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Women’s Soccer

 
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07 July 2019 12:16
 

Congrats to the USA women on their 4th World Cup victory.  Clearly the best in the world.

 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
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07 July 2019 15:22
 

It was a great game.  Now it’s time to cheer them on in their lawsuit against what can only be described as egregious discrimination.  I remember the great skit John Stewart did on it a while back, with the athletes themselves.  As a dedicated fan who would watch them over any men’s game any day, I say it’s about time.

 
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09 July 2019 09:23
 

Four cups is phenomenal for a country with a weak interest in the game.

 
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EN
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09 July 2019 10:01
 

Sports has a way of normalizing otherwise marginalized people. For example, in the 1960’s my school was segregated.  The first attempt at desegregation was to bring over one black student from the black high school.  He was a formidable tailback.  His success on our football team opened the door for the other black students.  Now seeing black and white students in the same school is simply normal.

Megan Rapinoe says that women’s soccer can’t win without gays.  She may be right.  Gay presence in women’s sports is helping to normalize that group.  Once people realize that a particular group helps you win at sports, it’s only a matter of time before it becomes normal and accepted.

This, by the way, is the way that atheists could be seen as mainstream in America.  Excel at some sport - what about curling?

[ Edited: 09 July 2019 10:03 by EN]
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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09 July 2019 11:38
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 07 July 2019 03:22 PM

It was a great game.  Now it’s time to cheer them on in their lawsuit against what can only be described as egregious discrimination.  I remember the great skit John Stewart did on it a while back, with the athletes themselves.  As a dedicated fan who would watch them over any men’s game any day, I say it’s about time.

Why do you think there’s “egregious discrimination”?  In regards to the world cup prize money?

 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
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09 July 2019 14:44
 
DEGENERATEON - 09 July 2019 11:38 AM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 07 July 2019 03:22 PM

It was a great game.  Now it’s time to cheer them on in their lawsuit against what can only be described as egregious discrimination.  I remember the great skit John Stewart did on it a while back, with the athletes themselves.  As a dedicated fan who would watch them over any men’s game any day, I say it’s about time.

Why do you think there’s “egregious discrimination”?  In regards to the world cup prize money?

The different pay and substandard resources the women’s team gets compared to the men’s.  They are paid a fraction of what the men make, and they are often forced to play on substandard fields.  Yet, they outperform the men competitively (among women, of course, by orders of magnitude; the men’s team doesn’t even make the World Cup, much less win it).  Their games sell more tickets, and when televised they draw more advertising dollars.  Yet they are paid a fraction of what the men get paid by the same federation.  By any economic or accomplishment metric the USSF should be paying the women more than the men, and by one of moral equality, they certainly should be paying them at least as much.  Hence the “egregious discrimination.” 

I’m just saying I hope they win their lawsuit as clearly as they just won the World Cup—again!!

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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09 July 2019 15:15
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 09 July 2019 02:44 PM
DEGENERATEON - 09 July 2019 11:38 AM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 07 July 2019 03:22 PM

It was a great game.  Now it’s time to cheer them on in their lawsuit against what can only be described as egregious discrimination.  I remember the great skit John Stewart did on it a while back, with the athletes themselves.  As a dedicated fan who would watch them over any men’s game any day, I say it’s about time.

Why do you think there’s “egregious discrimination”?  In regards to the world cup prize money?

The different pay and substandard resources the women’s team gets compared to the men’s.  They are paid a fraction of what the men make, and they are often forced to play on substandard fields.  Yet, they outperform the men competitively (among women, of course, by orders of magnitude; the men’s team doesn’t even make the World Cup, much less win it).  Their games sell more tickets, and when televised they draw more advertising dollars.  Yet they are paid a fraction of what the men get paid by the same federation.  By any economic or accomplishment metric the USSF should be paying the women more than the men, and by one of moral equality, they certainly should be paying them at least as much.  Hence the “egregious discrimination.” 

I’m just saying I hope they win their lawsuit as clearly as they just won the World Cup—again!!

If the economic metric is there, then I agree they should be paid more.  I just think the accomplishment or moral metric is a weak argument.  I watched it, I have no doubt they generated a wild amount of money.  I was having this discussion with my wife, and she used the accomplishment argument.  My response was that you could have the most amazing WNBA team, the equivalent of 5 female Jordans, and they could be highly accomplished in their sport.  But it has to come down to money.  If eyes aren’t watching - they have less value.

 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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09 July 2019 15:23
 
DEGENERATEON - 09 July 2019 03:15 PM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 09 July 2019 02:44 PM
DEGENERATEON - 09 July 2019 11:38 AM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 07 July 2019 03:22 PM

It was a great game.  Now it’s time to cheer them on in their lawsuit against what can only be described as egregious discrimination.  I remember the great skit John Stewart did on it a while back, with the athletes themselves.  As a dedicated fan who would watch them over any men’s game any day, I say it’s about time.

Why do you think there’s “egregious discrimination”?  In regards to the world cup prize money?

The different pay and substandard resources the women’s team gets compared to the men’s.  They are paid a fraction of what the men make, and they are often forced to play on substandard fields.  Yet, they outperform the men competitively (among women, of course, by orders of magnitude; the men’s team doesn’t even make the World Cup, much less win it).  Their games sell more tickets, and when televised they draw more advertising dollars.  Yet they are paid a fraction of what the men get paid by the same federation.  By any economic or accomplishment metric the USSF should be paying the women more than the men, and by one of moral equality, they certainly should be paying them at least as much.  Hence the “egregious discrimination.” 

I’m just saying I hope they win their lawsuit as clearly as they just won the World Cup—again!!

If the economic metric is there, then I agree they should be paid more.  I just think the accomplishment or moral metric is a weak argument.  I watched it, I have no doubt they generated a wild amount of money.  I was having this discussion with my wife, and she used the accomplishment argument.  My response was that you could have the most amazing WNBA team, the equivalent of 5 female Jordans, and they could be highly accomplished in their sport.  But it has to come down to money.  If eyes aren’t watching - they have less value.

Um, did you miss the part that more eyes are watching, both live and on television?  This is not just during the World Cup; it’s every game they play.  No one gives a shit about the men’s team because they suck, and if you think excellence is weak metric for reward, then I don’t know how to help you.  Ditto, more or less, for the morality of rewarding men and women equally for accomplishment within their respective inheritances.  Title IX exists for a reason, and a good one.  Why not apply it to the USSF as well?

 

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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09 July 2019 16:38
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 09 July 2019 03:23 PM
DEGENERATEON - 09 July 2019 03:15 PM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 09 July 2019 02:44 PM
DEGENERATEON - 09 July 2019 11:38 AM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 07 July 2019 03:22 PM

It was a great game.  Now it’s time to cheer them on in their lawsuit against what can only be described as egregious discrimination.  I remember the great skit John Stewart did on it a while back, with the athletes themselves.  As a dedicated fan who would watch them over any men’s game any day, I say it’s about time.

Why do you think there’s “egregious discrimination”?  In regards to the world cup prize money?

The different pay and substandard resources the women’s team gets compared to the men’s.  They are paid a fraction of what the men make, and they are often forced to play on substandard fields.  Yet, they outperform the men competitively (among women, of course, by orders of magnitude; the men’s team doesn’t even make the World Cup, much less win it).  Their games sell more tickets, and when televised they draw more advertising dollars.  Yet they are paid a fraction of what the men get paid by the same federation.  By any economic or accomplishment metric the USSF should be paying the women more than the men, and by one of moral equality, they certainly should be paying them at least as much.  Hence the “egregious discrimination.” 

I’m just saying I hope they win their lawsuit as clearly as they just won the World Cup—again!!

If the economic metric is there, then I agree they should be paid more.  I just think the accomplishment or moral metric is a weak argument.  I watched it, I have no doubt they generated a wild amount of money.  I was having this discussion with my wife, and she used the accomplishment argument.  My response was that you could have the most amazing WNBA team, the equivalent of 5 female Jordans, and they could be highly accomplished in their sport.  But it has to come down to money.  If eyes aren’t watching - they have less value.

Um, did you miss the part that more eyes are watching, both live and on television?  This is not just during the World Cup; it’s every game they play.  No one gives a shit about the men’s team because they suck, and if you think excellence is weak metric for reward, then I don’t know how to help you.  Ditto, more or less, for the morality of rewarding men and women equally for accomplishment within their respective inheritances.  Title IX exists for a reason, and a good one.  Why not apply it to the USSF as well?

 

I didn’t miss that part, I just don’t know if it’s true.  Assuming it is true, then yes I’ve agreed they should be compensated more.
It’s the excellence equals reward that I don’t agree with.  Should the WNBA champs make as much as their NBA counterparts?

 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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09 July 2019 18:42
 

That’s not a valid comparison.  The WNBA and the NBA are two entirely separate leagues, with two entirely separate governing bodies overseeing individually and privately owned, for profit teams, all playing in two distinct competitive leagues.  The male and female teams are only nominally related in that both play basketball.  Beyond that, there is no basis for comparison between the players in the two leagues.

The women’s and men’s National soccer teams are entirely different.  Both are owned and employed by the same Federation (the USSF), and both have the same mission—to represent the United States on the international soccer stage.  As such, comparing the women’s and men’s National soccer teams is comparing counterparts in a common venture, and not rewarding excellence in that case is like an NBA or WNBA team not rewarding excellence among its own players, saying in effect that even bad players should be paid as much as good ones (in this case, it’s actually more). To put it another way, since the women’s and men’s soccer teams both represent the nation on the international soccer stage, and since both play for national pride and prestige as much as for—if not more than—profit (of which women make more anyway), why wouldn’t reward for excellence be a factor in their respective pay, excellence being the currency of that prestige? 

So there’s that comparison in addition to the argument that excellence should be rewarded, period.  Are you really suggesting that being the team every other team in the world wants to be shouldn’t be a factor in their pay?

In any case, if the US women’s and men’s soccer teams were like the WNBA and the NBA, I’d agree you have a point.  But they are not.  They are a men’s and women’s division of the same institution, the US National Team, hence something like Title IX should apply, just as it applies for men’s and women’s sports at any given university.  That’s the better comparison, as is a single employer, not the separate women’s and men’s basketball leagues that have no relationship whatsoever, except that both play basketball.

 

[ Edited: 09 July 2019 18:54 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
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09 July 2019 19:31
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 09 July 2019 06:42 PM

That’s not a valid comparison.  The WNBA and the NBA are two entirely separate leagues, with two entirely separate governing bodies overseeing individually and privately owned, for profit teams, all playing in two distinct competitive leagues.  The male and female teams are only nominally related in that both play basketball.  Beyond that, there is no basis for comparison between the players in the two leagues.

The women’s and men’s National soccer teams are entirely different.  Both are owned and employed by the same Federation (the USSF), and both have the same mission—to represent the United States on the international soccer stage.  As such, comparing the women’s and men’s National soccer teams is comparing counterparts in a common venture, and not rewarding excellence in that case is like an NBA or WNBA team not rewarding excellence among its own players, saying in effect that even bad players should be paid as much as good ones (in this case, it’s actually more). To put it another way, since the women’s and men’s soccer teams both represent the nation on the international soccer stage, and since both play for national pride and prestige as much as for—if not more than—profit (of which women make more anyway), why wouldn’t reward for excellence be a factor in their respective pay, excellence being the currency of that prestige? 

So there’s that comparison in addition to the argument that excellence should be rewarded, period.  Are you really suggesting that being the team every other team in the world wants to be shouldn’t be a factor in their pay?

In any case, if the US women’s and men’s soccer teams were like the WNBA and the NBA, I’d agree you have a point.  But they are not.  They are a men’s and women’s division of the same institution, the US National Team, hence something like Title IX should apply, just as it applies for men’s and women’s sports at any given university.  That’s the better comparison, as is a single employer, not the separate women’s and men’s basketball leagues that have no relationship whatsoever, except that both play basketball.

I am in complete agreement.

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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09 July 2019 19:39
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 09 July 2019 06:42 PM

That’s not a valid comparison.  The WNBA and the NBA are two entirely separate leagues, with two entirely separate governing bodies overseeing individually and privately owned, for profit teams, all playing in two distinct competitive leagues.  The male and female teams are only nominally related in that both play basketball.  Beyond that, there is no basis for comparison between the players in the two leagues.

The women’s and men’s National soccer teams are entirely different.  Both are owned and employed by the same Federation (the USSF), and both have the same mission—to represent the United States on the international soccer stage.  As such, comparing the women’s and men’s National soccer teams is comparing counterparts in a common venture, and not rewarding excellence in that case is like an NBA or WNBA team not rewarding excellence among its own players, saying in effect that even bad players should be paid as much as good ones (in this case, it’s actually more). To put it another way, since the women’s and men’s soccer teams both represent the nation on the international soccer stage, and since both play for national pride and prestige as much as for—if not more than—profit (of which women make more anyway), why wouldn’t reward for excellence be a factor in their respective pay, excellence being the currency of that prestige? 

So there’s that comparison in addition to the argument that excellence should be rewarded, period.  Are you really suggesting that being the team every other team in the world wants to be shouldn’t be a factor in their pay?

In any case, if the US women’s and men’s soccer teams were like the WNBA and the NBA, I’d agree you have a point.  But they are not.  They are a men’s and women’s division of the same institution, the US National Team, hence something like Title IX should apply, just as it applies for men’s and women’s sports at any given university.  That’s the better comparison, as is a single employer, not the separate women’s and men’s basketball leagues that have no relationship whatsoever, except that both play basketball.

You’re right, it isn’t a valid comparison.  My mistake, I didn’t realize the structure of the USSF, or that they are a nonprofit organization.  But who’s making all the money?!

 
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09 July 2019 20:11
 

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DEGENERATEON

Roger that, and you know, I don’t know who’s making all the money, how much is involved, where it goes, and how it works, exactly.  With USSF, I know a lot comes from sponsors, and there’s ticket revenue and television contracts.  And I know that for the men’s World Cup, $38 million goes to the winner, which is more than the entire prize pool in the women’s World Cup, where the winner only gets…$4 million, I think.  That differential has to do with FIFA and the relative popularity of the two leagues worldwide, where market forces dictate, not USSF policy (I’m pretty sure Fox paid FIFA, not the USSF, for the television rights to this year’s coverage).  Beyond these basics I don’t know how the money works.  I just love watching the US women’s team play more than any other sport out there, next to the Olympics.  In a way, this year I was almost disappointed that they did not trail, ever, in any game during the tournament.  Almost.  Full-spectrum domination is awesome in its own right.

[ Edited: 09 July 2019 20:13 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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09 July 2019 22:14
 

Instead of raising the women soccer payers’ pay to match the men’s, they should lower the men’s to match the women’s. That ought to make you both happy.

 
 
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09 July 2019 23:36
 
EN - 07 July 2019 12:16 PM

Congrats to the USA women on their 4th World Cup victory.  Clearly the best in the world.

Y’all should try your hands at cricket or maybe rugby next, I’m sure you would pick it up no problem.

 
GAD
 
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09 July 2019 23:43
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 09 July 2019 10:14 PM

Instead of raising the women soccer payers’ pay to match the men’s, they should lower the men’s to match the women’s. That ought to make you both happy.

No one watches women’s soccer so no money, get as big as men’s and the money will be there.

 
 
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