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Leave it or fix it?

 
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Skipshot
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17 July 2019 21:56
 

I found this.

The people telling Americans that if they don’t like their government they should leave are the same people telling asylum seekers that if they don’t like their government they should stay and fix it.  - Michael Hall

 
mapadofu
 
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mapadofu
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18 July 2019 06:23
 

Stealing this

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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18 July 2019 07:49
 
Skipshot - 17 July 2019 09:56 PM

I found this.

The people telling Americans that if they don’t like their government they should leave are the same people telling asylum seekers that if they don’t like their government they should stay and fix it.  - Michael Hall

Apparently it depends on what color your skin is.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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18 July 2019 08:34
 

I don’t know, I fully support not letting throngs of poor, sick, uneducated people dog-pile into the US. And if you are here and want to help make it better, great, but if all you want to do is bitch and whine about how bad it is then get the fuck out seems appropriate.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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18 July 2019 09:02
 

America, love it or leave it.  A stupid old phrase used by those who don’t understand their own constitution and the importance of criticism and dissent in a democracy.


https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2019/07/17/painful-history-trump-love-leave-argument/IxNJigjzgWlg1HYd2STQHM/story.html

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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18 July 2019 09:26
 

The people turning away and objecting to immigrants and asylum seekers are the n-children of immigrants and asylum seekers.

 
 
icehorse
 
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18 July 2019 10:50
 
GAD - 18 July 2019 08:34 AM

I don’t know, I fully support not letting throngs of poor, sick, uneducated people dog-pile into the US. And if you are here and want to help make it better, great, but if all you want to do is bitch and whine about how bad it is then get the fuck out seems appropriate.

Largely agreed. And there are some important distinctions here that seem to be getting blurred:

For decades, we’ve taken the stance that immigrants ought to contribute to our society. We do also help refugees, but that’s a distinctly different group of people.

The next point is that if one of our goals is to help poor people around the world, immigration for the poor, is a hugely ineffective approach. We can support only a tiny, tiny fraction of the world’s poor via immigration. if we REALLY care, our energies should be directed to “aid and support in place”.

 

 
 
unsmoked
 
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18 July 2019 11:59
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_exile

quote from this site:

The majority of the 1,172,899 current Cuban exiles living in the United States live in Florida (917,033 in 2014), mainly in Miami-Dade County, where more than a third of the population is Cuban. Other exiles have relocated to form substantial Cuban communities in New York City (16,416), Louisville, KY (6,662), Houston, TX (6,233), Los Angeles (6,056), Union City, NJ (4,970) and others.

See here how their vote is changing -  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/04/miami-cubans-midterm-elections-voters

In 1959, how were Cuban exiles received when they arrived in Florida?  https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/cuban-immigrants-united-states

 
 
MrRon
 
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18 July 2019 15:01
 

Would Trump have told two of our greatest and most beloved Americans, Martin Luther King Jr and Muhammad Ali, to leave the country when they were fighting for change?

Ron

 
mapadofu
 
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mapadofu
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18 July 2019 18:11
 

A 3-d chess interpretation:  by attacking these members of Congress, Trump turns them into the faces of the Democratic Party.  This serves his politics in that they are, or they can be cast as, that which his base hates and fears, which solidifies his core supporters.  I tend to think he does it instinctually, not by calculating out the effects, just lashing out against whoever he perceives as his enemy;  but those instincts have served him well enough so far.

 
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18 July 2019 20:06
 
mapadofu - 18 July 2019 06:11 PM

A 3-d chess interpretation:  by attacking these members of Congress, Trump turns them into the faces of the Democratic Party.  This serves his politics in that they are, or they can be cast as, that which his base hates and fears, which solidifies his core supporters.

Interesting interpretation, and most likely correct.

mapadofu - 18 July 2019 06:11 PM

I tend to think he does it instinctually, not by calculating out the effects, just lashing out against whoever he perceives as his enemy;  but those instincts have served him well enough so far.

Yep.  He has also learned that his base is filled with fearful racists, so adding that to his lashing-out repertoire is easy. 

Honestly, I think Trump is laughing at how stupid his base is and how easily duped they are, and that he thinks his presidency is a joke which has gone too far and he has lost control of it, so he just panders to the base and they eat it up.  Meanwhile, the career bureaucrats maintain the ship of state and keep Trump from running it aground.

 
Cheshire Cat
 
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19 July 2019 10:15
 
Skipshot - 18 July 2019 08:06 PM
mapadofu - 18 July 2019 06:11 PM

A 3-d chess interpretation:  by attacking these members of Congress, Trump turns them into the faces of the Democratic Party.  This serves his politics in that they are, or they can be cast as, that which his base hates and fears, which solidifies his core supporters.

Interesting interpretation, and most likely correct.

mapadofu - 18 July 2019 06:11 PM

I tend to think he does it instinctually, not by calculating out the effects, just lashing out against whoever he perceives as his enemy;  but those instincts have served him well enough so far.

Yep.  He has also learned that his base is filled with fearful racists, so adding that to his lashing-out repertoire is easy. 

Honestly, I think Trump is laughing at how stupid his base is and how easily duped they are, and that he thinks his presidency is a joke which has gone too far and he has lost control of it, so he just panders to the base and they eat it up.  Meanwhile, the career bureaucrats maintain the ship of state and keep Trump from running it aground.

Yes, it’s all about his base; his white fearful base. The rest of us, 60% or more of the US population, never seem to enter his mind.

Every time he says some embarrassing, repugnant thing in public or on Twitter, I get the same feeling I do as when I accidentally step in dog shit — Uuugghh!

I suspect I’m not the only one.

I hope that maybe, just maybe, this orange clown will be swept out of office next year by a huge wave of repulsed and disgusted voters. Perhaps flushed out of office would be more appropriate term.

 
 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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19 July 2019 11:16
 
Cheshire Cat - 19 July 2019 10:15 AM
Skipshot - 18 July 2019 08:06 PM
mapadofu - 18 July 2019 06:11 PM

A 3-d chess interpretation:  by attacking these members of Congress, Trump turns them into the faces of the Democratic Party.  This serves his politics in that they are, or they can be cast as, that which his base hates and fears, which solidifies his core supporters.

Interesting interpretation, and most likely correct.

mapadofu - 18 July 2019 06:11 PM

I tend to think he does it instinctually, not by calculating out the effects, just lashing out against whoever he perceives as his enemy;  but those instincts have served him well enough so far.

Yep.  He has also learned that his base is filled with fearful racists, so adding that to his lashing-out repertoire is easy. 

Honestly, I think Trump is laughing at how stupid his base is and how easily duped they are, and that he thinks his presidency is a joke which has gone too far and he has lost control of it, so he just panders to the base and they eat it up.  Meanwhile, the career bureaucrats maintain the ship of state and keep Trump from running it aground.

Yes, it’s all about his base; his white fearful base. The rest of us, 60% or more of the US population, never seem to enter his mind.

Every time he says some embarrassing, repugnant thing in public or on Twitter, I get the same feeling I do as when I accidentally step in dog shit — Uuugghh!

I suspect I’m not the only one.

I hope that maybe, just maybe, this orange clown will be swept out of office next year by a huge wave of repulsed and disgusted voters. Perhaps flushed out of office would be more appropriate term.

Could he lose by 5 million votes and still be elected for a second term?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/how-trump-could-lose-5-million-votes-still-win-2020-n1031601  (posted by NBC a few hours ago)

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/19/743310472/trumps-go-back-rhetoric-is-sign-of-a-racially-divisive-and-turbulent-year-to-com

“The next time that chant, or one like it, comes up at a rally, will Trump and stop it? That’s unclear but may be beside the point. What’s clear is this week highlighted — once again — that racial division and identity politics are going to be a major factor in the 2020 campaign and will almost certainly overshadow anything else that comes up.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/434110-trump-suggests-that-things-could-get-very-bad-if-military-police

“I can tell you I have the support of the police, the support of the military, the support of the Bikers for Trump – I have the tough people, but they don’t play it tough — until they go to a certain point, and then it would be very bad, very bad,” Trump said.

If polls convince him that he is going to lose in 2020 . . . is that the certain point when it would be ‘very bad, very bad’?

[ Edited: 19 July 2019 11:53 by unsmoked]
 
 
Garret
 
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Garret
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19 July 2019 16:05
 
icehorse - 18 July 2019 10:50 AM
GAD - 18 July 2019 08:34 AM

I don’t know, I fully support not letting throngs of poor, sick, uneducated people dog-pile into the US. And if you are here and want to help make it better, great, but if all you want to do is bitch and whine about how bad it is then get the fuck out seems appropriate.

Largely agreed. And there are some important distinctions here that seem to be getting blurred:

For decades, we’ve taken the stance that immigrants ought to contribute to our society. We do also help refugees, but that’s a distinctly different group of people.

The next point is that if one of our goals is to help poor people around the world, immigration for the poor, is a hugely ineffective approach. We can support only a tiny, tiny fraction of the world’s poor via immigration. if we REALLY care, our energies should be directed to “aid and support in place”.

The policies of keeping people out of this country have directly led to the problem in some of those places worse.
Prior to the 1980s, for over a hundred years, migrant workers just went across the US-Mexico border.  It wasn’t technically legal, but they did it.  They came to work, and after the jobs were done, they went home.  When Chapman took over the INS under Reagan, he felt this was unacceptable.  These migrant workers weren’t following the rules.  So, he started the drumbeat to secure the border.  This made it harder for migrant workers to cross regularly.  The higher paying jobs were in the US, but their families were in Mexico (or other countries).  Since crossing the border was getting too difficult, the only solution was to bring their family with them.

Fast forward a couple decades, and you have was is mostly an ever growing undocumented population.  By NOT allowing them to flow freely, the migrants only choose to move one way.  Now the US has to spend more resources deporting people, because they don’t leave voluntarily.  The population only gets bigger, unless interior enforcement can deport people faster than they can sneak across.  It is literally a problem we’ve created.

But wait, there’s more.

A lot of these families end up having to live in very poor neighborhoods.  Sometimes the children of these families get caught up in gang activity.  Once they are arrested, they spend some time in prison, and then get deported because they aren’t citizens.  You know all the reports of rampant gangs in Central America?  The nucleus of those gangs are the deported criminals we sent there.  We’ve literally exported these criminals to these places, and now people are fleeing the gang violence that is taking place.

This problem is US in origin.  We have to change how we approach the problem ENTIRELY, or it will only fester.

 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
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19 July 2019 18:10
 

Orwell certainly was right about fascism. It’s about getting people to embrace contradiction.

Make the lie big enough.

 
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19 July 2019 18:42
 

Blaming the weakest in both wealth and political power for the country’s problems and making them a political top priority is the sign of a bully and a distraction to those who swallow that garbage.  Trump is picking their pockets while his distracts his believers with a parade of boogymen.

The crash of 2008 was from the top down, but the top wants you to believe it was the boogeyman’s doing.

 
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