1 2 3 > 
 
   
 

Rise of Ambiguity - Breakout Thread

 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  6999
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
06 July 2019 09:47
 
icehorse - 06 July 2019 09:12 AM
Jefe - 06 July 2019 09:08 AM
icehorse - 06 July 2019 09:02 AM
Jefe - 06 July 2019 08:57 AM

Along with increased ambiguity is the delusional idea that all opinions are of equal or similar value.

So the ambiguous tweet that drifts towards fallacious single-cause-ism, may also be considered as relevant as an expert and detailed study of a subject.
The Anti-vax movement is a great example of this at work.  Decades of medical research and study tossed out in favour of google-esque ‘research’ of opinion-piece articles and debunked fraudulent figureheads.  Or the ‘toxins’ meme permeating new-age-diet articles.

A bit of a tangent (maybe?) is that the question of vaccinations has become a false dilemma. My take is that the US ought to trim its recommended vaccination schedule by about 20-25%. That opinion tends to have me cast as an anti-vaxxer.  wink

(tangent continued) My question is how did you come by this opinion, and does it line up with medical statistics and projections.

If you just intuited it, that’s one thing, but if you have the medical chops to back it up, that is quite another.
Something tells me you don’t personally have the medical background in immunology, but if you could present facts that support your position, then those data should be presented somewhere….  (not here, this place is close to the last place data would be gathered from…)

Briefly, our health care isn’t as good as Europe’s and their schedule is about 75-80% of ours.

Your heathcare is deficient for a lot of different reasons. 

icehorse - 06 July 2019 09:12 AM

Second, we act as though every disease on our schedule is equally seriousness, and they aren’t all equally serious.

Which ones are un-serious enough to remove from the schedule?

icehorse - 06 July 2019 09:12 AM

Third, is that a standard you hold yourself to? E.g., are you unwilling to weigh in on defense spending, or economic policies, or…?

I think you are misreading something here.  I don’t understand the comment.

 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7486
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
06 July 2019 14:28
 

Hey Jefe,

thanks for the “breakout thread” !

Yes, our healthcare is deficient for a lot of reasons. And europe’s is probably better for a lot of reasons.

Here’s an article that compares European schedules to the USs. It’s also interesting to me that we vaccinate everyone for diseases that kill so few.

vax schedules

 
 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  6999
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
06 July 2019 18:30
 
icehorse - 06 July 2019 02:28 PM

Hey Jefe,

thanks for the “breakout thread” !

Yes, our healthcare is deficient for a lot of reasons. And europe’s is probably better for a lot of reasons.

Here’s an article that compares European schedules to the USs. It’s also interesting to me that we vaccinate everyone for diseases that kill so few.

vax schedules

So the main outlier is chicken-pox. Which has its fair share of dangerous complications:

https://www.cdc.gov/chickenpox/about/complications.html
Serious complications from chickenpox include:

Bacterial infections of the skin and soft tissues in children, including Group A streptococcal infections
Infection of the lungs (pneumonia)
Infection or inflammation of the brain (encephalitis, cerebellar ataxia)
Bleeding problems (hemorrhagic complications)
Bloodstream infections (sepsis)
Dehydration
Some people with serious complications from chickenpox can become so sick that they need to be hospitalized. Chickenpox can also cause death.

Deaths are very rare now due to the vaccine program. However, some deaths from chickenpox continue to occur in healthy, unvaccinated children and adults. In the past, many of the healthy adults who died from chickenpox contracted the disease from their unvaccinated children.

From your article:

So the big difference in most European immunization schedules is a lack of a chicken pox vaccine and targeted vaccination against hepatitis A and hepatitis B, while we use universal immunization programs against these vaccine-preventable infections after previous failed attempts at targeted vaccination campaigns.

This makes sense, since:

Hepatitis A is not endemic in most countries in Europe
Hepatitis B is often found in very well-defined risk groups in many countries in Europe

So there really isn’t that much difference, apart from the hep vaccines which are locale specific and the chicken-pox vaccine which can have dangerous complications on its own, and can lead to death.  Also can be a precursor for shingles in later life.

Not sure where the trimming you indicate should occur. 
Please specify which specific immunizations you want to trim out.

[ Edited: 06 July 2019 18:35 by Jefe]
 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7486
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
07 July 2019 09:36
 

Hey Jefe,

First an apology. I should not have given you that link with first doing a more thorough read. My bad, 100%

Okay, here’s a link the the world health organization’s pages that detail each countries vax schedules:

WHO - vax schedules

Just doing some counting by hand, I got the following rough totals:

US = 63
germany = 41
france = 36
UK = 35

(I counted 6 tetanus shots in a lifetime across the board)

==

Again, I get why the anti-vaxxers aren’t credible. But at the other end of the discussion, I frankly do NOT get why people think that in US healthcare - an industry fraught with profiteering and mediocre results - we somehow imagine that on the topic of vaccination schedules, they are squeaky clean?

 
 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  6999
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
07 July 2019 09:48
 
icehorse - 07 July 2019 09:36 AM

Hey Jefe,

First an apology. I should not have given you that link with first doing a more thorough read. My bad, 100%

Okay, here’s a link the the world health organization’s pages that detail each countries vax schedules:

WHO - vax schedules

Just doing some counting by hand, I got the following rough totals:

US = 63
germany = 41
france = 36
UK = 35

(I counted 6 tetanus shots in a lifetime across the board)

==

Again, I get why the anti-vaxxers aren’t credible. But at the other end of the discussion, I frankly do NOT get why people think that in US healthcare - an industry fraught with profiteering and mediocre results - we somehow imagine that on the topic of vaccination schedules, they are squeaky clean?


Please list specifically the vaccinations you would like trimmed.

 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7486
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
07 July 2019 09:58
 

Jefe:

Please list specifically the vaccinations you would like trimmed.

You’re assigning to me expertise I never claimed I had. All I did was count the number of vaccines each of those 4 countries recommend. Obviously healthcare is an extremely complex topic, and I’m happy to grant you that approaches should vary from region to region. But zooming out, we can see that the US system is mediocre at best, and that we give a lot more vaccinations. On the face of it, it’s hard to justify those extra vaccines, given our results.

I’ll ask you again, why do we imagine that an otherwise flawed industry is somehow spot on in this one regard?

 
 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  6999
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
07 July 2019 10:32
 

Ok, using your link, I did some of your homework for you. 
(I can’t tell from your posting whether you’ve done this part or not, or are simply reacting to the number of vaccinations listed…)

I looked at the US, Germany and France.

Here are the vaccines that do not occur in more than one of the three countries:

USA

DT Tetanus and diphtheria toxoid childrens’ dose 2, 4, 6, +15 months;  Yes

HepA_Pediatric Hepatitis A pediatric dose vaccine 12, +18 months;  Yes

Hib Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccine 2, 4, 6, +12 months;  Yes

MenACWY-135 conj Meningococcal ACWY-135 conjugate vaccine >11, >16 years;  Yes and recommended at M2 or M9 (depending on vaccine) for infants with certain high-risk conditions

MenB   >10 years; (x3)  Yes recommended at +Y10 for those with certain high-risk conditions; recommended +Y16 to Y23 for those who desire immunity
———————————————————————————————

France
BCG Bacille Calmette-Guérin vaccine birth;  No B/M1/M2: children born in Guyanna and Mayotte (B), infant at risk (M1-M2)

MenC_conj Meningococcal C conjugate vaccine 5, 12 months;  Yes mandatory for children born from january 1st 2018 onwrds,catch-up 1 dose from 1 year to 24years included

YF Yellow fever vaccine 9 months, 6 years;  No French Guyana only; mandatory; one dose for children above 2 years and adults
—————————————————————————————-

Germany
MenC_conj Meningococcal C conjugate vaccine 11-23 months;  Yes

TdaPIPV Tetanus and diphtheria toxoid with acellular pertussis and IPV vaccines 5-7, 9-17 years;  Yes


A few notes:
Each country seems to treat meningitis a bit differently, but I think Meningitis is a necessary vaccination.

France has regional vaccinations for French Guyana and Mayotte.

Germany and the US treat tetanus and diptheria differently, but still treat it.

The US has a bunch of different Tetanus and Diphtheria vaccines listed, with other vaccines mixed in.  I’m not sure if they are chosen based on specific treatment, locales, or doctor preferences.  I’m NOT a doctor, so I can’t say if there is a good reason to list all these different vaccines - or whether they are just a group of similar treatments from which the best regional or situational vaccine is chosen.

Some of the vaccines only occur in 2 of the three countries.  I can’t tell if this indicates locale specific differences, availability of vaccinations, or what. 

The differences appear to back up the other link. Meaning differences are minor and mostly linked to Hep and Flu vaccines.


So, specifically which of the non-euro vaccines applied in the US do you think we should trim from the schedule?

[ Edited: 07 July 2019 10:49 by Jefe]
 
 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  6999
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
07 July 2019 10:34
 

For reference, here is the list i was using:

United States of America (the)  DT Tetanus and diphtheria toxoid childrens’ dose 2, 4, 6, +15 months;  Yes
  DTaP Diphtheria and tetanus toxoid with acellular pertussis vaccine 2, 4, 6, +15 months; +4 years;  Yes
  DTaPHepBIPV Diphtheria and Tetanus and Pertussis and Hepatitis B and Polio 2, 4, 6 months;  Yes
  DTaPHibIPV Diphtheria and tetanus toxoid with acellular pertussis, Hib and IPV vaccine 2, 4, 6 months; + 15 months;  Yes
  DTaPIPV Diphtheria and tetanus toxoid with acellular pertussis, and IPV vaccine +4 years (x2);  Yes 4th and 5th dose
  HepA_Adult Hepatitis A adult dose vaccine >19 years;  Yes adults with certain medical conditions, other indications, travel, or desire to decrease risk of Hepatitis A not vaccinated as a child
  HepA_Pediatric Hepatitis A pediatric dose vaccine 12, +18 months;  Yes
  HepB_Adult Hepatitis B adult dose vaccine >19 years;  Yes adults with certain medical conditions, other indications, travel, or desire to decrease risk of Hepatitis B not vaccinated as a child
  HepB_Pediatric Hepatitis B pediatric dose vaccine birth; 2, 6 months;  Yes
  Hib Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccine 2, 4, 6, +12 months;  Yes
  HPV Human Papillomavirus vaccine >11 years (x2 doses);  Yes females and males; 2 doses recommended if series started before 15 years of age; 3 doses recommended if series started at 15 years or older
  Influenza_Adult Influenza adult dose vaccine >=18 years;  Yes elderly, adults with chronic conditions, pregnant women, health care workers, and other risk groups
  Influenza_Pediatric Influenza pediatric dose vaccine >=6 months;  Yes and children with chronic conditions
  IPV Inactivated polio vaccine 2, 4, +6 months; +4 years;  Yes
  MenACWY-135 conj Meningococcal ACWY-135 conjugate vaccine >11, >16 years;  Yes and recommended at M2 or M9 (depending on vaccine) for infants with certain high-risk conditions
  MenB   >10 years; (x3)  Yes recommended at +Y10 for those with certain high-risk conditions; recommended +Y16 to Y23 for those who desire immunity
  MMR Measles mumps and rubella vaccine >12 months; >4 years;  Yes
  MMRV Measles, mumps, rubella and varicella vaccine >12 months; >4 years;  Yes alternative to vaccination with separate MMR and varicella vaccines
  Pneumo_conj Pneumococcal conjugate vaccine 2, 4, 6, +12 months;  Yes and recommended for all adults 65Y, and for unvaccinated adolescents and younger adults with certain medical conditions
  Pneumo_ps Pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine 65 years;  Yes and recommended for 2-64Y with certain medical conditions
  Rotavirus Rotavirus vaccine 2, 4, 6 months;  Yes 2 or 3 doses depending on vaccine
  Td Tetanus and diphtheria toxoid for older children / adults vaccube   Yes recommended every 10 year
  Tdap Tetanus and diphtheria toxoids and acellular pertussis vaccine 11 years;  Yes and recommended for adults with no prior TdaP vaccination, for child 7yrs and older with incomplete pertussis vacciantion, pregnant women
  Varicella Varicella vaccine >12 months; >4 years;  Yes
  Zoster Varicella vaccine >50 years;  Yes recommended beginning at age 50 or age 60 depending on vaccine

France:
France BCG Bacille Calmette-Guérin vaccine birth;  No B/M1/M2: children born in Guyanna and Mayotte (B), infant at risk (M1-M2)
  DTaP Diphtheria and tetanus toxoid with acellular pertussis vaccine 6 years;  Yes
  DTaPHibHepBIPV Hexavalent diphtheria, tetanus toxoid with acellular pertussis, Hib, hepatitis B and IPV vaccine 2, 4, 11 months;  Yes Mandatory for childen born from January 1st 2018 onwards
  HepA_Adult Hepatitis A adult dose vaccine First contact; +6-12 months;  No professionnal at risk, adults at risk
  HepB_Adult Hepatitis B adult dose vaccine First contact; +1, +6 months;  Professionnal at risk (health professionnels, fireman, secourists…)
  HPV Human Papillomavirus vaccine 11-13 years (x2 doses);  Yes From September 2018
  Influenza_Adult Influenza adult dose vaccine   Yes elderly, pregnant women, health care workers, adults with chronic disease and other risk groups
  Influenza_Pediatric Influenza pediatric dose vaccine   Yes children with chronic diseases
  IPV Inactivated polio vaccine 2, 4, 11 months; 6, 13, 25 years;  Yes every 20 years for adults
  MenC_conj Meningococcal C conjugate vaccine 5, 12 months;  Yes mandatory for children born from january 1st 2018 onwrds,catch-up 1 dose from 1 year to 24years included
  MMR Measles mumps and rubella vaccine 12, 18 months;  Yes Mandatory for childen born from January 1st 2018 onwards
  Pneumo_conj Pneumococcal conjugate vaccine 2, 4, 11 months;  Yes Mandatory for childen born from January 1st 2018 onwards
  Pneumo_ps Pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine   Yes adults at risk
  Td Tetanus and diphtheria toxoid for older children / adults vaccube 6, 13, 25, 45, 65 years;  Yes every 20 years for adults
  YF Yellow fever vaccine 9 months, 6 years;  No French Guyana only; mandatory; one dose for children above 2 years and adults
  Zoster Varicella vaccine 65-74 years; 


Germany
Germany DTaP Diphtheria and tetanus toxoid with acellular pertussis vaccine 2, 3, 4, 11-14 months;  Yes
  DTaPHibHepBIPV Hexavalent diphtheria, tetanus toxoid with acellular pertussis, Hib, hepatitis B and IPV vaccine 2, 3, 4, 11-14 months;  Yes
  DTaPHibIPV Diphtheria and tetanus toxoid with acellular pertussis, Hib and IPV vaccine 2, 3, 4, 11-14 months;  Yes
  DTaPIPV Diphtheria and tetanus toxoid with acellular pertussis, and IPV vaccine 9-17 years;  Yes
  HepB_Pediatric Hepatitis B pediatric dose vaccine 2, 4, 11-14 months;  Yes
  HPV Human Papillomavirus vaccine 9-14 years (x2);  Yes females (catch-up 14-17 years)
  Influenza_Adult Influenza adult dose vaccine >=60 years;  Yes and adults with chronic illness, pregnant women, health care workers, residents living in long-term care facilities, Haj or other travellers, other risk groups
  Influenza_Pediatric Influenza pediatric dose vaccine   Yes children with chronic illness
  MenC_conj Meningococcal C conjugate vaccine 11-23 months;  Yes
  MMR Measles mumps and rubella vaccine 11-14, 15-23 months;  Yes and adults born after 1970
  MMRV Measles, mumps, rubella and varicella vaccine 15-23 months;  Yes
  Pneumo_conj Pneumococcal conjugate vaccine 2, 4, 11-14 months;  Yes
  Pneumo_ps Pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine >=60 years;  Yes
  Rotavirus Rotavirus vaccine 6, 10, 14 weeks;  Yes 3rd dose depending on vaccine presentation
  Tdap Tetanus and diphtheria toxoids and acellular pertussis vaccine   Yes every 10 years
  TdaPIPV Tetanus and diphtheria toxoid with acellular pertussis and IPV vaccines 5-7, 9-17 years;  Yes
  Varicella Varicella vaccine 11-14, 15-23 months;  Yes

 

 
 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  6999
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
07 July 2019 10:47
 
icehorse - 07 July 2019 09:58 AM

Jefe:

Please list specifically the vaccinations you would like trimmed.

You’re assigning to me expertise I never claimed I had.

You claimed it the moment you chose to opine about it.
If you don’t have the expertise, how could you have an informed opinion.

icehorse - 07 July 2019 09:58 AM

All I did was count the number of vaccines each of those 4 countries recommend.

Seems like a pretty shaky way to come to a conclusion about potentially fatal medical decisions.
Especially without doing some form of actual research.

icehorse - 07 July 2019 09:58 AM

Obviously healthcare is an extremely complex topic, and I’m happy to grant you that approaches should vary from region to region. But zooming out, we can see that the US system is mediocre at best, and that we give a lot more vaccinations.

This is a near textbook example of the statistical fallacy of correlation =/= causation.
In any event, more vaccinations is unlikely to make the US medical system worse. 

icehorse - 07 July 2019 09:58 AM

On the face of it, it’s hard to justify those extra vaccines, given our results.

Since you don’t have the expertise to evaluate vaccinations, and are simply responding to the number of vaccines scheduled, how can you justify this statement as more than dangerous speculation.  Especially since you cannot identify specific vaccinations to trim out of the schedule.  If you want fewer vaccinations, but you can’t identify the ones to trim out of the schedule, aren’t you stuck in an impasse of your own construction? 

icehorse - 07 July 2019 09:58 AM

I’ll ask you again, why do we imagine that an otherwise flawed industry is somehow spot on in this one regard?

That’s your projection.  I never made that claim.  I simply thought you should have good reasoning for your position, rather than conflating some fallacious thinking with dislike for ‘big pharma’.

 
 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  6999
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
07 July 2019 10:55
 

A few more observations:

We’ve discussed this topic several times.
I’ve asked for your research and data several times.
Here we are going around this topic again (3rd or 4th time, I think…), and you’re still ‘just counting the number of vaccines scheduled’ and making a judgement from a self-admitted position of non-expertise.

 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7486
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
07 July 2019 11:05
 

jefe:

I simply thought you should have good reasoning for your position, rather than conflating some fallacious thinking with dislike for ‘big pharma’.

And that’s your projection.

jefe:

Here we are going around this topic again (3rd or 4th time, I think…), and you’re still ‘just counting the number of vaccines scheduled’ and making a judgement from a self-admitted position of non-expertise.

I’m not making a judgment, I’m asking a question.

And yes, we’re going around and around.
And yes, I do appreciate your time on this topic.

 
 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  6999
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
07 July 2019 11:07
 
icehorse - 07 July 2019 11:05 AM

jefe:

I simply thought you should have good reasoning for your position, rather than conflating some fallacious thinking with dislike for ‘big pharma’.

And that’s your projection.

Oh.  I thought that you said something specific about these very things in the thread above.


So, do you want reduced vaccine schedules?

Do you feel that ‘big pharma’ or ‘US Med’ is not handling the US scheduling appropriately?

 

[ Edited: 07 July 2019 11:09 by Jefe]
 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7486
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
07 July 2019 11:22
 
Jefe - 07 July 2019 11:07 AM
icehorse - 07 July 2019 11:05 AM

jefe:

I simply thought you should have good reasoning for your position, rather than conflating some fallacious thinking with dislike for ‘big pharma’.

And that’s your projection.

Oh.  I thought that you said something specific about these very things in the thread above.

So, do you want reduced vaccine schedules?

Do you feel that ‘big pharma’ or ‘US Med’ is not handling the US scheduling appropriately?

I’d like to think that my thoughts concerning “big pharma” are a bit more nuanced smile

For example, while I agree that vaccines are morally correct AND they make good sense for economies, it’s also the case that they represent a BIG financial opportunity. According to the WHO article I link to below, the global vaccine market stats are:

$5B in 2000
$24B in 2013
$100B in 2025

And it’s a profitable business.

global $

 
 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  6999
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
07 July 2019 11:24
 
icehorse - 07 July 2019 11:22 AM
Jefe - 07 July 2019 11:07 AM
icehorse - 07 July 2019 11:05 AM

jefe:

I simply thought you should have good reasoning for your position, rather than conflating some fallacious thinking with dislike for ‘big pharma’.

And that’s your projection.

Oh.  I thought that you said something specific about these very things in the thread above.

So, do you want reduced vaccine schedules?

Do you feel that ‘big pharma’ or ‘US Med’ is not handling the US scheduling appropriately?

I’d like to think that my thoughts concerning “big pharma” are a bit more nuanced smile

For example, while I agree that vaccines are morally correct AND they make good sense for economies, it’s also the case that they represent a BIG financial opportunity. According to the WHO article I link to below, the global vaccine market stats are:

$5B in 2000
$24B in 2013
$100B in 2025

And it’s a profitable business.

global $

Great. I don’t dispute this.
So what is your motivation for questioning the schedules from a position of non-expertise?
Do you wish to reduce the profitability of the industry?

Edit: Projects in my workshop call.  I’ll be on and off throughout the day, but safety demands that I give my power-tools my full attention when operating them, so I will be spotty on responses until later in the evening.

[ Edited: 07 July 2019 11:28 by Jefe]
 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7486
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
07 July 2019 11:48
 

Jefe: [quoteGreat. I don’t dispute this.
So what is your motivation for questioning the schedules from a position of non-expertise?
Do you wish to reduce the profitability of the industry?

Edit: Projects in my workshop call.  I’ll be on and off throughout the day, but safety demands that I give my power-tools my full attention when operating them, so I will be spotty on responses until later in the evening.]

Hmmm - that sounds a bit like GAD talking wink

While I might not have said this explicitly I would have thought that my intentions were clear:

Our systems is rife with profiteering and our results are mediocre. The comparison of vax schedules is just one facet of the bigger system. As a possibly related point, this topic has become so charged and polarized that it seems no criticism of big pharma vaccinators can be raised without risk of being smeared. In this thread, you’ve been fairly civil, but this thread is the exception.

So what I want is a better, more affordable healthcare system. I’m not “anti-profit” as GAD (and now you?) suggest. But profiteering runs in opposition to affordable healthcare.

 
 
GAD
 
Avatar
 
 
GAD
Total Posts:  17472
Joined  15-02-2008
 
 
 
07 July 2019 12:03
 
icehorse - 07 July 2019 11:48 AM

Jefe:

Great. I don’t dispute this.
So what is your motivation for questioning the schedules from a position of non-expertise?
Do you wish to reduce the profitability of the industry?

Edit: Projects in my workshop call.  I’ll be on and off throughout the day, but safety demands that I give my power-tools my full attention when operating them, so I will be spotty on responses until later in the evening.]

Hmmm - that sounds a bit like GAD talking wink

While I might not have said this explicitly I would have thought that my intentions were clear:

Our systems is rife with profiteering and our results are mediocre. The comparison of vax schedules is just one facet of the bigger system. As a possibly related point, this topic has become so charged and polarized that it seems no criticism of big pharma vaccinators can be raised without risk of being smeared. In this thread, you’ve been fairly civil, but this thread is the exception.

So what I want is a better, more affordable healthcare system. I’m not “anti-profit” as GAD (and now you?) suggest. But profiteering runs in opposition to affordable healthcare.

LOL! You are “anti-profit”, why pretend you aren’t. Yes, yes, now the no I’m not, just to much and by people the wrong people, all defined by you.

 
 
 1 2 3 >