‹ First  < 9 10 11 12 13 > 
 
   
 

Is your religion mythology?

 
MrRon
 
Avatar
 
 
MrRon
Total Posts:  1861
Joined  14-08-2008
 
 
 
15 July 2019 14:01
 
EN - 15 July 2019 10:32 AM
MrRon - 15 July 2019 09:41 AM

So then how is that any different from random chance?  How can we tell if we’re living in a universe with no God and the occasional “answered” prayer, or a universe with a God that sometimes answers prayers (and only the type of prayers that have plausible natural explanations)?

If a person answers “yes”, “no” or “maybe”, is that random chance?

No, because the person is real and they can give a definite answer one way or the other. Once they respond, you KNOW what to expect. With a God, you DON’T know what to expect. ANY outcome can be ascribed to God. If I pray to God in hopes of getting a job that I interviewed for, and then I get that job, how do you know if God forced the outcome or if I was just the best candidate for the job and got the offer on my own? If there is no way to tell the difference, then we have no grounds to ever make a claim that prayer works. It’s that simple. 

You want rational certainty and God is not playing that game. It’s all based on faith, which is based on personal revelation. That’s generally the most you are going to get, unless you are Mario and sit at the right hand of God.

So rationality is not in God’s playbook. Interesting. You would think the omniscient and omnipotent creator of the universe would be all about rationality and accountability. But instead he plays hide and seek and values a faulty epistemology. Odd.

 

MrRon - 15 July 2019 09:41 AM

- If your child is suffering intensely in some way, and you KNOW they are suffering, and you could so easily alleviate that suffering with no skin off your back, would you just let your child suffer indefinitely until they pleaded for your help?

- Is ALL faith rational in your opinion?

 

God views things from the eternal perspective. There is no “indefinite” suffering - it all has a limit which God knows. Compared to eternity, any suffering we have in this life essentially fades to insignificance. That may be problematic for you, from your perspective, but it’s not for God from his perspective. Gain the eternal perspective and you may find that it changes your view. A child scrapes his knee - he screams and cries like it’s the end of the world.  You know it will get better pretty soon.  You have a different perspective. Same with God.

That still doesn’t explain why he heals some, but not others in this life.

Christian faith, in my opinion, is arational. It is not based on scientific evidence and rational processes, but upon revelation.  I suppose some kinds of faith can be rational.  If you trust someone because they have always been true to their word, that’s probably rational.

But what do you make of the various and contradictory religious faiths in the world? They can’t all be right. And the convictions of the adherents are just as strong as yours. How do you reconcile that? 

MrRon - 15 July 2019 09:41 AM

But don’t you find it odd that, amongst Christians through the ages, there are MANY accounts of miraculous healings of everything from things like headaches to back pain to deafness to terminal cancer, yet not a SINGLE case of an amputee healing? In fact, if anything, healing an amputee is less of an intervention than curing someone who will likely die from their cancer.

 

No, I don’t find it odd. That would require more faith than I have, and I suspect that’s about the same for most Christians. Check with Mario.

Wait, so your argument is that, despite people having enough faith to be cured of deadly cancers (so Christians would claim), NOBODY has ever had enough faith to get cured of a missing limb?? Is that REALLY your argument?? God has a faith “scale” that he works off of? Come on EN, this is starting to border on silliness.

MrRon - 15 July 2019 09:41 AM

Isn’t this equivalent to the parent who deprives their starving child of food because they’re just not pleading enough, or in the right way? Isn’t this victim-blaming? It’s YOUR fault EN, that God won’t heal anything more substantial than headaches for you.

No. It’s a challenge to have more faith.  Again, the prayer will be answered eventually, even if in the next life. But here God would like us to learn faith.  In my opinion, of course.

But which faith to learn? The Muslim faith? The Hindu faith? The Mormon faith? Some other faith? Does it even matter?

Enjoy your vacation!  grin

Ron

 
proximacentauri
 
Avatar
 
 
proximacentauri
Total Posts:  324
Joined  07-02-2017
 
 
 
16 July 2019 13:39
 

I’ve come to a greater understanding of the depth of EN’s belief by reading this thread. On one hand, his version of Christianity is moderated well beyond anything I practiced as a Christian. On the other, I see glimpses of tradition in what he has intimated. And I suspect he holds absolute certainty in his own personal version of belief - including personal revelation - even though I doubt he’d ever admit to it.

Be that as it may, the highly likely probability that EN’s personal beliefs are mythical is not what concerns me. It’s the bigger picture threat to humanity caused by nuclear armed governments that have a susceptibility to influence from mythical belief systems, that is my biggest concern. And that of course includes the good ole US of A. Our species has come so far in our knowledge that it would be a shame to throw it all away now due to our inability to shed mythical belief systems that continue to threaten our survival.

 
Garret
 
Avatar
 
 
Garret
Total Posts:  491
Joined  16-01-2019
 
 
 
16 July 2019 14:56
 

I think you can see it in the US climate change denial as well.  Some of that is self-interested economics (oil producers protecting profits), but there’s a segment of the population that has a deep distrust of science and scientists.  Certain opportunists definitely took advantage of this and have tied their interest together in the Republican party.  Death by climate change won’t be as dramatic as nuclear war, but it is still a threat to our survival.

 
unsmoked
 
Avatar
 
 
unsmoked
Total Posts:  8633
Joined  20-02-2006
 
 
 
17 July 2019 12:45
 
Garret - 16 July 2019 02:56 PM

I think you can see it in the US climate change denial as well.  Some of that is self-interested economics (oil producers protecting profits), but there’s a segment of the population that has a deep distrust of science and scientists.  Certain opportunists definitely took advantage of this and have tied their interest together in the Republican party.  Death by climate change won’t be as dramatic as nuclear war, but it is still a threat to our survival.

We can see Trump’s ambition when we see the authoritarian leaders he admires.  We can see how he labels his critics ‘enemies of the people,’ and works up his supporters with infantile, divisive chants.  If you don’t agree with him you hate American and should go back where you came from?  How far will we go down this road before it’s too late to turn back? 
 
In the 1930’s, how long did it take Germany to slide into the abyss?  https://www.facinghistory.org/holocaust-and-human-behavior/chapter-6/heil-hitler-lessons-daily-life

 

 

 
 
Garret
 
Avatar
 
 
Garret
Total Posts:  491
Joined  16-01-2019
 
 
 
17 July 2019 15:30
 

That to me seems like a completely unrelated topic to the anti-science epistemology advocated by some religious people.

If one wanted to take and hold power, one should emulate and admire authoritarian leaders.  Like… that’s actually epistemologically sound, assuming that we aren’t adding in any sort of ethical or moral constraints.

Ece Temelkuran has a decent book documenting the rise of authoritarianism in Turkey over the past 20 years which would apply to that, but I think this is a digression from the thread’s topic.

 
bbearren
 
Avatar
 
 
bbearren
Total Posts:  3808
Joined  20-11-2013
 
 
 
28 July 2019 08:49
 
unsmoked - 26 June 2019 11:54 AM

Is your religion mythology?

I don’t have a religion; I have faith.

My faith is not the result of reading books; it is not based on mythology.

I don’t believe in The God of the Atheists, a supposed supernatural being who grants wishes.

The god in whom I believe is nature to nature’s fullest extent (whether or not you approve of that phraseology is immaterial), and is in no way supernatural.

 
 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  7118
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
28 July 2019 09:01
 
bbearren - 28 July 2019 08:49 AM

The god in whom I believe is nature to nature’s fullest extent (whether or not you approve of that phraseology is immaterial), and is in no way supernatural.

Quick question:  Is there ever any nature that is not ‘nature to nature’s fullest extent’?

Asking for clarity.

 
 
Garret
 
Avatar
 
 
Garret
Total Posts:  491
Joined  16-01-2019
 
 
 
28 July 2019 09:46
 
bbearren - 28 July 2019 08:49 AM
unsmoked - 26 June 2019 11:54 AM

Is your religion mythology?

I don’t have a religion; I have faith.

My faith is not the result of reading books; it is not based on mythology.

I don’t believe in The God of the Atheists, a supposed supernatural being who grants wishes.

The god in whom I believe is nature to nature’s fullest extent (whether or not you approve of that phraseology is immaterial), and is in no way supernatural.

There is no “God of the Atheists”.  This is literally a contradiction in terms, and suggests to me that you don’t understand atheism.

I don’t have a “god”.  Religious people have gods.  To date, I have found the evidence that people put forward for their claims of a god to be unconvincing.

To be honest, your definition of “god” seems to be an attempt to just rename all of existence itself as being “god”, and I don’t see how that is useful, informative, or provides us ability to understand existence better.  I would actually consider it to be the opposite of those things by using confusing anthropomorphic language that implies consciousness that has not been demonstrated.

 
bbearren
 
Avatar
 
 
bbearren
Total Posts:  3808
Joined  20-11-2013
 
 
 
28 July 2019 10:12
 
Jefe - 28 July 2019 09:01 AM
bbearren - 28 July 2019 08:49 AM

The god in whom I believe is nature to nature’s fullest extent (whether or not you approve of that phraseology is immaterial), and is in no way supernatural.

Quick question:  Is there ever any nature that is not ‘nature to nature’s fullest extent’?

Asking for clarity.

I have my reasons for using the phrase.  I presume by your question that you are in the group that does not approve of that phraseology.  As stated, such approval/disapproval is immaterial to my reasons for using the phrase.

I’m not proselytizing.  I’m only talking about my faith, not yours.

 
 
nonverbal
 
Avatar
 
 
nonverbal
Total Posts:  1807
Joined  31-10-2015
 
 
 
28 July 2019 10:56
 
bbearren - 28 July 2019 10:12 AM
Jefe - 28 July 2019 09:01 AM
bbearren - 28 July 2019 08:49 AM

The god in whom I believe is nature to nature’s fullest extent (whether or not you approve of that phraseology is immaterial), and is in no way supernatural.

Quick question:  Is there ever any nature that is not ‘nature to nature’s fullest extent’?

Asking for clarity.

I have my reasons for using the phrase.  I presume by your question that you are in the group that does not approve of that phraseology.  As stated, such approval/disapproval is immaterial to my reasons for using the phrase.

I’m not proselytizing.  I’m only talking about my faith, not yours.

I’m confused here. You do realize that “nature to nature’s fullest extent” explains nothing?—so why not just say nothing about the matter? Yet you don’t say nothing, and you simultaneously don’t say something. Are you by any chance talking to God, who might potentially understand your subtlety?

 

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
Avatar
 
 
Nhoj Morley
Total Posts:  6359
Joined  22-02-2005
 
 
 
28 July 2019 11:09
 

Forays into the Owl Enigma should take place in those threads intended for that purpose.

After extensive research and with a consensus from all the participants, it is officially a thread derailment.

 
 
nonverbal
 
Avatar
 
 
nonverbal
Total Posts:  1807
Joined  31-10-2015
 
 
 
28 July 2019 11:41
 
Nhoj Morley - 28 July 2019 11:09 AM

Forays into the Owl Enigma should take place in those threads intended for that purpose.

After extensive research and with a consensus from all the participants, it is officially a thread derailment.

Good choice, Nhoj. On the other hand, threads these days seem to die fairly quickly, and once an actual conversation ends, it ends.

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
Avatar
 
 
Nhoj Morley
Total Posts:  6359
Joined  22-02-2005
 
 
 
28 July 2019 11:45
 

Let’s not dance on the graves.

 
 
nonverbal
 
Avatar
 
 
nonverbal
Total Posts:  1807
Joined  31-10-2015
 
 
 
28 July 2019 11:54
 

Graves? You take this place pretty seriously, don’t you?

 
 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  7118
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
28 July 2019 13:16
 
bbearren - 28 July 2019 10:12 AM
Jefe - 28 July 2019 09:01 AM
bbearren - 28 July 2019 08:49 AM

The god in whom I believe is nature to nature’s fullest extent (whether or not you approve of that phraseology is immaterial), and is in no way supernatural.

Quick question:  Is there ever any nature that is not ‘nature to nature’s fullest extent’?

Asking for clarity.

I have my reasons for using the phrase.  I presume by your question that you are in the group that does not approve of that phraseology.  As stated, such approval/disapproval is immaterial to my reasons for using the phrase.

I’m not proselytizing.  I’m only talking about my faith, not yours.

I neither approve, nor disapprove.  I merely seek clarity.

 

 
 
‹ First  < 9 10 11 12 13 >