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It’s offensive to NOT wear a Hijab? Shame on Miss Michigan?

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  7662
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
21 July 2019 07:15
 
mapadofu - 21 July 2019 05:25 AM
icehorse - 20 July 2019 07:02 PM
Jan_CAN - 20 July 2019 06:48 PM

And people wonder why America has such a problem with race relations.  The problem is not just with hard-core racists, but also with the high level of tolerance for bigotry.  This was particular evident this past week with apathy and excuses for the recent Racist-in-Chief’s tirades.  For those who don’t know how to recognize it when it’s in your face, how can it possibly be explained?

A lot of ambiguity in this post Jan. And some conflation. First, let’s keep bigotry and racism separate ideas. I’m sure most everyone on this forum sees trump’s blatant racism. But bigotry is about ideas. For example, everyone on this forum is bigoted against Nazis.

Nice move Icehorse.  Icehorse is bigoted against Muslims.  Do you bristle at that? If so then you should know why your use of the term is inapt.  If not, then you’ve swallowed another bit of the alt-right playbook and accepted their form of moral relativism.

The initial post itself is of that ilk too.  Use a click-baity title, misrepresent the actual facts (she was fired for her tweets not for the initial refusal) and try to skew the topic towards indignation.  It’s too bad you’ve adopted these bullshit techniques, since there could be several interesting topics to discuss here.

“bigotry: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.”

Yes, I’m happy to agree that I’m bigoted towards anyone who really believes that the Quran is a perfect book and that Muhammad is a perfect role model. I find those opinions to be toxic. I don’t think I’ve been coy about that.

 
 
nonverbal
 
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nonverbal
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21 July 2019 08:02
 
Jan_CAN - 20 July 2019 06:48 PM

And people wonder why America has such a problem with race relations.  The problem is not just with hard-core racists, but also with the high level of tolerance for bigotry.  This was particular evident this past week with apathy and excuses for the recent Racist-in-Chief’s tirades.  For those who don’t know how to recognize it when it’s in your face, how can it possibly be explained?

One problem with newsmakers continually emphasizing obviously racially-tinged comments coming from Trump is that each emphasis covertly implies that something new (and newsworthy) has been uncovered. In other words, each new poke at Trump’s obvious racism implies that his previous actions and comments were’t actually quite racist. At least that’s how it seems to me.

On the other hand, I hope journalists continue to tabulate, list and mention his every repugnant word and deed without appearing to be tolerant of racism. Just not breathlessly, as much as that’s possible.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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21 July 2019 08:05
 
icehorse - 21 July 2019 07:15 AM
mapadofu - 21 July 2019 05:25 AM

Nice move Icehorse.  Icehorse is bigoted against Muslims.  Do you bristle at that? If so then you should know why your use of the term is inapt.  If not, then you’ve swallowed another bit of the alt-right playbook and accepted their form of moral relativism.

The initial post itself is of that ilk too.  Use a click-baity title, misrepresent the actual facts (she was fired for her tweets not for the initial refusal) and try to skew the topic towards indignation.  It’s too bad you’ve adopted these bullshit techniques, since there could be several interesting topics to discuss here.

“bigotry: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.”

Yes, I’m happy to agree that I’m bigoted towards anyone who really believes that the Quran is a perfect book and that Muhammad is a perfect role model. I find those opinions to be toxic. I don’t think I’ve been coy about that.

Nope, you don’t get to distort bigotry into a good thing just to excuse your own views or behaviour.


Cambridge Dictionary
Bigotry:  the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life: religious/racial bigotry

Oxford Dictionary
Bigotry:  the state of feeling, or the act of expressing, strong, unreasonable beliefs or opinions

 

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
Total Posts:  7662
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21 July 2019 08:17
 
Jan_CAN - 21 July 2019 08:05 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 07:15 AM
mapadofu - 21 July 2019 05:25 AM

Nice move Icehorse.  Icehorse is bigoted against Muslims.  Do you bristle at that? If so then you should know why your use of the term is inapt.  If not, then you’ve swallowed another bit of the alt-right playbook and accepted their form of moral relativism.

The initial post itself is of that ilk too.  Use a click-baity title, misrepresent the actual facts (she was fired for her tweets not for the initial refusal) and try to skew the topic towards indignation.  It’s too bad you’ve adopted these bullshit techniques, since there could be several interesting topics to discuss here.

“bigotry: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.”

Yes, I’m happy to agree that I’m bigoted towards anyone who really believes that the Quran is a perfect book and that Muhammad is a perfect role model. I find those opinions to be toxic. I don’t think I’ve been coy about that.

Nope, you don’t get to distort bigotry into a good thing just to excuse your own views or behaviour.


Cambridge Dictionary
Bigotry:  the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life: religious/racial bigotry

Oxford Dictionary
Bigotry:  the state of feeling, or the act of expressing, strong, unreasonable beliefs or opinions

For the sake of discussion, I’ll grant you your definition. In fact, since you stressed the word “unreasonable”, I’d say that being critical of Islam is far from being unreasonable.  In which case I’ll amend my previous statement:

I’m happy to agree that I’m suspicious of anyone who really believes that the Quran is a perfect book and that Muhammad is a perfect role model. I find those opinions to be toxic. I don’t think I’ve been coy about that.

But the key point is that that’s not racist.

 
 
lynmc
 
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lynmc
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21 July 2019 08:24
 
GAD - 20 July 2019 08:10 PM
lynmc - 20 July 2019 07:49 PM
Antisocialdarwinist - 20 July 2019 12:21 PM

The hijab is like the Confederate flag in a way.

Most people who fly the Confederate flag do so to identify themselves as “rebels.” But many people take it as a symbol of racism and are offended by it. Most women who wear the hijab do so to “retain their modesty and morals.” But many people take it as a symbol of Sharia (stoning adulteresses, cutting hands off thieves, executing homosexuals, women as property, etc.) and are offended by it.

In each case, there are both benign and malevolent reasons for displaying the symbol. In the case of the “rebel” flag, the malevolent reason is used to justify the wrongness of flying it; people who are offended by it are given priority over people who aren’t. But in the case of the hijab, the benign reason is used to justify the rightness (or non-wrongness) of wearing it; people who perceive it as benign are given priority over people who are offended by it.

It seems to me that this is a double standard. If the feelings of people who are offended by a symbol are deemed more important than the feelings of people who aren’t, then shouldn’t that standard be applied in both cases? Or, conversely, if people who aren’t offended by a symbol are given priority over people who are, shouldn’t that standard be applied in both cases?

Why is it okay to offend people with a hijab but not with a “rebel” flag?

No, gotta disagree.  The confederate flag is a symbol of white supremacy, segregation etc to pretty much all of those who wave it (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_battle_flag for example).  I doubt the hijab is a symbol of female subjugation to those who wear it at least it in the west, where it’s not required.  And there’s disagreement all over the place as to what kind of dress are symbols of subjugation, for example, exposing flesh turns them into sex objects, high heels are bad for posture and ability to do practical things like run if attacked, and so forth.

Subjective at best, double standard at least. Islam is subjugation and women are subjugated to men by god and their dress shows they are good little subservient women to their masters.

Who gives you the right to speak for these women?  If they don’t think it’s a symbol of subjugation to men, it’s not for you to say.  You’re showing disrespect in doing so.  If they want to wear a hijab, they should wear a hijab.  If you’re a man and you want women to bare their legs and mid-riff and wear low-cut necklines, perhaps you’re subjugating them?  Make-up and high heels and bras can be symbols of subjugation in the west.  But if a woman wants to wear them and doesn’t think that way, it’s not for anyone else to say.

 
mapadofu
 
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mapadofu
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21 July 2019 08:25
 

Merriman Webster uses “ obstinate or intolerant devotion to one’s own opinions and prejudices : the state of mind of a bigot”.

More and more, I’m finding your views Icehorse to be obstinate and intolerant, so maybe the term does apply /to you/.  Are you getting sucked into the alt-right vortex?

 
mapadofu
 
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mapadofu
Total Posts:  706
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21 July 2019 08:26
 
icehorse - 21 July 2019 08:17 AM
Jan_CAN - 21 July 2019 08:05 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 07:15 AM
mapadofu - 21 July 2019 05:25 AM

Nice move Icehorse.  Icehorse is bigoted against Muslims.  Do you bristle at that? If so then you should know why your use of the term is inapt.  If not, then you’ve swallowed another bit of the alt-right playbook and accepted their form of moral relativism.

The initial post itself is of that ilk too.  Use a click-baity title, misrepresent the actual facts (she was fired for her tweets not for the initial refusal) and try to skew the topic towards indignation.  It’s too bad you’ve adopted these bullshit techniques, since there could be several interesting topics to discuss here.

“bigotry: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.”

Yes, I’m happy to agree that I’m bigoted towards anyone who really believes that the Quran is a perfect book and that Muhammad is a perfect role model. I find those opinions to be toxic. I don’t think I’ve been coy about that.

Nope, you don’t get to distort bigotry into a good thing just to excuse your own views or behaviour.


Cambridge Dictionary
Bigotry:  the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life: religious/racial bigotry

Oxford Dictionary
Bigotry:  the state of feeling, or the act of expressing, strong, unreasonable beliefs or opinions

For the sake of discussion, I’ll grant you your definition. In fact, since you stressed the word “unreasonable”, I’d say that being critical of Islam is far from being unreasonable.  In which case I’ll amend my previous statement:

I’m happy to agree that I’m suspicious of anyone who really believes that the Quran is a perfect book and that Muhammad is a perfect role model. I find those opinions to be toxic. I don’t think I’ve been coy about that.

But the key point is that that’s not racist.

And using that definition, opposition to Nazis is not bigotry.

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  3430
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
21 July 2019 08:28
 
icehorse - 21 July 2019 08:17 AM
Jan_CAN - 21 July 2019 08:05 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 07:15 AM

“bigotry: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.”

Yes, I’m happy to agree that I’m bigoted towards anyone who really believes that the Quran is a perfect book and that Muhammad is a perfect role model. I find those opinions to be toxic. I don’t think I’ve been coy about that.

Nope, you don’t get to distort bigotry into a good thing just to excuse your own views or behaviour.


Cambridge Dictionary
Bigotry:  the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life: religious/racial bigotry

Oxford Dictionary
Bigotry:  the state of feeling, or the act of expressing, strong, unreasonable beliefs or opinions

For the sake of discussion, I’ll grant you your definition. In fact, since you stressed the word “unreasonable”, I’d say that being critical of Islam is far from being unreasonable.  In which case I’ll amend my previous statement:

I’m happy to agree that I’m suspicious of anyone who really believes that the Quran is a perfect book and that Muhammad is a perfect role model. I find those opinions to be toxic. I don’t think I’ve been coy about that.

But the key point is that that’s not racist.

Being critical of Islam is not necessarily unreasonable; using this position to judge all Muslims is – it is unreasonable and it is bigoted.  To ignore the fact that there is an element of racism in Islamophobia is a mistake – the majority of Muslims are ‘non-white’ and racism contributes to the prejudice that they experience in the west.

Playing word games doesn’t change what a thing is.

 

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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21 July 2019 08:54
 
lynmc - 21 July 2019 08:24 AM
GAD - 20 July 2019 08:10 PM
lynmc - 20 July 2019 07:49 PM
Antisocialdarwinist - 20 July 2019 12:21 PM

The hijab is like the Confederate flag in a way.

Most people who fly the Confederate flag do so to identify themselves as “rebels.” But many people take it as a symbol of racism and are offended by it. Most women who wear the hijab do so to “retain their modesty and morals.” But many people take it as a symbol of Sharia (stoning adulteresses, cutting hands off thieves, executing homosexuals, women as property, etc.) and are offended by it.

In each case, there are both benign and malevolent reasons for displaying the symbol. In the case of the “rebel” flag, the malevolent reason is used to justify the wrongness of flying it; people who are offended by it are given priority over people who aren’t. But in the case of the hijab, the benign reason is used to justify the rightness (or non-wrongness) of wearing it; people who perceive it as benign are given priority over people who are offended by it.

It seems to me that this is a double standard. If the feelings of people who are offended by a symbol are deemed more important than the feelings of people who aren’t, then shouldn’t that standard be applied in both cases? Or, conversely, if people who aren’t offended by a symbol are given priority over people who are, shouldn’t that standard be applied in both cases?

Why is it okay to offend people with a hijab but not with a “rebel” flag?

No, gotta disagree.  The confederate flag is a symbol of white supremacy, segregation etc to pretty much all of those who wave it (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_battle_flag for example).  I doubt the hijab is a symbol of female subjugation to those who wear it at least it in the west, where it’s not required.  And there’s disagreement all over the place as to what kind of dress are symbols of subjugation, for example, exposing flesh turns them into sex objects, high heels are bad for posture and ability to do practical things like run if attacked, and so forth.

Subjective at best, double standard at least. Islam is subjugation and women are subjugated to men by god and their dress shows they are good little subservient women to their masters.

Who gives you the right to speak for these women?  If they don’t think it’s a symbol of subjugation to men, it’s not for you to say.  You’re showing disrespect in doing so.  If they want to wear a hijab, they should wear a hijab.  If you’re a man and you want women to bare their legs and mid-riff and wear low-cut necklines, perhaps you’re subjugating them?  Make-up and high heels and bras can be symbols of subjugation in the west.  But if a woman wants to wear them and doesn’t think that way, it’s not for anyone else to say.

I’m a man, god gave me the right to speak for women, look it up in the holy books.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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21 July 2019 09:29
 
GAD - 21 July 2019 08:54 AM

I’m a man, god gave me the right to speak for women, look it up in the holy books.

You can have your rib back now.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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21 July 2019 10:03
 
mapadofu - 21 July 2019 08:25 AM

Merriman Webster uses “ obstinate or intolerant devotion to one’s own opinions and prejudices : the state of mind of a bigot”.

More and more, I’m finding your views Icehorse to be obstinate and intolerant, so maybe the term does apply /to you/.  Are you getting sucked into the alt-right vortex?

Other than being critical of those who promote Islam, which of my views do you disagree with? As far as Islam goes, I suppose that it’s ever, ever, ever so slightly possible that my views on Islam could change, but I find it extremely unlikely. As I’ve said many times before, I think organizations like the Muslim Reform Movement offer a ray of hope, but notice that they are willing to relax on the key ideas of Islam.

As for being alt-right, man, talk about a false dilemma sort of argument. Are you implying that if one is critical of Islam then one must also be alt-right?

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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21 July 2019 10:05
 

“Out, out, brief candle! Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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21 July 2019 10:06
 
Jan_CAN - 21 July 2019 09:29 AM
GAD - 21 July 2019 08:54 AM

I’m a man, god gave me the right to speak for women, look it up in the holy books.

You can have your rib back now.

No thanks, I’m quite happy with subservient women, it’s the weak pussy whipped men that pander to them that are the problem. We need to Make God Great Again and put women back in their god designed place.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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21 July 2019 10:07
 
Jan_CAN - 21 July 2019 08:28 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 08:17 AM
Jan_CAN - 21 July 2019 08:05 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 07:15 AM

“bigotry: intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.”

Yes, I’m happy to agree that I’m bigoted towards anyone who really believes that the Quran is a perfect book and that Muhammad is a perfect role model. I find those opinions to be toxic. I don’t think I’ve been coy about that.

Nope, you don’t get to distort bigotry into a good thing just to excuse your own views or behaviour.


Cambridge Dictionary
Bigotry:  the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life: religious/racial bigotry

Oxford Dictionary
Bigotry:  the state of feeling, or the act of expressing, strong, unreasonable beliefs or opinions

For the sake of discussion, I’ll grant you your definition. In fact, since you stressed the word “unreasonable”, I’d say that being critical of Islam is far from being unreasonable.  In which case I’ll amend my previous statement:

I’m happy to agree that I’m suspicious of anyone who really believes that the Quran is a perfect book and that Muhammad is a perfect role model. I find those opinions to be toxic. I don’t think I’ve been coy about that.

But the key point is that that’s not racist.

Being critical of Islam is not necessarily unreasonable; using this position to judge all Muslims is – it is unreasonable and it is bigoted.  To ignore the fact that there is an element of racism in Islamophobia is a mistake – the majority of Muslims are ‘non-white’ and racism contributes to the prejudice that they experience in the west.

Playing word games doesn’t change what a thing is.

I’m not ignoring the fact that racism is a real problem in the world. I’m also fine to agree that many people conflate Muslims with being “brown people” as LJ put it, and that those people hate Islam because they are racist. There are TONS of people in that category - we’re of a mind.

BUT, there are also non-racists who have looked into Islam, and find it repugnant. It’s not helpful - in fact it’s counterproductive - to lump legitimate critics of Islam in with racists.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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21 July 2019 10:10
 

map, one of your definitions: “Bigotry:  the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life: religious/racial bigotry.”

I’m dubious of most religions. But to varying degrees. There are billions of people with different beliefs, that I’m fine with. But the 800 million Islamic fundamentalists and the Christian extremists, I find to be very worrisome.

 
 
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