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It’s offensive to NOT wear a Hijab? Shame on Miss Michigan?

 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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20 July 2019 15:54
 
icehorse - 20 July 2019 09:56 AM

When asked to try on a hijab, Miss Michigan declined. Offensive? Really?

ex miss michigan

She was certainly not stripped of the title for declining to wear a hijab, as she claimed - that’s a strawman.  She’s mis-characterizing the reasons she was stripped and making a right-wing hullabaloo over it.  She made some Islamophobic tweets about her refusal, and some additional racist tweets.  The article title has it right, she was stripped for her offensive posts, not refusing to wear a hijab (the pageant officials don’t actually comment in the article).

Nor is there any indication that anyone in Michagan found it offensive that she declined to wear a hijab, as your Islamophobic post claims.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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20 July 2019 16:25
 
Skipshot - 20 July 2019 03:25 PM
icehorse - 20 July 2019 03:14 PM

skip:

..Instead she chose the usual route of haters (aka “conservatives”) and proclaimed to the public at large of the victimization she suffered for her beliefs..

Oh, I don’t think that playing the victim card is exclusively the domain of “conservatives”.

”Playing the victim/race card” has become a way of dismissing a grievance.  Sometimes it is a true grievance, but in this woman’s case it is not.  Let her get a lawyer and argue her case if she feels strongly about it.

I didn’t see any mention of her having those intentions. This was a public firing, I believe she’s simply responding.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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20 July 2019 17:08
 

I can’t help but notice that nobody ever seemed to mind when Jacqueline Kennedy and Princess Diana wore head scarves.  And they did.  All the time.  It’s been two decades since nine eleven. It’s time for folks to come out from under their desks and face these phantom fears.  If last week didn’t epitomize the need for that then nothing will.  It’s never really about the scarves.  It’s about the brown girls beneath them.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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20 July 2019 17:59
 

Come on, this was totally bullshit politics,defending it makes you look silly. Proof, reverse the situation, if she been stripped of her title for supporting Muslim, gays, abortion etc, you guys would be going ape shit on here right now, but since you disagree with her views you act like it is normal and just fine. Nothing but double standard bullshit.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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20 July 2019 18:11
 
GAD - 20 July 2019 05:59 PM

Come on, this was totally bullshit politics,defending it makes you look silly. Proof, reverse the situation, if she been stripped of her title for supporting Muslim, gays, abortion etc, you guys would be going ape shit on here right now, but since you disagree with her views you act like it is normal and just fine. Nothing but double standard bullshit.

It’s not a double standard – it’s simply a moral standard.  It is normal to reject that which is narrow-minded and prejudiced.  At least it should be.

 
 
icehorse
 
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20 July 2019 18:13
 
LadyJane - 20 July 2019 05:08 PM

I can’t help but notice that nobody ever seemed to mind when Jacqueline Kennedy and Princess Diana wore head scarves.  And they did.  All the time.  It’s been two decades since nine eleven. It’s time for folks to come out from under their desks and face these phantom fears.  If last week didn’t epitomize the need for that then nothing will.  It’s never really about the scarves.  It’s about the brown girls beneath them.

Which is why we’re forever bashing those pesky Sikhs and Hindus and..

Get a clue LJ. This really isn’t about racism, and the fact that you think it is, is truly shocking at this point. You might think Islam is benign, but some of us don’t, and Islam is about ideas, not race.

 
 
icehorse
 
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20 July 2019 18:14
 
Jan_CAN - 20 July 2019 06:11 PM
GAD - 20 July 2019 05:59 PM

Come on, this was totally bullshit politics,defending it makes you look silly. Proof, reverse the situation, if she been stripped of her title for supporting Muslim, gays, abortion etc, you guys would be going ape shit on here right now, but since you disagree with her views you act like it is normal and just fine. Nothing but double standard bullshit.

It’s not a double standard – it’s simply a moral standard.  It is normal to reject that which is narrow-minded and prejudiced.  At least it should be.

Just to be clear here, where’s the prejudice?

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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20 July 2019 18:16
 
Jan_CAN - 20 July 2019 06:11 PM
GAD - 20 July 2019 05:59 PM

Come on, this was totally bullshit politics,defending it makes you look silly. Proof, reverse the situation, if she been stripped of her title for supporting Muslim, gays, abortion etc, you guys would be going ape shit on here right now, but since you disagree with her views you act like it is normal and just fine. Nothing but double standard bullshit.

It’s not a double standard – it’s simply a moral standard.  It is normal to reject that which is narrow-minded and prejudiced.  At least it should be.

Exactly! Completely subjective double standard bullshit. If she had been ask to wave a confederate flag and refused and been stripped of her title you would be ranting on about the poor poor women of the world and how the great new world is coming where they can be, do and say what they want…as long as you agree with it.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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20 July 2019 18:21
 

When slaves were emancipated they never brought vengeance down upon their masters.  Surprising, really, it says a lot about the perception of freedom.  Accepting reality is the best chance of survival.  I guess there’s no point resisting change you can’t control.  Like the inevitable diversity of nomadic populations.  The longer it takes for people to come around the more time for the resentment to build.  And I wouldn’t bet on the educated children of today being quite as forgiving as those slaves.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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20 July 2019 18:48
 

And people wonder why America has such a problem with race relations.  The problem is not just with hard-core racists, but also with the high level of tolerance for bigotry.  This was particular evident this past week with apathy and excuses for the recent Racist-in-Chief’s tirades.  For those who don’t know how to recognize it when it’s in your face, how can it possibly be explained?

 
 
icehorse
 
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20 July 2019 19:02
 
Jan_CAN - 20 July 2019 06:48 PM

And people wonder why America has such a problem with race relations.  The problem is not just with hard-core racists, but also with the high level of tolerance for bigotry.  This was particular evident this past week with apathy and excuses for the recent Racist-in-Chief’s tirades.  For those who don’t know how to recognize it when it’s in your face, how can it possibly be explained?

A lot of ambiguity in this post Jan. And some conflation. First, let’s keep bigotry and racism separate ideas. I’m sure most everyone on this forum sees trump’s blatant racism. But bigotry is about ideas. For example, everyone on this forum is bigoted against Nazis.

 
 
lynmc
 
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20 July 2019 19:49
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 20 July 2019 12:21 PM

The hijab is like the Confederate flag in a way.

Most people who fly the Confederate flag do so to identify themselves as “rebels.” But many people take it as a symbol of racism and are offended by it. Most women who wear the hijab do so to “retain their modesty and morals.” But many people take it as a symbol of Sharia (stoning adulteresses, cutting hands off thieves, executing homosexuals, women as property, etc.) and are offended by it.

In each case, there are both benign and malevolent reasons for displaying the symbol. In the case of the “rebel” flag, the malevolent reason is used to justify the wrongness of flying it; people who are offended by it are given priority over people who aren’t. But in the case of the hijab, the benign reason is used to justify the rightness (or non-wrongness) of wearing it; people who perceive it as benign are given priority over people who are offended by it.

It seems to me that this is a double standard. If the feelings of people who are offended by a symbol are deemed more important than the feelings of people who aren’t, then shouldn’t that standard be applied in both cases? Or, conversely, if people who aren’t offended by a symbol are given priority over people who are, shouldn’t that standard be applied in both cases?

Why is it okay to offend people with a hijab but not with a “rebel” flag?

No, gotta disagree.  The confederate flag is a symbol of white supremacy, segregation etc to pretty much all of those who wave it (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_battle_flag for example).  I doubt the hijab is a symbol of female subjugation to those who wear it at least it in the west, where it’s not required.  And there’s disagreement all over the place as to what kind of dress are symbols of subjugation, for example, exposing flesh turns them into sex objects, high heels are bad for posture and ability to do practical things like run if attacked, and so forth.

 
GAD
 
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20 July 2019 20:10
 
lynmc - 20 July 2019 07:49 PM
Antisocialdarwinist - 20 July 2019 12:21 PM

The hijab is like the Confederate flag in a way.

Most people who fly the Confederate flag do so to identify themselves as “rebels.” But many people take it as a symbol of racism and are offended by it. Most women who wear the hijab do so to “retain their modesty and morals.” But many people take it as a symbol of Sharia (stoning adulteresses, cutting hands off thieves, executing homosexuals, women as property, etc.) and are offended by it.

In each case, there are both benign and malevolent reasons for displaying the symbol. In the case of the “rebel” flag, the malevolent reason is used to justify the wrongness of flying it; people who are offended by it are given priority over people who aren’t. But in the case of the hijab, the benign reason is used to justify the rightness (or non-wrongness) of wearing it; people who perceive it as benign are given priority over people who are offended by it.

It seems to me that this is a double standard. If the feelings of people who are offended by a symbol are deemed more important than the feelings of people who aren’t, then shouldn’t that standard be applied in both cases? Or, conversely, if people who aren’t offended by a symbol are given priority over people who are, shouldn’t that standard be applied in both cases?

Why is it okay to offend people with a hijab but not with a “rebel” flag?

No, gotta disagree.  The confederate flag is a symbol of white supremacy, segregation etc to pretty much all of those who wave it (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_battle_flag for example).  I doubt the hijab is a symbol of female subjugation to those who wear it at least it in the west, where it’s not required.  And there’s disagreement all over the place as to what kind of dress are symbols of subjugation, for example, exposing flesh turns them into sex objects, high heels are bad for posture and ability to do practical things like run if attacked, and so forth.

Subjective at best, double standard at least. Islam is subjugation and women are subjugated to men by god and their dress shows they are good little subservient women to their masters.

 
 
mapadofu
 
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mapadofu
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21 July 2019 05:25
 
icehorse - 20 July 2019 07:02 PM
Jan_CAN - 20 July 2019 06:48 PM

And people wonder why America has such a problem with race relations.  The problem is not just with hard-core racists, but also with the high level of tolerance for bigotry.  This was particular evident this past week with apathy and excuses for the recent Racist-in-Chief’s tirades.  For those who don’t know how to recognize it when it’s in your face, how can it possibly be explained?

A lot of ambiguity in this post Jan. And some conflation. First, let’s keep bigotry and racism separate ideas. I’m sure most everyone on this forum sees trump’s blatant racism. But bigotry is about ideas. For example, everyone on this forum is bigoted against Nazis.

Nice move Icehorse.  Icehorse is bigoted against Muslims.  Do you bristle at that? If so then you should know why your use of the term is inapt.  If not, then you’ve swallowed another bit of the alt-right playbook and accepted their form of moral relativism.

The initial post itself is of that ilk too.  Use a click-baity title, misrepresent the actual facts (she was fired for her tweets not for the initial refusal) and try to skew the topic towards indignation.  It’s too bad you’ve adopted these bullshit techniques, since there could be several interesting topics to discuss here.

 
Jan_CAN
 
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21 July 2019 06:53
 
mapadofu - 21 July 2019 05:25 AM
icehorse - 20 July 2019 07:02 PM
Jan_CAN - 20 July 2019 06:48 PM

And people wonder why America has such a problem with race relations.  The problem is not just with hard-core racists, but also with the high level of tolerance for bigotry.  This was particular evident this past week with apathy and excuses for the recent Racist-in-Chief’s tirades.  For those who don’t know how to recognize it when it’s in your face, how can it possibly be explained?

A lot of ambiguity in this post Jan. And some conflation. First, let’s keep bigotry and racism separate ideas. I’m sure most everyone on this forum sees trump’s blatant racism. But bigotry is about ideas. For example, everyone on this forum is bigoted against Nazis.

Nice move Icehorse.  Icehorse is bigoted against Muslims.  Do you bristle at that? If so then you should know why your use of the term is inapt.  If not, then you’ve swallowed another bit of the alt-right playbook and accepted their form of moral relativism.

The initial post itself is of that ilk too.  Use a click-baity title, misrepresent the actual facts (she was fired for her tweets not for the initial refusal) and try to skew the topic towards indignation.  It’s too bad you’ve adopted these bullshit techniques, since there could be several interesting topics to discuss here.

You’ve hit the nail on the head, mapadofu.

 
 
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