordinarily tiring to constantly resist ones negative emotions. So I quite like the practice because instead of constantly providing more resistance to no avail, you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

also, I am working on a concise step by step guide now for the practice

thanks for your question.

I think you might be off base with depression, which is a condition that has biological roots. Ordinary depression (as in “feeling down”) is not the same. But clinical depression is a serious illness; it’s not a matter of non-resistance, to coin a phrase, resistance is futile. I have a cousin who experiences bouts of clinical depression and simply telling her not to resist it would be like telling somebody caught in a burning house not resist the flames. I get what you’re aiming at, but with things that have medical roots there is more to consider.

On a cautionary note, it should be stated clearly that this practice and methodology is not for everyone, and cannot be expected to mitigate or negate medical conditions that affect emotional stability.  It would be highly irresponsible, and possibly dangerous, to think that is possible or even probable.

kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM

...you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

What background data do you have to support this statement?

The best evidence that I can give you is to just explain it out rationally.

This strategy might give you relief If it feels tiring to constantly grind and push oneself to do little things. The strategy can also be thought of as ‘letting go’ for a period of time. First, would you agree that it still requires focus and attention to continuously keep the intention to ‘let go’/‘not resist’ emotion for a period of time? If you feel better while doing this practice then this can also be thought of as directing your mind accurately enough to feel better. In other words it takes accuracy to direct your mind in a way that causes you to feel better. The strategies that I have thought of give the user a different way to direct emotions to maximize feeling better(emotionally satisfied). Remember that the goal is to feel better while doing this practice.

I hope this explains why I argue that these practices help the user feel better and increase intelligence at the same time thus knocking out two birds with one stone.

 

 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
Total Posts:  7135
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
23 June 2019 22:46
 
kevergar - 23 June 2019 07:38 PM
Jefe - 23 June 2019 04:50 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 04:44 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 01:25 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 12:09 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 09:56 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 08:32 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 08:26 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 07:09 PM

burt, I’m not getting across to you. I also believe it is especially important for people to have the ability to direct their own emotions to their own liking.

And this really is not even close to affirmations, you’ll have to add more detail to why you have come to that conclusion based off what I have written.

But most people, most of the time don’t have the ability to direct their emotions, and telling them they should do so is very different from showing them (perhaps through an extended training program). Cat’s meditation work, for example, helps as a means for learning this ability.

All of the strategies that I wrote about in my writing were specifically designed to help train people to direct their emotions more effectively. So that they can feel better also.

That’s the difference between describing the taste of vanilla ice cream and teaching somebody how to make it so they can enjoy the taste as well. In legitimate schools devoted to this sort of thing there are set curricula involving not only intellectual instructions, but physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual exercises that produce the capacities to actually produce experiences, not just hear somebody tell about them.

The paper that I wrote covers all of the components needed to do the practice. It is an instruction that covers the needed ideas to participate. Please read my paper more comprehensively or be more descriptive based on what I have written to prove your point.

You can tell people to “use the force of their mind to guide the stream of emotions, with the intention of feeling well,” but how do you get them to actually develop the capacity to do this, other than telling them it takes effort so go ahead and fake it until you make it. For example, there is an exercise routine that was prescribed for me about 40 years ago, which I carried out over a 3 week period, and periodically repeat, that involves developing the ability to separate the mind into five different but simultaneous focuses of attention. One effect of this exercise is precisely the opposite of “using force,” it opens the mind to recognition of content to the point that no force at all is required, rather one simply recognizes attractions and aversions and selects a point of attention. The point being that this wasn’t a matter of me being told to control my mind in a certain way, rather there was a prescribed set of exercises (physical, emotional, mental) to carry out that had little to do directly with controlling the mind but which built the underlying capacities required.

On the other hand, you might want to explore the work of Antonio Damasio on emotion, and the relationship between emotions and feelings.

Okay I think it is important to keep in mind Jordan Peterson’s advice on incremental training. The different strategies vary in difficulty, but perhaps it is not so complicated as you are imagining. So there are really two issues that I see that can inhibit someone from doing the practices. The first is just not quite understanding how to do the practices in the mind which I am working on clarifying. And the other issue is more of once you learn the basics of the strategies on how to do them just having enough skill of mind and power of mind to do the exercise effectively. So for example, the strategy that I said helps people with depression requires the least amount of power of the mind. That practice is ‘non-resistance’. The way that I would describe the ‘non-resistance’ practice is that often times when someone is depressed it can be extraordinarily tiring to constantly resist ones negative emotions. So I quite like the practice because instead of constantly providing more resistance to no avail, you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

also, I am working on a concise step by step guide now for the practice

thanks for your question.

I think you might be off base with depression, which is a condition that has biological roots. Ordinary depression (as in “feeling down”) is not the same. But clinical depression is a serious illness; it’s not a matter of non-resistance, to coin a phrase, resistance is futile. I have a cousin who experiences bouts of clinical depression and simply telling her not to resist it would be like telling somebody caught in a burning house not resist the flames. I get what you’re aiming at, but with things that have medical roots there is more to consider.

On a cautionary note, it should be stated clearly that this practice and methodology is not for everyone, and cannot be expected to mitigate or negate medical conditions that affect emotional stability.  It would be highly irresponsible, and possibly dangerous, to think that is possible or even probable.

kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM

...you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

What background data do you have to support this statement?

The best evidence that I can give you is to just explain it out rationally.

This strategy might give you relief If it feels tiring to constantly grind and push oneself to do little things. The strategy can also be thought of as ‘letting go’ for a period of time. First, would you agree that it still requires focus and attention to continuously keep the intention to ‘let go’/‘not resist’ emotion for a period of time? If you feel better while doing this practice then this can also be thought of as directing your mind accurately enough to feel better. In other words it takes accuracy to direct your mind in a way that causes you to feel better. The strategies that I have thought of give the user a different way to direct emotions to maximize feeling better(emotionally satisfied). Remember that the goal is to feel better while doing this practice.

I hope this explains why I argue that these practices help the user feel better and increase intelligence at the same time thus knocking out two birds with one stone.

It does not.  There are real risks when people with medical conditions try to treat them with ‘positive thinking’.
It is extremely irresponsible for you to suggest that any method other than prescribed medication and professional medical treatment can help people with depression.  You need more qualifications and hard data before you should even begin to suggest your ‘method’ can help people with similar medical conditions.  You could, ultimately, be responsible for someone’s life if that person foregoes medical advice and tries your method instead.

 
 
kevergar
 
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kevergar
Total Posts:  32
Joined  21-06-2019
 
 
 
24 June 2019 10:14
 
Jefe - 23 June 2019 10:46 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 07:38 PM
Jefe - 23 June 2019 04:50 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 04:44 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 01:25 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 12:09 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 09:56 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 08:32 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 08:26 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 07:09 PM

burt, I’m not getting across to you. I also believe it is especially important for people to have the ability to direct their own emotions to their own liking.

And this really is not even close to affirmations, you’ll have to add more detail to why you have come to that conclusion based off what I have written.

But most people, most of the time don’t have the ability to direct their emotions, and telling them they should do so is very different from showing them (perhaps through an extended training program). Cat’s meditation work, for example, helps as a means for learning this ability.

All of the strategies that I wrote about in my writing were specifically designed to help train people to direct their emotions more effectively. So that they can feel better also.

That’s the difference between describing the taste of vanilla ice cream and teaching somebody how to make it so they can enjoy the taste as well. In legitimate schools devoted to this sort of thing there are set curricula involving not only intellectual instructions, but physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual exercises that produce the capacities to actually produce experiences, not just hear somebody tell about them.

The paper that I wrote covers all of the components needed to do the practice. It is an instruction that covers the needed ideas to participate. Please read my paper more comprehensively or be more descriptive based on what I have written to prove your point.

You can tell people to “use the force of their mind to guide the stream of emotions, with the intention of feeling well,” but how do you get them to actually develop the capacity to do this, other than telling them it takes effort so go ahead and fake it until you make it. For example, there is an exercise routine that was prescribed for me about 40 years ago, which I carried out over a 3 week period, and periodically repeat, that involves developing the ability to separate the mind into five different but simultaneous focuses of attention. One effect of this exercise is precisely the opposite of “using force,” it opens the mind to recognition of content to the point that no force at all is required, rather one simply recognizes attractions and aversions and selects a point of attention. The point being that this wasn’t a matter of me being told to control my mind in a certain way, rather there was a prescribed set of exercises (physical, emotional, mental) to carry out that had little to do directly with controlling the mind but which built the underlying capacities required.

On the other hand, you might want to explore the work of Antonio Damasio on emotion, and the relationship between emotions and feelings.

Okay I think it is important to keep in mind Jordan Peterson’s advice on incremental training. The different strategies vary in difficulty, but perhaps it is not so complicated as you are imagining. So there are really two issues that I see that can inhibit someone from doing the practices. The first is just not quite understanding how to do the practices in the mind which I am working on clarifying. And the other issue is more of once you learn the basics of the strategies on how to do them just having enough skill of mind and power of mind to do the exercise effectively. So for example, the strategy that I said helps people with depression requires the least amount of power of the mind. That practice is ‘non-resistance’. The way that I would describe the ‘non-resistance’ practice is that often times when someone is depressed it can be extraordinarily tiring to constantly resist ones negative emotions. So I quite like the practice because instead of constantly providing more resistance to no avail, you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

also, I am working on a concise step by step guide now for the practice

thanks for your question.

I think you might be off base with depression, which is a condition that has biological roots. Ordinary depression (as in “feeling down”) is not the same. But clinical depression is a serious illness; it’s not a matter of non-resistance, to coin a phrase, resistance is futile. I have a cousin who experiences bouts of clinical depression and simply telling her not to resist it would be like telling somebody caught in a burning house not resist the flames. I get what you’re aiming at, but with things that have medical roots there is more to consider.

On a cautionary note, it should be stated clearly that this practice and methodology is not for everyone, and cannot be expected to mitigate or negate medical conditions that affect emotional stability.  It would be highly irresponsible, and possibly dangerous, to think that is possible or even probable.

kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM

...you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

What background data do you have to support this statement?

The best evidence that I can give you is to just explain it out rationally.

This strategy might give you relief If it feels tiring to constantly grind and push oneself to do little things. The strategy can also be thought of as ‘letting go’ for a period of time. First, would you agree that it still requires focus and attention to continuously keep the intention to ‘let go’/‘not resist’ emotion for a period of time? If you feel better while doing this practice then this can also be thought of as directing your mind accurately enough to feel better. In other words it takes accuracy to direct your mind in a way that causes you to feel better. The strategies that I have thought of give the user a different way to direct emotions to maximize feeling better(emotionally satisfied). Remember that the goal is to feel better while doing this practice.

I hope this explains why I argue that these practices help the user feel better and increase intelligence at the same time thus knocking out two birds with one stone.

It does not.  There are real risks when people with medical conditions try to treat them with ‘positive thinking’.
It is extremely irresponsible for you to suggest that any method other than prescribed medication and professional medical treatment can help people with depression.  You need more qualifications and hard data before you should even begin to suggest your ‘method’ can help people with similar medical conditions.  You could, ultimately, be responsible for someone’s life if that person foregoes medical advice and tries your method instead.

Shouldn’t we still keep an open dialogue? What do you suggest I should do?

 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  7135
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
24 June 2019 10:57
 
kevergar - 24 June 2019 10:14 AM
Jefe - 23 June 2019 10:46 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 07:38 PM
Jefe - 23 June 2019 04:50 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 04:44 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 01:25 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 12:09 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 09:56 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 08:32 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 08:26 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 07:09 PM

burt, I’m not getting across to you. I also believe it is especially important for people to have the ability to direct their own emotions to their own liking.

And this really is not even close to affirmations, you’ll have to add more detail to why you have come to that conclusion based off what I have written.

But most people, most of the time don’t have the ability to direct their emotions, and telling them they should do so is very different from showing them (perhaps through an extended training program). Cat’s meditation work, for example, helps as a means for learning this ability.

All of the strategies that I wrote about in my writing were specifically designed to help train people to direct their emotions more effectively. So that they can feel better also.

That’s the difference between describing the taste of vanilla ice cream and teaching somebody how to make it so they can enjoy the taste as well. In legitimate schools devoted to this sort of thing there are set curricula involving not only intellectual instructions, but physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual exercises that produce the capacities to actually produce experiences, not just hear somebody tell about them.

The paper that I wrote covers all of the components needed to do the practice. It is an instruction that covers the needed ideas to participate. Please read my paper more comprehensively or be more descriptive based on what I have written to prove your point.

You can tell people to “use the force of their mind to guide the stream of emotions, with the intention of feeling well,” but how do you get them to actually develop the capacity to do this, other than telling them it takes effort so go ahead and fake it until you make it. For example, there is an exercise routine that was prescribed for me about 40 years ago, which I carried out over a 3 week period, and periodically repeat, that involves developing the ability to separate the mind into five different but simultaneous focuses of attention. One effect of this exercise is precisely the opposite of “using force,” it opens the mind to recognition of content to the point that no force at all is required, rather one simply recognizes attractions and aversions and selects a point of attention. The point being that this wasn’t a matter of me being told to control my mind in a certain way, rather there was a prescribed set of exercises (physical, emotional, mental) to carry out that had little to do directly with controlling the mind but which built the underlying capacities required.

On the other hand, you might want to explore the work of Antonio Damasio on emotion, and the relationship between emotions and feelings.

Okay I think it is important to keep in mind Jordan Peterson’s advice on incremental training. The different strategies vary in difficulty, but perhaps it is not so complicated as you are imagining. So there are really two issues that I see that can inhibit someone from doing the practices. The first is just not quite understanding how to do the practices in the mind which I am working on clarifying. And the other issue is more of once you learn the basics of the strategies on how to do them just having enough skill of mind and power of mind to do the exercise effectively. So for example, the strategy that I said helps people with depression requires the least amount of power of the mind. That practice is ‘non-resistance’. The way that I would describe the ‘non-resistance’ practice is that often times when someone is depressed it can be extraordinarily tiring to constantly resist ones negative emotions. So I quite like the practice because instead of constantly providing more resistance to no avail, you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

also, I am working on a concise step by step guide now for the practice

thanks for your question.

I think you might be off base with depression, which is a condition that has biological roots. Ordinary depression (as in “feeling down”) is not the same. But clinical depression is a serious illness; it’s not a matter of non-resistance, to coin a phrase, resistance is futile. I have a cousin who experiences bouts of clinical depression and simply telling her not to resist it would be like telling somebody caught in a burning house not resist the flames. I get what you’re aiming at, but with things that have medical roots there is more to consider.

On a cautionary note, it should be stated clearly that this practice and methodology is not for everyone, and cannot be expected to mitigate or negate medical conditions that affect emotional stability.  It would be highly irresponsible, and possibly dangerous, to think that is possible or even probable.

kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM

...you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

What background data do you have to support this statement?

The best evidence that I can give you is to just explain it out rationally.

This strategy might give you relief If it feels tiring to constantly grind and push oneself to do little things. The strategy can also be thought of as ‘letting go’ for a period of time. First, would you agree that it still requires focus and attention to continuously keep the intention to ‘let go’/‘not resist’ emotion for a period of time? If you feel better while doing this practice then this can also be thought of as directing your mind accurately enough to feel better. In other words it takes accuracy to direct your mind in a way that causes you to feel better. The strategies that I have thought of give the user a different way to direct emotions to maximize feeling better(emotionally satisfied). Remember that the goal is to feel better while doing this practice.

I hope this explains why I argue that these practices help the user feel better and increase intelligence at the same time thus knocking out two birds with one stone.

It does not.  There are real risks when people with medical conditions try to treat them with ‘positive thinking’.
It is extremely irresponsible for you to suggest that any method other than prescribed medication and professional medical treatment can help people with depression.  You need more qualifications and hard data before you should even begin to suggest your ‘method’ can help people with similar medical conditions.  You could, ultimately, be responsible for someone’s life if that person foregoes medical advice and tries your method instead.

Shouldn’t we still keep an open dialogue? What do you suggest I should do?

I suggest you consult medical professionals and get their buy-in before you bill your methods as a viable treatment or practice.  If a person with bi-polar disorder, clinical depression or other medically treated condition adopts your methods and, as a result, harms themselves, or others, you bear responsibility for that by billing your method as a possible treatment for their ailment. 

Note that my reading of your words in this thread suggests, to me, that you lack knowledge of, and in-depth understanding of the effects of clinical disorders that affect one’s emotional state.

[ Edited: 24 June 2019 11:00 by Jefe]
 
 
kevergar
 
Avatar
 
 
kevergar
Total Posts:  32
Joined  21-06-2019
 
 
 
24 June 2019 13:50
 
Jefe - 24 June 2019 10:57 AM
kevergar - 24 June 2019 10:14 AM
Jefe - 23 June 2019 10:46 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 07:38 PM
Jefe - 23 June 2019 04:50 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 04:44 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 01:25 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 12:09 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 09:56 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 08:32 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 08:26 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 07:09 PM

burt, I’m not getting across to you. I also believe it is especially important for people to have the ability to direct their own emotions to their own liking.

And this really is not even close to affirmations, you’ll have to add more detail to why you have come to that conclusion based off what I have written.

But most people, most of the time don’t have the ability to direct their emotions, and telling them they should do so is very different from showing them (perhaps through an extended training program). Cat’s meditation work, for example, helps as a means for learning this ability.

All of the strategies that I wrote about in my writing were specifically designed to help train people to direct their emotions more effectively. So that they can feel better also.

That’s the difference between describing the taste of vanilla ice cream and teaching somebody how to make it so they can enjoy the taste as well. In legitimate schools devoted to this sort of thing there are set curricula involving not only intellectual instructions, but physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual exercises that produce the capacities to actually produce experiences, not just hear somebody tell about them.

The paper that I wrote covers all of the components needed to do the practice. It is an instruction that covers the needed ideas to participate. Please read my paper more comprehensively or be more descriptive based on what I have written to prove your point.

You can tell people to “use the force of their mind to guide the stream of emotions, with the intention of feeling well,” but how do you get them to actually develop the capacity to do this, other than telling them it takes effort so go ahead and fake it until you make it. For example, there is an exercise routine that was prescribed for me about 40 years ago, which I carried out over a 3 week period, and periodically repeat, that involves developing the ability to separate the mind into five different but simultaneous focuses of attention. One effect of this exercise is precisely the opposite of “using force,” it opens the mind to recognition of content to the point that no force at all is required, rather one simply recognizes attractions and aversions and selects a point of attention. The point being that this wasn’t a matter of me being told to control my mind in a certain way, rather there was a prescribed set of exercises (physical, emotional, mental) to carry out that had little to do directly with controlling the mind but which built the underlying capacities required.

On the other hand, you might want to explore the work of Antonio Damasio on emotion, and the relationship between emotions and feelings.

Okay I think it is important to keep in mind Jordan Peterson’s advice on incremental training. The different strategies vary in difficulty, but perhaps it is not so complicated as you are imagining. So there are really two issues that I see that can inhibit someone from doing the practices. The first is just not quite understanding how to do the practices in the mind which I am working on clarifying. And the other issue is more of once you learn the basics of the strategies on how to do them just having enough skill of mind and power of mind to do the exercise effectively. So for example, the strategy that I said helps people with depression requires the least amount of power of the mind. That practice is ‘non-resistance’. The way that I would describe the ‘non-resistance’ practice is that often times when someone is depressed it can be extraordinarily tiring to constantly resist ones negative emotions. So I quite like the practice because instead of constantly providing more resistance to no avail, you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

also, I am working on a concise step by step guide now for the practice

thanks for your question.

I think you might be off base with depression, which is a condition that has biological roots. Ordinary depression (as in “feeling down”) is not the same. But clinical depression is a serious illness; it’s not a matter of non-resistance, to coin a phrase, resistance is futile. I have a cousin who experiences bouts of clinical depression and simply telling her not to resist it would be like telling somebody caught in a burning house not resist the flames. I get what you’re aiming at, but with things that have medical roots there is more to consider.

On a cautionary note, it should be stated clearly that this practice and methodology is not for everyone, and cannot be expected to mitigate or negate medical conditions that affect emotional stability.  It would be highly irresponsible, and possibly dangerous, to think that is possible or even probable.

kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM

...you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

What background data do you have to support this statement?

The best evidence that I can give you is to just explain it out rationally.

This strategy might give you relief If it feels tiring to constantly grind and push oneself to do little things. The strategy can also be thought of as ‘letting go’ for a period of time. First, would you agree that it still requires focus and attention to continuously keep the intention to ‘let go’/‘not resist’ emotion for a period of time? If you feel better while doing this practice then this can also be thought of as directing your mind accurately enough to feel better. In other words it takes accuracy to direct your mind in a way that causes you to feel better. The strategies that I have thought of give the user a different way to direct emotions to maximize feeling better(emotionally satisfied). Remember that the goal is to feel better while doing this practice.

I hope this explains why I argue that these practices help the user feel better and increase intelligence at the same time thus knocking out two birds with one stone.

It does not.  There are real risks when people with medical conditions try to treat them with ‘positive thinking’.
It is extremely irresponsible for you to suggest that any method other than prescribed medication and professional medical treatment can help people with depression.  You need more qualifications and hard data before you should even begin to suggest your ‘method’ can help people with similar medical conditions.  You could, ultimately, be responsible for someone’s life if that person foregoes medical advice and tries your method instead.

Shouldn’t we still keep an open dialogue? What do you suggest I should do?

I suggest you consult medical professionals and get their buy-in before you bill your methods as a viable treatment or practice.  If a person with bi-polar disorder, clinical depression or other medically treated condition adopts your methods and, as a result, harms themselves, or others, you bear responsibility for that by billing your method as a possible treatment for their ailment. 

Note that my reading of your words in this thread suggests, to me, that you lack knowledge of, and in-depth understanding of the effects of clinical disorders that affect one’s emotional state.

I didn’t know that there were rules and regulations regarding this kind of thing. My initial reaction was to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Also, I believe in working things out through free speech. And I guess people give their opinions on how to live a better life all the time on the internet. So I am wondering what the difference between that is and my ideas.

 
Jb8989
 
Avatar
 
 
Jb8989
Total Posts:  6394
Joined  31-01-2012
 
 
 
24 June 2019 14:00
 
kevergar - 23 June 2019 03:06 PM

Like for example when you progress at being able to control your own emotions, you can create a much more positive head space, and the increases in intelligence really helps people be more accurate in their judgement. I’m not saying it’s perfect because people still make mistakes, but I think it’s a big step in the right direction.

I think that you’re probably right. Although I wonder whether controlling your emotions is akin to controlling all internal dialogue, thoughts included. Nevetheless, it seems to me that most people operate unaware of how most of their decisions right down to conscious body language have to do with how they feel in any given moment.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
Total Posts:  7135
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
24 June 2019 14:37
 
kevergar - 24 June 2019 01:50 PM
Jefe - 24 June 2019 10:57 AM
kevergar - 24 June 2019 10:14 AM
Jefe - 23 June 2019 10:46 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 07:38 PM
Jefe - 23 June 2019 04:50 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 04:44 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 01:25 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 12:09 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 09:56 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 08:32 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 08:26 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 07:09 PM

burt, I’m not getting across to you. I also believe it is especially important for people to have the ability to direct their own emotions to their own liking.

And this really is not even close to affirmations, you’ll have to add more detail to why you have come to that conclusion based off what I have written.

But most people, most of the time don’t have the ability to direct their emotions, and telling them they should do so is very different from showing them (perhaps through an extended training program). Cat’s meditation work, for example, helps as a means for learning this ability.

All of the strategies that I wrote about in my writing were specifically designed to help train people to direct their emotions more effectively. So that they can feel better also.

That’s the difference between describing the taste of vanilla ice cream and teaching somebody how to make it so they can enjoy the taste as well. In legitimate schools devoted to this sort of thing there are set curricula involving not only intellectual instructions, but physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual exercises that produce the capacities to actually produce experiences, not just hear somebody tell about them.

The paper that I wrote covers all of the components needed to do the practice. It is an instruction that covers the needed ideas to participate. Please read my paper more comprehensively or be more descriptive based on what I have written to prove your point.

You can tell people to “use the force of their mind to guide the stream of emotions, with the intention of feeling well,” but how do you get them to actually develop the capacity to do this, other than telling them it takes effort so go ahead and fake it until you make it. For example, there is an exercise routine that was prescribed for me about 40 years ago, which I carried out over a 3 week period, and periodically repeat, that involves developing the ability to separate the mind into five different but simultaneous focuses of attention. One effect of this exercise is precisely the opposite of “using force,” it opens the mind to recognition of content to the point that no force at all is required, rather one simply recognizes attractions and aversions and selects a point of attention. The point being that this wasn’t a matter of me being told to control my mind in a certain way, rather there was a prescribed set of exercises (physical, emotional, mental) to carry out that had little to do directly with controlling the mind but which built the underlying capacities required.

On the other hand, you might want to explore the work of Antonio Damasio on emotion, and the relationship between emotions and feelings.

Okay I think it is important to keep in mind Jordan Peterson’s advice on incremental training. The different strategies vary in difficulty, but perhaps it is not so complicated as you are imagining. So there are really two issues that I see that can inhibit someone from doing the practices. The first is just not quite understanding how to do the practices in the mind which I am working on clarifying. And the other issue is more of once you learn the basics of the strategies on how to do them just having enough skill of mind and power of mind to do the exercise effectively. So for example, the strategy that I said helps people with depression requires the least amount of power of the mind. That practice is ‘non-resistance’. The way that I would describe the ‘non-resistance’ practice is that often times when someone is depressed it can be extraordinarily tiring to constantly resist ones negative emotions. So I quite like the practice because instead of constantly providing more resistance to no avail, you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

also, I am working on a concise step by step guide now for the practice

thanks for your question.

I think you might be off base with depression, which is a condition that has biological roots. Ordinary depression (as in “feeling down”) is not the same. But clinical depression is a serious illness; it’s not a matter of non-resistance, to coin a phrase, resistance is futile. I have a cousin who experiences bouts of clinical depression and simply telling her not to resist it would be like telling somebody caught in a burning house not resist the flames. I get what you’re aiming at, but with things that have medical roots there is more to consider.

On a cautionary note, it should be stated clearly that this practice and methodology is not for everyone, and cannot be expected to mitigate or negate medical conditions that affect emotional stability.  It would be highly irresponsible, and possibly dangerous, to think that is possible or even probable.

kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM

...you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

What background data do you have to support this statement?

The best evidence that I can give you is to just explain it out rationally.

This strategy might give you relief If it feels tiring to constantly grind and push oneself to do little things. The strategy can also be thought of as ‘letting go’ for a period of time. First, would you agree that it still requires focus and attention to continuously keep the intention to ‘let go’/‘not resist’ emotion for a period of time? If you feel better while doing this practice then this can also be thought of as directing your mind accurately enough to feel better. In other words it takes accuracy to direct your mind in a way that causes you to feel better. The strategies that I have thought of give the user a different way to direct emotions to maximize feeling better(emotionally satisfied). Remember that the goal is to feel better while doing this practice.

I hope this explains why I argue that these practices help the user feel better and increase intelligence at the same time thus knocking out two birds with one stone.

It does not.  There are real risks when people with medical conditions try to treat them with ‘positive thinking’.
It is extremely irresponsible for you to suggest that any method other than prescribed medication and professional medical treatment can help people with depression.  You need more qualifications and hard data before you should even begin to suggest your ‘method’ can help people with similar medical conditions.  You could, ultimately, be responsible for someone’s life if that person foregoes medical advice and tries your method instead.

Shouldn’t we still keep an open dialogue? What do you suggest I should do?

I suggest you consult medical professionals and get their buy-in before you bill your methods as a viable treatment or practice.  If a person with bi-polar disorder, clinical depression or other medically treated condition adopts your methods and, as a result, harms themselves, or others, you bear responsibility for that by billing your method as a possible treatment for their ailment. 

Note that my reading of your words in this thread suggests, to me, that you lack knowledge of, and in-depth understanding of the effects of clinical disorders that affect one’s emotional state.

I didn’t know that there were rules and regulations regarding this kind of thing. My initial reaction was to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Also, I believe in working things out through free speech. And I guess people give their opinions on how to live a better life all the time on the internet. So I am wondering what the difference between that is and my ideas.

The difference is that you’re talking about depression, and managing it in a way that might be contrary to medical advice provided for their treatment.  This possibility has real and imminent risks for that patient.

No one is curtailing your freedom of speach here.  I’m just pointing out some responsibilities you may be overlooking.

If you choose to overlook those risks, that is on you.  If you choose to acknowledge those risks and work to mitigate them, it serves to illustrate your commitment to the wellbeing of all of your potential adherents.

 
 
kevergar
 
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kevergar
Total Posts:  32
Joined  21-06-2019
 
 
 
24 June 2019 16:25
 
Jefe - 24 June 2019 02:37 PM
kevergar - 24 June 2019 01:50 PM
Jefe - 24 June 2019 10:57 AM
kevergar - 24 June 2019 10:14 AM
Jefe - 23 June 2019 10:46 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 07:38 PM
Jefe - 23 June 2019 04:50 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 04:44 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 01:25 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 12:09 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 09:56 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 08:32 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 08:26 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 07:09 PM

burt, I’m not getting across to you. I also believe it is especially important for people to have the ability to direct their own emotions to their own liking.

And this really is not even close to affirmations, you’ll have to add more detail to why you have come to that conclusion based off what I have written.

But most people, most of the time don’t have the ability to direct their emotions, and telling them they should do so is very different from showing them (perhaps through an extended training program). Cat’s meditation work, for example, helps as a means for learning this ability.

All of the strategies that I wrote about in my writing were specifically designed to help train people to direct their emotions more effectively. So that they can feel better also.

That’s the difference between describing the taste of vanilla ice cream and teaching somebody how to make it so they can enjoy the taste as well. In legitimate schools devoted to this sort of thing there are set curricula involving not only intellectual instructions, but physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual exercises that produce the capacities to actually produce experiences, not just hear somebody tell about them.

The paper that I wrote covers all of the components needed to do the practice. It is an instruction that covers the needed ideas to participate. Please read my paper more comprehensively or be more descriptive based on what I have written to prove your point.

You can tell people to “use the force of their mind to guide the stream of emotions, with the intention of feeling well,” but how do you get them to actually develop the capacity to do this, other than telling them it takes effort so go ahead and fake it until you make it. For example, there is an exercise routine that was prescribed for me about 40 years ago, which I carried out over a 3 week period, and periodically repeat, that involves developing the ability to separate the mind into five different but simultaneous focuses of attention. One effect of this exercise is precisely the opposite of “using force,” it opens the mind to recognition of content to the point that no force at all is required, rather one simply recognizes attractions and aversions and selects a point of attention. The point being that this wasn’t a matter of me being told to control my mind in a certain way, rather there was a prescribed set of exercises (physical, emotional, mental) to carry out that had little to do directly with controlling the mind but which built the underlying capacities required.

On the other hand, you might want to explore the work of Antonio Damasio on emotion, and the relationship between emotions and feelings.

Okay I think it is important to keep in mind Jordan Peterson’s advice on incremental training. The different strategies vary in difficulty, but perhaps it is not so complicated as you are imagining. So there are really two issues that I see that can inhibit someone from doing the practices. The first is just not quite understanding how to do the practices in the mind which I am working on clarifying. And the other issue is more of once you learn the basics of the strategies on how to do them just having enough skill of mind and power of mind to do the exercise effectively. So for example, the strategy that I said helps people with depression requires the least amount of power of the mind. That practice is ‘non-resistance’. The way that I would describe the ‘non-resistance’ practice is that often times when someone is depressed it can be extraordinarily tiring to constantly resist ones negative emotions. So I quite like the practice because instead of constantly providing more resistance to no avail, you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

also, I am working on a concise step by step guide now for the practice

thanks for your question.

I think you might be off base with depression, which is a condition that has biological roots. Ordinary depression (as in “feeling down”) is not the same. But clinical depression is a serious illness; it’s not a matter of non-resistance, to coin a phrase, resistance is futile. I have a cousin who experiences bouts of clinical depression and simply telling her not to resist it would be like telling somebody caught in a burning house not resist the flames. I get what you’re aiming at, but with things that have medical roots there is more to consider.

On a cautionary note, it should be stated clearly that this practice and methodology is not for everyone, and cannot be expected to mitigate or negate medical conditions that affect emotional stability.  It would be highly irresponsible, and possibly dangerous, to think that is possible or even probable.

kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM

...you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

What background data do you have to support this statement?

The best evidence that I can give you is to just explain it out rationally.

This strategy might give you relief If it feels tiring to constantly grind and push oneself to do little things. The strategy can also be thought of as ‘letting go’ for a period of time. First, would you agree that it still requires focus and attention to continuously keep the intention to ‘let go’/‘not resist’ emotion for a period of time? If you feel better while doing this practice then this can also be thought of as directing your mind accurately enough to feel better. In other words it takes accuracy to direct your mind in a way that causes you to feel better. The strategies that I have thought of give the user a different way to direct emotions to maximize feeling better(emotionally satisfied). Remember that the goal is to feel better while doing this practice.

I hope this explains why I argue that these practices help the user feel better and increase intelligence at the same time thus knocking out two birds with one stone.

It does not.  There are real risks when people with medical conditions try to treat them with ‘positive thinking’.
It is extremely irresponsible for you to suggest that any method other than prescribed medication and professional medical treatment can help people with depression.  You need more qualifications and hard data before you should even begin to suggest your ‘method’ can help people with similar medical conditions.  You could, ultimately, be responsible for someone’s life if that person foregoes medical advice and tries your method instead.

Shouldn’t we still keep an open dialogue? What do you suggest I should do?

I suggest you consult medical professionals and get their buy-in before you bill your methods as a viable treatment or practice.  If a person with bi-polar disorder, clinical depression or other medically treated condition adopts your methods and, as a result, harms themselves, or others, you bear responsibility for that by billing your method as a possible treatment for their ailment. 

Note that my reading of your words in this thread suggests, to me, that you lack knowledge of, and in-depth understanding of the effects of clinical disorders that affect one’s emotional state.

I didn’t know that there were rules and regulations regarding this kind of thing. My initial reaction was to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Also, I believe in working things out through free speech. And I guess people give their opinions on how to live a better life all the time on the internet. So I am wondering what the difference between that is and my ideas.

The difference is that you’re talking about depression, and managing it in a way that might be contrary to medical advice provided for their treatment.  This possibility has real and imminent risks for that patient.

No one is curtailing your freedom of speach here.  I’m just pointing out some responsibilities you may be overlooking.

If you choose to overlook those risks, that is on you.  If you choose to acknowledge those risks and work to mitigate them, it serves to illustrate your commitment to the wellbeing of all of your potential adherents.

Right,  I am not a professional and I very much agree with you now that I have thought about this.

I wonder what you think about just discussing the bare objective rationality behind the ideas.

 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  7135
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
24 June 2019 18:58
 
kevergar - 24 June 2019 04:25 PM
Jefe - 24 June 2019 02:37 PM
kevergar - 24 June 2019 01:50 PM
Jefe - 24 June 2019 10:57 AM
kevergar - 24 June 2019 10:14 AM
Jefe - 23 June 2019 10:46 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 07:38 PM
Jefe - 23 June 2019 04:50 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 04:44 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 01:25 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 12:09 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 09:56 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 08:32 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 08:26 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 07:09 PM

burt, I’m not getting across to you. I also believe it is especially important for people to have the ability to direct their own emotions to their own liking.

And this really is not even close to affirmations, you’ll have to add more detail to why you have come to that conclusion based off what I have written.

But most people, most of the time don’t have the ability to direct their emotions, and telling them they should do so is very different from showing them (perhaps through an extended training program). Cat’s meditation work, for example, helps as a means for learning this ability.

All of the strategies that I wrote about in my writing were specifically designed to help train people to direct their emotions more effectively. So that they can feel better also.

That’s the difference between describing the taste of vanilla ice cream and teaching somebody how to make it so they can enjoy the taste as well. In legitimate schools devoted to this sort of thing there are set curricula involving not only intellectual instructions, but physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual exercises that produce the capacities to actually produce experiences, not just hear somebody tell about them.

The paper that I wrote covers all of the components needed to do the practice. It is an instruction that covers the needed ideas to participate. Please read my paper more comprehensively or be more descriptive based on what I have written to prove your point.

You can tell people to “use the force of their mind to guide the stream of emotions, with the intention of feeling well,” but how do you get them to actually develop the capacity to do this, other than telling them it takes effort so go ahead and fake it until you make it. For example, there is an exercise routine that was prescribed for me about 40 years ago, which I carried out over a 3 week period, and periodically repeat, that involves developing the ability to separate the mind into five different but simultaneous focuses of attention. One effect of this exercise is precisely the opposite of “using force,” it opens the mind to recognition of content to the point that no force at all is required, rather one simply recognizes attractions and aversions and selects a point of attention. The point being that this wasn’t a matter of me being told to control my mind in a certain way, rather there was a prescribed set of exercises (physical, emotional, mental) to carry out that had little to do directly with controlling the mind but which built the underlying capacities required.

On the other hand, you might want to explore the work of Antonio Damasio on emotion, and the relationship between emotions and feelings.

Okay I think it is important to keep in mind Jordan Peterson’s advice on incremental training. The different strategies vary in difficulty, but perhaps it is not so complicated as you are imagining. So there are really two issues that I see that can inhibit someone from doing the practices. The first is just not quite understanding how to do the practices in the mind which I am working on clarifying. And the other issue is more of once you learn the basics of the strategies on how to do them just having enough skill of mind and power of mind to do the exercise effectively. So for example, the strategy that I said helps people with depression requires the least amount of power of the mind. That practice is ‘non-resistance’. The way that I would describe the ‘non-resistance’ practice is that often times when someone is depressed it can be extraordinarily tiring to constantly resist ones negative emotions. So I quite like the practice because instead of constantly providing more resistance to no avail, you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

also, I am working on a concise step by step guide now for the practice

thanks for your question.

I think you might be off base with depression, which is a condition that has biological roots. Ordinary depression (as in “feeling down”) is not the same. But clinical depression is a serious illness; it’s not a matter of non-resistance, to coin a phrase, resistance is futile. I have a cousin who experiences bouts of clinical depression and simply telling her not to resist it would be like telling somebody caught in a burning house not resist the flames. I get what you’re aiming at, but with things that have medical roots there is more to consider.

On a cautionary note, it should be stated clearly that this practice and methodology is not for everyone, and cannot be expected to mitigate or negate medical conditions that affect emotional stability.  It would be highly irresponsible, and possibly dangerous, to think that is possible or even probable.

kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM

...you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

What background data do you have to support this statement?

The best evidence that I can give you is to just explain it out rationally.

This strategy might give you relief If it feels tiring to constantly grind and push oneself to do little things. The strategy can also be thought of as ‘letting go’ for a period of time. First, would you agree that it still requires focus and attention to continuously keep the intention to ‘let go’/‘not resist’ emotion for a period of time? If you feel better while doing this practice then this can also be thought of as directing your mind accurately enough to feel better. In other words it takes accuracy to direct your mind in a way that causes you to feel better. The strategies that I have thought of give the user a different way to direct emotions to maximize feeling better(emotionally satisfied). Remember that the goal is to feel better while doing this practice.

I hope this explains why I argue that these practices help the user feel better and increase intelligence at the same time thus knocking out two birds with one stone.

It does not.  There are real risks when people with medical conditions try to treat them with ‘positive thinking’.
It is extremely irresponsible for you to suggest that any method other than prescribed medication and professional medical treatment can help people with depression.  You need more qualifications and hard data before you should even begin to suggest your ‘method’ can help people with similar medical conditions.  You could, ultimately, be responsible for someone’s life if that person foregoes medical advice and tries your method instead.

Shouldn’t we still keep an open dialogue? What do you suggest I should do?

I suggest you consult medical professionals and get their buy-in before you bill your methods as a viable treatment or practice.  If a person with bi-polar disorder, clinical depression or other medically treated condition adopts your methods and, as a result, harms themselves, or others, you bear responsibility for that by billing your method as a possible treatment for their ailment. 

Note that my reading of your words in this thread suggests, to me, that you lack knowledge of, and in-depth understanding of the effects of clinical disorders that affect one’s emotional state.

I didn’t know that there were rules and regulations regarding this kind of thing. My initial reaction was to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Also, I believe in working things out through free speech. And I guess people give their opinions on how to live a better life all the time on the internet. So I am wondering what the difference between that is and my ideas.

The difference is that you’re talking about depression, and managing it in a way that might be contrary to medical advice provided for their treatment.  This possibility has real and imminent risks for that patient.

No one is curtailing your freedom of speach here.  I’m just pointing out some responsibilities you may be overlooking.

If you choose to overlook those risks, that is on you.  If you choose to acknowledge those risks and work to mitigate them, it serves to illustrate your commitment to the wellbeing of all of your potential adherents.

Right,  I am not a professional and I very much agree with you now that I have thought about this.

I wonder what you think about just discussing the bare objective rationality behind the ideas.

Frankly, I’m skeptical.

 
 
kevergar
 
Avatar
 
 
kevergar
Total Posts:  32
Joined  21-06-2019
 
 
 
24 June 2019 19:02
 
Jefe - 24 June 2019 06:58 PM
kevergar - 24 June 2019 04:25 PM
Jefe - 24 June 2019 02:37 PM
kevergar - 24 June 2019 01:50 PM
Jefe - 24 June 2019 10:57 AM
kevergar - 24 June 2019 10:14 AM
Jefe - 23 June 2019 10:46 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 07:38 PM
Jefe - 23 June 2019 04:50 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 04:44 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM
burt - 23 June 2019 01:25 PM
kevergar - 23 June 2019 12:09 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 09:56 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 08:32 PM
burt - 22 June 2019 08:26 PM
kevergar - 22 June 2019 07:09 PM

burt, I’m not getting across to you. I also believe it is especially important for people to have the ability to direct their own emotions to their own liking.

And this really is not even close to affirmations, you’ll have to add more detail to why you have come to that conclusion based off what I have written.

But most people, most of the time don’t have the ability to direct their emotions, and telling them they should do so is very different from showing them (perhaps through an extended training program). Cat’s meditation work, for example, helps as a means for learning this ability.

All of the strategies that I wrote about in my writing were specifically designed to help train people to direct their emotions more effectively. So that they can feel better also.

That’s the difference between describing the taste of vanilla ice cream and teaching somebody how to make it so they can enjoy the taste as well. In legitimate schools devoted to this sort of thing there are set curricula involving not only intellectual instructions, but physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual exercises that produce the capacities to actually produce experiences, not just hear somebody tell about them.

The paper that I wrote covers all of the components needed to do the practice. It is an instruction that covers the needed ideas to participate. Please read my paper more comprehensively or be more descriptive based on what I have written to prove your point.

You can tell people to “use the force of their mind to guide the stream of emotions, with the intention of feeling well,” but how do you get them to actually develop the capacity to do this, other than telling them it takes effort so go ahead and fake it until you make it. For example, there is an exercise routine that was prescribed for me about 40 years ago, which I carried out over a 3 week period, and periodically repeat, that involves developing the ability to separate the mind into five different but simultaneous focuses of attention. One effect of this exercise is precisely the opposite of “using force,” it opens the mind to recognition of content to the point that no force at all is required, rather one simply recognizes attractions and aversions and selects a point of attention. The point being that this wasn’t a matter of me being told to control my mind in a certain way, rather there was a prescribed set of exercises (physical, emotional, mental) to carry out that had little to do directly with controlling the mind but which built the underlying capacities required.

On the other hand, you might want to explore the work of Antonio Damasio on emotion, and the relationship between emotions and feelings.

Okay I think it is important to keep in mind Jordan Peterson’s advice on incremental training. The different strategies vary in difficulty, but perhaps it is not so complicated as you are imagining. So there are really two issues that I see that can inhibit someone from doing the practices. The first is just not quite understanding how to do the practices in the mind which I am working on clarifying. And the other issue is more of once you learn the basics of the strategies on how to do them just having enough skill of mind and power of mind to do the exercise effectively. So for example, the strategy that I said helps people with depression requires the least amount of power of the mind. That practice is ‘non-resistance’. The way that I would describe the ‘non-resistance’ practice is that often times when someone is depressed it can be extraordinarily tiring to constantly resist ones negative emotions. So I quite like the practice because instead of constantly providing more resistance to no avail, you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

also, I am working on a concise step by step guide now for the practice

thanks for your question.

I think you might be off base with depression, which is a condition that has biological roots. Ordinary depression (as in “feeling down”) is not the same. But clinical depression is a serious illness; it’s not a matter of non-resistance, to coin a phrase, resistance is futile. I have a cousin who experiences bouts of clinical depression and simply telling her not to resist it would be like telling somebody caught in a burning house not resist the flames. I get what you’re aiming at, but with things that have medical roots there is more to consider.

On a cautionary note, it should be stated clearly that this practice and methodology is not for everyone, and cannot be expected to mitigate or negate medical conditions that affect emotional stability.  It would be highly irresponsible, and possibly dangerous, to think that is possible or even probable.

kevergar - 23 June 2019 01:40 PM

...you can actually practice not putting up a resistance and that can actually train the mind and untangle the user from depression.

What background data do you have to support this statement?

The best evidence that I can give you is to just explain it out rationally.

This strategy might give you relief If it feels tiring to constantly grind and push oneself to do little things. The strategy can also be thought of as ‘letting go’ for a period of time. First, would you agree that it still requires focus and attention to continuously keep the intention to ‘let go’/‘not resist’ emotion for a period of time? If you feel better while doing this practice then this can also be thought of as directing your mind accurately enough to feel better. In other words it takes accuracy to direct your mind in a way that causes you to feel better. The strategies that I have thought of give the user a different way to direct emotions to maximize feeling better(emotionally satisfied). Remember that the goal is to feel better while doing this practice.

I hope this explains why I argue that these practices help the user feel better and increase intelligence at the same time thus knocking out two birds with one stone.

It does not.  There are real risks when people with medical conditions try to treat them with ‘positive thinking’.
It is extremely irresponsible for you to suggest that any method other than prescribed medication and professional medical treatment can help people with depression.  You need more qualifications and hard data before you should even begin to suggest your ‘method’ can help people with similar medical conditions.  You could, ultimately, be responsible for someone’s life if that person foregoes medical advice and tries your method instead.

Shouldn’t we still keep an open dialogue? What do you suggest I should do?

I suggest you consult medical professionals and get their buy-in before you bill your methods as a viable treatment or practice.  If a person with bi-polar disorder, clinical depression or other medically treated condition adopts your methods and, as a result, harms themselves, or others, you bear responsibility for that by billing your method as a possible treatment for their ailment. 

Note that my reading of your words in this thread suggests, to me, that you lack knowledge of, and in-depth understanding of the effects of clinical disorders that affect one’s emotional state.

I didn’t know that there were rules and regulations regarding this kind of thing. My initial reaction was to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Also, I believe in working things out through free speech. And I guess people give their opinions on how to live a better life all the time on the internet. So I am wondering what the difference between that is and my ideas.

The difference is that you’re talking about depression, and managing it in a way that might be contrary to medical advice provided for their treatment.  This possibility has real and imminent risks for that patient.

No one is curtailing your freedom of speach here.  I’m just pointing out some responsibilities you may be overlooking.

If you choose to overlook those risks, that is on you.  If you choose to acknowledge those risks and work to mitigate them, it serves to illustrate your commitment to the wellbeing of all of your potential adherents.

Right,  I am not a professional and I very much agree with you now that I have thought about this.

I wonder what you think about just discussing the bare objective rationality behind the ideas.

Frankly, I’m skeptical.

For starters, I am stating that every emotion that is occurring in the mind is basically a force. I believe without a force, you would not feel anything.

 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  7135
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
24 June 2019 19:13
 
kevergar - 24 June 2019 07:02 PM

For starters, I am stating that every emotion that is occurring in the mind is basically a force. I believe without a force, you would not feel anything.

A force?
So no chemistry, no endocrinology, no biology?

Is it a force like in physics, or some kind of external activity?

 
 
kevergar
 
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kevergar
Total Posts:  32
Joined  21-06-2019
 
 
 
24 June 2019 19:16
 
Jefe - 24 June 2019 07:13 PM
kevergar - 24 June 2019 07:02 PM

For starters, I am stating that every emotion that is occurring in the mind is basically a force. I believe without a force, you would not feel anything.

A force?
So no chemistry, no endocrinology, no biology?

Is it a force like in physics, or some kind of external activity?

Like a force in physics, but without like the constant laws because feelings change a lot right

 
kevergar
 
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kevergar
Total Posts:  32
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24 June 2019 19:22
 
kevergar - 24 June 2019 07:16 PM
Jefe - 24 June 2019 07:13 PM
kevergar - 24 June 2019 07:02 PM

For starters, I am stating that every emotion that is occurring in the mind is basically a force. I believe without a force, you would not feel anything.

A force?
So no chemistry, no endocrinology, no biology?

Is it a force like in physics, or some kind of external activity?

Like a force in physics, but without like the constant laws because feelings change a lot right

Well I don’t know if that last part was right about feelings not adhering to constant laws really, I do believe they do, but emotions vary quite a lot

And at least emotions act like a force in the mind

But the other part of my idea is that you can control forces for a benefit. Such as redirecting a stream to get water to a village or something of that sort.

In the same way that you can redirect a force of water you can redirect emotions(forces) in the mind to ones own benefit and there are strategies to do this.

[ Edited: 24 June 2019 20:00 by kevergar]
 
Garret
 
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Garret
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25 June 2019 06:18
 
kevergar - 21 June 2019 07:11 PM

The next strategy is especially helpful for those of us who are dealing with Depression. If you do not feel well enough to put up resistance against your negative feelings directly, then this next practice is for you. What if in your mind you chose to not put up any resistance at all for a time against your negative feelings? For people who have to constantly fight against their negative feelings to do simple things like taking a shower, this practice could help. Few of us realize we can let go in this way of not resisting in any way, and the effects of doing this practice might surprise you. If you begin to practice not resisting and it feels better, then that can be quite powerful. If you begin to feel better consistently while doing this practice you will find a reason to do the practice. Remember it also requires focus to actually set your mind to do the practice of letting go of resistance for a time. So, the theory is that it is possible to also grow the mind at the same time that you are getting your rest from negative feelings and resulting in untangling the mind from depression at the same time.

I have clinical depression.  I have studied psychology at a major university.  I have undergone a lot of treatment for my depression.  While there is a lot about the disease I don’t understand, I also have a lot of knowledge and experience with it.  The first thing that jumps out to me when reading this paragraph is that you don’t understand depression.  Like seriously, you aren’t describing my experience (or the experience I’ve listened described by many, many other people with depression).  You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.

Here’s an analogy:

Me: My car engine isn’t running well, the engine overheats really easily.
You: Have you tried putting ice in the gas tank?  That should help cool it down.

Your advice is clearly and obviously wrong.  It is clear that you don’t understand the subject, and your advice should be disregarded until clear evidence is presented of it’s efficacy.  And by evidence I don’t mean you just repeating it, or saying that it requires practice, or I should reread your advice.  None of that is evidence.  Even a personal testimony or two would not be enough for me to take this seriously.

 
kevergar
 
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kevergar
Total Posts:  32
Joined  21-06-2019
 
 
 
25 June 2019 10:01
 
Garret - 25 June 2019 06:18 AM
kevergar - 21 June 2019 07:11 PM

The next strategy is especially helpful for those of us who are dealing with Depression. If you do not feel well enough to put up resistance against your negative feelings directly, then this next practice is for you. What if in your mind you chose to not put up any resistance at all for a time against your negative feelings? For people who have to constantly fight against their negative feelings to do simple things like taking a shower, this practice could help. Few of us realize we can let go in this way of not resisting in any way, and the effects of doing this practice might surprise you. If you begin to practice not resisting and it feels better, then that can be quite powerful. If you begin to feel better consistently while doing this practice you will find a reason to do the practice. Remember it also requires focus to actually set your mind to do the practice of letting go of resistance for a time. So, the theory is that it is possible to also grow the mind at the same time that you are getting your rest from negative feelings and resulting in untangling the mind from depression at the same time.

I have clinical depression.  I have studied psychology at a major university.  I have undergone a lot of treatment for my depression.  While there is a lot about the disease I don’t understand, I also have a lot of knowledge and experience with it.  The first thing that jumps out to me when reading this paragraph is that you don’t understand depression.  Like seriously, you aren’t describing my experience (or the experience I’ve listened described by many, many other people with depression).  You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.

Here’s an analogy:

Me: My car engine isn’t running well, the engine overheats really easily.
You: Have you tried putting ice in the gas tank?  That should help cool it down.

Your advice is clearly and obviously wrong.  It is clear that you don’t understand the subject, and your advice should be disregarded until clear evidence is presented of it’s efficacy.  And by evidence I don’t mean you just repeating it, or saying that it requires practice, or I should reread your advice.  None of that is evidence.  Even a personal testimony or two would not be enough for me to take this seriously.

You don’t have to take it seriously. I am not a professional.

 
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