‹ First  < 2 3 4 5 6 >  Last ›
 
   
 

It’s offensive to NOT wear a Hijab? Shame on Miss Michigan?

 
Jan_CAN
 
Avatar
 
 
Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  3411
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
21 July 2019 10:14
 
icehorse - 21 July 2019 10:07 AM
Jan_CAN - 21 July 2019 08:28 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 08:17 AM

For the sake of discussion, I’ll grant you your definition. In fact, since you stressed the word “unreasonable”, I’d say that being critical of Islam is far from being unreasonable.  In which case I’ll amend my previous statement:

I’m happy to agree that I’m suspicious of anyone who really believes that the Quran is a perfect book and that Muhammad is a perfect role model. I find those opinions to be toxic. I don’t think I’ve been coy about that.

But the key point is that that’s not racist.

Being critical of Islam is not necessarily unreasonable; using this position to judge all Muslims is – it is unreasonable and it is bigoted.  To ignore the fact that there is an element of racism in Islamophobia is a mistake – the majority of Muslims are ‘non-white’ and racism contributes to the prejudice that they experience in the west.

Playing word games doesn’t change what a thing is.

I’m not ignoring the fact that racism is a real problem in the world. I’m also fine to agree that many people conflate Muslims with being “brown people” as LJ put it, and that those people hate Islam because they are racist. There are TONS of people in that category - we’re of a mind.

BUT, there are also non-racists who have looked into Islam, and find it repugnant. It’s not helpful - in fact it’s counterproductive - to lump legitimate critics of Islam in with racists.

Then act like a legitimate critic and stop perverting and ignoring facts in order to defend Islamophobes and bigots, as you did with this thread.

 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7657
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
21 July 2019 10:17
 
Jan_CAN - 21 July 2019 10:14 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 10:07 AM
Jan_CAN - 21 July 2019 08:28 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 08:17 AM

For the sake of discussion, I’ll grant you your definition. In fact, since you stressed the word “unreasonable”, I’d say that being critical of Islam is far from being unreasonable.  In which case I’ll amend my previous statement:

I’m happy to agree that I’m suspicious of anyone who really believes that the Quran is a perfect book and that Muhammad is a perfect role model. I find those opinions to be toxic. I don’t think I’ve been coy about that.

But the key point is that that’s not racist.

Being critical of Islam is not necessarily unreasonable; using this position to judge all Muslims is – it is unreasonable and it is bigoted.  To ignore the fact that there is an element of racism in Islamophobia is a mistake – the majority of Muslims are ‘non-white’ and racism contributes to the prejudice that they experience in the west.

Playing word games doesn’t change what a thing is.

I’m not ignoring the fact that racism is a real problem in the world. I’m also fine to agree that many people conflate Muslims with being “brown people” as LJ put it, and that those people hate Islam because they are racist. There are TONS of people in that category - we’re of a mind.

BUT, there are also non-racists who have looked into Islam, and find it repugnant. It’s not helpful - in fact it’s counterproductive - to lump legitimate critics of Islam in with racists.

Then act like a legitimate critic and stop perverting and ignoring facts in order to defend Islamophobes and bigots, as you did with this thread.

how did I do that? (and please, stop using the term “islamophobe”, it’s a dishonest term in it’s very design.)

 
 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  7118
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
21 July 2019 10:20
 
GAD - 21 July 2019 10:06 AM
Jan_CAN - 21 July 2019 09:29 AM
GAD - 21 July 2019 08:54 AM

I’m a man, god gave me the right to speak for women, look it up in the holy books.

You can have your rib back now.

No thanks, I’m quite happy with subservient women, it’s the weak pussy whipped men that pander to them that are the problem. We need to Make God Great Again and put women back in their god designed place.

This is premium GAD, right here…

 
 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  7118
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
21 July 2019 10:21
 
icehorse - 21 July 2019 10:03 AM

As for being alt-right, man, talk about a false dilemma sort of argument. Are you implying that if one is critical of Islam then one must also be alt-right?

If one walks the walk, and talks the talk, tho?

Likes ben shaprio and jordan peterson.  Uses alt-right talking points and newsbites frequently…
Had a laundry list of alt-right points you whipped out a few times…

/shrug.  Maybe you aren’t, but you don’t seem to mind utilizing their material.

 
 
nonverbal
 
Avatar
 
 
nonverbal
Total Posts:  1807
Joined  31-10-2015
 
 
 
21 July 2019 10:34
 
icehorse - 21 July 2019 10:10 AM

map, one of your definitions: “Bigotry:  the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life: religious/racial bigotry.”

I’m dubious of most religions. But to varying degrees. There are billions of people with different beliefs, that I’m fine with. But the 800 million Islamic fundamentalists and the Christian extremists, I find to be very worrisome.

How do you document this number?

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
Avatar
 
 
Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  3411
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
21 July 2019 10:51
 
icehorse - 21 July 2019 10:17 AM
Jan_CAN - 21 July 2019 10:14 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 10:07 AM
Jan_CAN - 21 July 2019 08:28 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 08:17 AM

For the sake of discussion, I’ll grant you your definition. In fact, since you stressed the word “unreasonable”, I’d say that being critical of Islam is far from being unreasonable.  In which case I’ll amend my previous statement:

I’m happy to agree that I’m suspicious of anyone who really believes that the Quran is a perfect book and that Muhammad is a perfect role model. I find those opinions to be toxic. I don’t think I’ve been coy about that.

But the key point is that that’s not racist.

Being critical of Islam is not necessarily unreasonable; using this position to judge all Muslims is – it is unreasonable and it is bigoted.  To ignore the fact that there is an element of racism in Islamophobia is a mistake – the majority of Muslims are ‘non-white’ and racism contributes to the prejudice that they experience in the west.

Playing word games doesn’t change what a thing is.

I’m not ignoring the fact that racism is a real problem in the world. I’m also fine to agree that many people conflate Muslims with being “brown people” as LJ put it, and that those people hate Islam because they are racist. There are TONS of people in that category - we’re of a mind.

BUT, there are also non-racists who have looked into Islam, and find it repugnant. It’s not helpful - in fact it’s counterproductive - to lump legitimate critics of Islam in with racists.

Then act like a legitimate critic and stop perverting and ignoring facts in order to defend Islamophobes and bigots, as you did with this thread.

how did I do that? (and please, stop using the term “islamophobe”, it’s a dishonest term in it’s very design.)

Go back and read the comments on this thread; it was made clear to you how, which you choose to ignore.  I think you know very well what you’re doing with threads such as these with misleading titles and where you disregard facts – don’t play innocent.

I will use the words I choose – the fact that you don’t like a word in common usage is your problem.

 

 
 
Jb8989
 
Avatar
 
 
Jb8989
Total Posts:  6373
Joined  31-01-2012
 
 
 
21 July 2019 11:20
 

Interesting. I have some thoughts:

Socioeconomic factors are not the legal cause of black and black crime in America, but they are significant contributing factors to the desperation that promotes criminal behavior like selling drugs and robbing people. Saying something like “fix your community first” conflates the two and blames black people for some things that are way out of their control. That’s not smart to say - especially for someone being paid to be fake, even if it was a good faith error in logic. Is it worth losing your job? Does it automatically make her racist?

When she condemned hijabs, she missed that head scarves are actually really fashionable, and making them more fashionable would likely diminish their religious symbolism; a cause she would probably support. So she may sound backwards, but she certainly had her freedom to disparage hijabs on a college campus in a tweet. Additionally, Ms. World is not totally removed from state and federal funding and scholarship. I imagine there’s a good case for Ms. World using their policy over-broadly to infringe on her right to say screw hijabs. The optics of having a contestant who doesn’t like Muslim women was too scary for Ms. World, even though Hijabs are not Muslim women.

 
 
GAD
 
Avatar
 
 
GAD
Total Posts:  17615
Joined  15-02-2008
 
 
 
21 July 2019 11:33
 
Jb8989 - 21 July 2019 11:20 AM

Interesting. I have some thoughts:

Socioeconomic factors are not the legal cause of black and black crime in America, but they are significant contributing factors to the desperation that promotes criminal behavior like selling drugs and robbing people. Saying something like “fix your community first” conflates the two and blames black people for some things that are way out of their control. That’s not smart to say - especially for someone being paid to be fake, even if it was a good faith error in logic. Is it worth losing your job? Does it automatically make her racist?

When she condemned hijabs, she missed that head scarves are actually really fashionable, and making them more fashionable would likely diminish their religious symbolism; a cause she would probably support. So she may sound backwards, but she certainly had her freedom to disparage hijabs on a college campus in a tweet. Additionally, Ms. World is not totally removed from state and federal funding and scholarship. I imagine there’s a good case for Ms. World using their policy over-broadly to infringe on her right to say screw hijabs. The optics of having a contestant who doesn’t like Muslim women was too scary for Ms. World, even though Hijabs are not Muslim women.

Fair enough, but her opinion that hijabs are repression of women is as valid as those who here who say they are not, and her opinion is supported by Islam while theirs is not.

 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7657
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
21 July 2019 12:00
 
Jefe - 21 July 2019 10:21 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 10:03 AM

As for being alt-right, man, talk about a false dilemma sort of argument. Are you implying that if one is critical of Islam then one must also be alt-right?

If one walks the walk, and talks the talk, tho?

Likes ben shaprio and jordan peterson.  Uses alt-right talking points and newsbites frequently…
Had a laundry list of alt-right points you whipped out a few times…

/shrug.  Maybe you aren’t, but you don’t seem to mind utilizing their material.

I agree with some of their points, disagree with others. I take each argument on its own merit. Do you? Or is it easier for you to just use ill defined categories do your thinking for you?

 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7657
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
21 July 2019 12:02
 
nonverbal - 21 July 2019 10:34 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 10:10 AM

map, one of your definitions: “Bigotry:  the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life: religious/racial bigotry.”

I’m dubious of most religions. But to varying degrees. There are billions of people with different beliefs, that I’m fine with. But the 800 million Islamic fundamentalists and the Christian extremists, I find to be very worrisome.

How do you document this number?

Islamic fundamentalists are those who think some form of Sharia is a good idea. From that definition, all you have to do is look at the results of large, world-wide polls of Muslims.

 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7657
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
21 July 2019 12:18
 
Jan_CAN - 21 July 2019 10:51 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 10:17 AM
Jan_CAN - 21 July 2019 10:14 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 10:07 AM
Jan_CAN - 21 July 2019 08:28 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 08:17 AM

For the sake of discussion, I’ll grant you your definition. In fact, since you stressed the word “unreasonable”, I’d say that being critical of Islam is far from being unreasonable.  In which case I’ll amend my previous statement:

I’m happy to agree that I’m suspicious of anyone who really believes that the Quran is a perfect book and that Muhammad is a perfect role model. I find those opinions to be toxic. I don’t think I’ve been coy about that.

But the key point is that that’s not racist.

Being critical of Islam is not necessarily unreasonable; using this position to judge all Muslims is – it is unreasonable and it is bigoted.  To ignore the fact that there is an element of racism in Islamophobia is a mistake – the majority of Muslims are ‘non-white’ and racism contributes to the prejudice that they experience in the west.

Playing word games doesn’t change what a thing is.

I’m not ignoring the fact that racism is a real problem in the world. I’m also fine to agree that many people conflate Muslims with being “brown people” as LJ put it, and that those people hate Islam because they are racist. There are TONS of people in that category - we’re of a mind.

BUT, there are also non-racists who have looked into Islam, and find it repugnant. It’s not helpful - in fact it’s counterproductive - to lump legitimate critics of Islam in with racists.

Then act like a legitimate critic and stop perverting and ignoring facts in order to defend Islamophobes and bigots, as you did with this thread.

how did I do that? (and please, stop using the term “islamophobe”, it’s a dishonest term in it’s very design.)

Go back and read the comments on this thread; it was made clear to you how, which you choose to ignore.  I think you know very well what you’re doing with threads such as these with misleading titles and where you disregard facts – don’t play innocent.

I will use the words I choose – the fact that you don’t like a word in common usage is your problem.

I’m curious to hear how you’d characterize the messages in the Quran and the degree to which you think Muhammad is a good role model?

 
 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  7118
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
21 July 2019 12:22
 
icehorse - 21 July 2019 12:00 PM
Jefe - 21 July 2019 10:21 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 10:03 AM

As for being alt-right, man, talk about a false dilemma sort of argument. Are you implying that if one is critical of Islam then one must also be alt-right?

If one walks the walk, and talks the talk, tho?

Likes ben shaprio and jordan peterson.  Uses alt-right talking points and newsbites frequently…
Had a laundry list of alt-right points you whipped out a few times…

/shrug.  Maybe you aren’t, but you don’t seem to mind utilizing their material.

I agree with some of their points, disagree with others. I take each argument on its own merit. Do you? Or is it easier for you to just use ill defined categories do your thinking for you?

I’m going to need you to provide examples of my letting ‘ill-defined categories to do my thinking for me’ to respond to this.

 

 
 
mapadofu
 
Avatar
 
 
mapadofu
Total Posts:  706
Joined  20-07-2017
 
 
 
21 July 2019 12:34
 
icehorse - 21 July 2019 12:02 PM
nonverbal - 21 July 2019 10:34 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 10:10 AM

map, one of your definitions: “Bigotry:  the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life: religious/racial bigotry.”

I’m dubious of most religions. But to varying degrees. There are billions of people with different beliefs, that I’m fine with. But the 800 million Islamic fundamentalists and the Christian extremists, I find to be very worrisome.

How do you document this number?

Islamic fundamentalists are those who think some form of Sharia is a good idea. From that definition, all you have to do is look at the results of large, world-wide polls of Muslims.

This makes me think that the 800 million figure was pulled out of the air.

 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7657
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
21 July 2019 15:20
 
mapadofu - 21 July 2019 12:34 PM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 12:02 PM
nonverbal - 21 July 2019 10:34 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 10:10 AM

map, one of your definitions: “Bigotry:  the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life: religious/racial bigotry.”

I’m dubious of most religions. But to varying degrees. There are billions of people with different beliefs, that I’m fine with. But the 800 million Islamic fundamentalists and the Christian extremists, I find to be very worrisome.

How do you document this number?

Islamic fundamentalists are those who think some form of Sharia is a good idea. From that definition, all you have to do is look at the results of large, world-wide polls of Muslims.

This makes me think that the 800 million figure was pulled out of the air.

i will give you a few google-able clues:

- there are 1.6 billion Muslims - or is it 1.8?
- find the 2013 Pew poll on Muslims and Sharia

If anything, I think you’ll find that I’m being conservative when I conclude that only 50% think sharia is the way to go.

 
 
icehorse
 
Avatar
 
 
icehorse
Total Posts:  7657
Joined  22-02-2014
 
 
 
21 July 2019 15:21
 
Jefe - 21 July 2019 12:22 PM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 12:00 PM
Jefe - 21 July 2019 10:21 AM
icehorse - 21 July 2019 10:03 AM

As for being alt-right, man, talk about a false dilemma sort of argument. Are you implying that if one is critical of Islam then one must also be alt-right?

If one walks the walk, and talks the talk, tho?

Likes ben shaprio and jordan peterson.  Uses alt-right talking points and newsbites frequently…
Had a laundry list of alt-right points you whipped out a few times…

/shrug.  Maybe you aren’t, but you don’t seem to mind utilizing their material.

I agree with some of their points, disagree with others. I take each argument on its own merit. Do you? Or is it easier for you to just use ill defined categories do your thinking for you?

I’m going to need you to provide examples of my letting ‘ill-defined categories to do my thinking for me’ to respond to this.

Start with your own post #49

 
 
‹ First  < 2 3 4 5 6 >  Last ›