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Mueller hearing - did I miss something?

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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25 July 2019 08:51
 

I was having a discussion with a coworker this morning about yesterday’s Mueller hearing.  His contention is that “we know that Trump committed a crime, and that Mueller can’t indict him because he’s a sitting president”.  My contention is that we don’t know if the president committed a crime - at least not in Mueller’s view.  There was a misleading quote from the hearing on Jimmy Kimmel last night where the question to Mueller was “could the president be brought up on charges after he leaves office?” and the answer was “yes”.  I think this confused people and was a word game.  Yes, the president could be brought up on charges.  Whether he SHOULD be is a different question and one that Mueller’s team did not answer.

Who is correct?  Did Mueller ever say that the president committed a crime?

 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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25 July 2019 08:58
 

Since there are outstanding indictments filed in non D.C. districts, and because Mueller was unable to comment upon those indictments, the answer ‘yes’ seems accurate to me.

 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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25 July 2019 09:09
 
Jefe - 25 July 2019 08:58 AM

Since there are outstanding indictments filed in non D.C. districts, and because Mueller was unable to comment upon those indictments, the answer ‘yes’ seems accurate to me.

It’s just as accurate as ‘no’.  The true answer he gave in his report (and testimony yesterday) was that they did not make a determination.

 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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25 July 2019 10:23
 
DEGENERATEON - 25 July 2019 08:51 AM

I was having a discussion with a coworker this morning about yesterday’s Mueller hearing.  His contention is that “we know that Trump committed a crime, and that Mueller can’t indict him because he’s a sitting president”.  My contention is that we don’t know if the president committed a crime - at least not in Mueller’s view.  There was a misleading quote from the hearing on Jimmy Kimmel last night where the question to Mueller was “could the president be brought up on charges after he leaves office?” and the answer was “yes”.  I think this confused people and was a word game.  Yes, the president could be brought up on charges.  Whether he SHOULD be is a different question and one that Mueller’s team did not answer.

Who is correct?  Did Mueller ever say that the president committed a crime?

https://www.newyorker.com/news/current/mueller-testimony-the-president-was-not-exculpated

“Within minutes of beginning his testimony before Congress on Wednesday, Robert Mueller, the former special counsel, directly contradicted one of President Donald Trump’s primary claims regarding the Mueller investigation. Speaking in lawyerly terms, Mueller said that his report had not exonerated the President on allegations of obstruction of justice.

“The President was not exculpated for the acts that he allegedly committed,” Mueller said.

In a series of exchanges with the House Judiciary Committee chairman, Jerry Nadler, and other Democrats, Mueller also confirmed the basic outlines of his report. He said that the Russians engaged in sweeping interference in the 2016 election. And he noted that Trump’s campaign manager shared campaign strategy with a suspected Russian operative. Nadler repeatedly pressed Mueller, however, about his findings on obstruction.

“The President has repeatedly claimed that your report found there was no obstruction, and that it completely and totally exonerated him,” Nadler said. “But that is not what your report said, is it?”

“Correct, that is not what the report said,” Mueller replied.”

Q:  “Is obstruction of justice a felony or misdemeanor?”

“Obstruction of justice is a felony charge and penalties can include a fine, up to five years in prison or both.Feb 10, 2018”

 

[ Edited: 25 July 2019 10:29 by unsmoked]
 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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25 July 2019 10:28
 

Does it really matter. The people who hate Trump don’t care if he really did or didn’t do it, just what they can get away with, and the people love who love Trump don’t care if he really did or didn’t do it, just what they can get away with. The bottom line is that Trump is a despicable scumbag piece of shit whether he did or didn’t do it.

 
 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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25 July 2019 10:39
 
GAD - 25 July 2019 10:28 AM

Does it really matter. The people who hate Trump don’t care if he really did or didn’t do it, just what they can get away with, and the people love who love Trump don’t care if he really did or didn’t do it, just what they can get away with. The bottom line is that Trump is a despicable scumbag piece of shit whether he did or didn’t do it.

Listening to the Republicans attack Mueller and his report, some old synapses lit up and the word ‘weasel’ came to mind.

weasel - Urban Dictionary
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=weasel
One who is particularly cunning, conniving, shifty, sneaky, scheming and down right sly. Weasels are known for their ability to adapt to any situation and to .

Q:  “Is obstruction of justice a felony or misdemeanor?”

“Obstruction of justice is a felony charge and penalties can include a fine, up to five years in prison or both.”  -  Feb 10, 2018”

 

[ Edited: 25 July 2019 10:41 by unsmoked]
 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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25 July 2019 11:04
 

The investigation stopped short of summarizing that trump had committed a crime. It does plainly point out that he is a very naughty boy who falls under Congress’s jurisdiction.

From page 58: This little morsel stood alone between large areas of black-box redaction…
“Candidate trump can be heard off camera making graphic statements about women.”

Any possible indictment now held in check by JD policy can be pursued after the President’s term in office. A second term could outlast the statute of limitations for any first term crimes. Odds are he will be charged with fresh second-term crimes if we’re crazy enough to elect him again.

The hearings were as dull and pointless as they should have been. The current batch of reps on both sides were equally disappointing. There were silly dramatic re-enactments from the dems and manly dramatic bluster from the repubs.

Many attempted to be clever. One repubster invented the “power of exoneration”, accused Mueller of wielding it, and then claimed no such power exists. What a brainy and precocious fellow!

The most interesting moment of the day was on PBS when the split-screen had two women in the background with half their faces showing in the frame. For a moment or so, their faces lined up into one. That was cool.

 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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25 July 2019 12:06
 

Trump has committed multiple crimes during his career - but always managed to settle, often without an admission of guilt.

Trump is an unindicted co-conspirator in the Michael Cohen case, which means he can be charged for that the moment he is no longer president.

Mueller acknowledged that the questions Trump answered in writing were under oath, and some were lies - this means proof that Trump lied under oath, another crime for which he can be charged the moment he steps down.

On top of that, there are 6-10 strong cases of Obstruction, all chargeable.

The only question is: will Trump stay long enough in Office to run out the Statutes of Limitation ?

 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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25 July 2019 12:24
 
GAD - 25 July 2019 10:28 AM

Does it really matter. The people who hate Trump don’t care if he really did or didn’t do it, just what they can get away with, and the people love who love Trump don’t care if he really did or didn’t do it, just what they can get away with. The bottom line is that Trump is a despicable scumbag piece of shit whether he did or didn’t do it.

It doesn’t really matter, but for the purposes of a wager I think the truth is that Mueller never said he committed a crime.  That’s the main point I was trying to get across to my coworker, that the bit on Jimmy Kimmel where Mueller said Trump could be charged when he leaves office does NOT mean he believes he should be charged.  It’s very different.

“The most interesting moment of the day was on PBS when the split-screen had two women in the background with half their faces showing in the frame. For a moment or so, their faces lined up into one. That was cool.”

It’s a worthless political dog and pony show, might as well enjoy some part of it.  Shame I missed that part.

 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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25 July 2019 22:45
 
DEGENERATEON - 25 July 2019 12:24 PM
GAD - 25 July 2019 10:28 AM

Does it really matter. The people who hate Trump don’t care if he really did or didn’t do it, just what they can get away with, and the people love who love Trump don’t care if he really did or didn’t do it, just what they can get away with. The bottom line is that Trump is a despicable scumbag piece of shit whether he did or didn’t do it.

It doesn’t really matter, but for the purposes of a wager I think the truth is that Mueller never said he committed a crime.  That’s the main point I was trying to get across to my coworker, that the bit on Jimmy Kimmel where Mueller said Trump could be charged when he leaves office does NOT mean he believes he should be charged.  It’s very different.

“The most interesting moment of the day was on PBS when the split-screen had two women in the background with half their faces showing in the frame. For a moment or so, their faces lined up into one. That was cool.”

It’s a worthless political dog and pony show, might as well enjoy some part of it.  Shame I missed that part.

seems you don’t understand the Mueller Report AT ALL.

we don’t know whether Mueller would or wouldn’t indict, because he made it clear that he deliberately decided not to think about it because he couldn’t do it anyways.

If we had a situation where Mueller gets to ask himself (with no political pressure): do I want to indict Trump, the question is only whether he can make it stick, not whether Trump violated laws, norms and conspired with Russia to a degree that make Mueller clearly uncomfortable.
And if Mueller did decide to indict Trump, you know what he would do (as well as any other prosecutor) ?
Do an interview with him under oath, something Trump refused to do and would have fought all the way to the Supreme Court not to do.
How many times do you think Trump would lie under oath?


No, if the next administration doesn’t want to let bygones be bygones (as Obama did with the crimes of Bush and Cheney), Trump will get criminally convicted once out of office.

[ Edited: 25 July 2019 22:48 by Twissel]
 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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26 July 2019 06:40
 

Mueller never said that Trump committed a crime. In the case of “collusion,” he found insufficient evidence; in the case of obstruction of justice, he never intended to say one way or another. Rather, he described incidents that might or might not rise to the level of obstruction, leaving it to congress to make that determination.

I still say Mueller is a stand-up guy, but listening to him testify made me wonder just how involved he personally was in the investigation, and how much he delegated to politically motivated subordinates.

 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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26 July 2019 07:54
 

It won’t be Mueller making the indictments - but plenty of prosecutors, including the SDNY have mentioned that they want to Trump to testify in the cases against his associates. And the chance of Trump not lying under oath is zero.

 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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26 July 2019 07:58
 
Twissel - 25 July 2019 10:45 PM
DEGENERATEON - 25 July 2019 12:24 PM
GAD - 25 July 2019 10:28 AM

Does it really matter. The people who hate Trump don’t care if he really did or didn’t do it, just what they can get away with, and the people love who love Trump don’t care if he really did or didn’t do it, just what they can get away with. The bottom line is that Trump is a despicable scumbag piece of shit whether he did or didn’t do it.

It doesn’t really matter, but for the purposes of a wager I think the truth is that Mueller never said he committed a crime.  That’s the main point I was trying to get across to my coworker, that the bit on Jimmy Kimmel where Mueller said Trump could be charged when he leaves office does NOT mean he believes he should be charged.  It’s very different.

“The most interesting moment of the day was on PBS when the split-screen had two women in the background with half their faces showing in the frame. For a moment or so, their faces lined up into one. That was cool.”

It’s a worthless political dog and pony show, might as well enjoy some part of it.  Shame I missed that part.

seems you don’t understand the Mueller Report AT ALL.

we don’t know whether Mueller would or wouldn’t indict, because he made it clear that he deliberately decided not to think about it because he couldn’t do it anyways.

If we had a situation where Mueller gets to ask himself (with no political pressure): do I want to indict Trump, the question is only whether he can make it stick, not whether Trump violated laws, norms and conspired with Russia to a degree that make Mueller clearly uncomfortable.
And if Mueller did decide to indict Trump, you know what he would do (as well as any other prosecutor) ?
Do an interview with him under oath, something Trump refused to do and would have fought all the way to the Supreme Court not to do.
How many times do you think Trump would lie under oath?


No, if the next administration doesn’t want to let bygones be bygones (as Obama did with the crimes of Bush and Cheney), Trump will get criminally convicted once out of office.

I don’t understand the Mueller report AT ALL?  Please enlighten me.  What have I said that would show a gross misunderstanding of what the report stated?  I disagreed that Mueller stated that Trump committed a crime.  Am I wrong?  If so, send me the video.

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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26 July 2019 08:04
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 26 July 2019 06:40 AM

Mueller never said that Trump committed a crime. In the case of “collusion,” he found insufficient evidence; in the case of obstruction of justice, he never intended to say one way or another.

Completely agree.  According to Twissel, we’re on a different planet.

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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26 July 2019 19:11
 

I’m over here having a nice evening drink, and I’m thinking “am I insane?”.  Because I thought I had an understanding of what’s going on with this report, but there’s someone who thinks my rationale is completely bonkers.  It seems to me that Nhoj, ASD, myself, and others have the same interpretation of what was outlined in the report.  But Twissel is over here talking turkey.  So where you at?  What’s cooking?

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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26 July 2019 21:36
 

Ok so now I’m out of whiskey and I’m drinking the wife’s sangria spritzers.  I’m gonna have to hear the old “who drank up all the liquor in here?” tomorrow.  Just waiting around for a reply from twissel like an idiot.  Bah, I’m going to bed.  Anyway twis if you wanna defend your claim that I’ve got some wild reading comprehension problem then I’m all ears.

 
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