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College students unclear about Free Speech - FIRE

 
Garret
 
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Garret
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08 August 2019 13:33
 
icehorse - 08 August 2019 01:20 PM

Perhaps you’re debating in good faith. Perhaps you and I simply cannot communicate. Once again, I feel as though you’re not staying on topic. I’m willing to chalk it up to miscommunication. But given that one of my main gigs is technical editor, I’m not willing to fall on my sword.

In good faith, I want to try to rewind a few posts. I would summarize where we were as:

Garret: Hate speech can be harmful.
icehorse: Agreed, but so can censorship.
Garret: Prove that censorship can be harmful.

Now this last request seemed inappropriate to me. It seemed like sea-lioning. And I’m not really interested in dissecting Nazi Germany. So if you need for me to prove that censorship can be harmful, I have better things to do. If I’ve missed your point, I’m open to hearing you out.

I provided evidence that hate speech is harmful.

You countered by claiming that the censorship of Nazi Germany was harmful.  Okay… show your work.  How was it harmful?  What effect did censorship have?  How do we know that the effect was caused by censorship?

Also, it’s really rich that you’re going to accuse me of sea-lioning when you’ve asked for evidence previously in this thread.  Either it’s okay to ask for evidence in this conversation, or it isn’t.  You don’t get to ask me for evidence, and then accuse me of being a troll when I do the same to you.  Unless you’re admitting that you were trolling me earlier when you did it, in which case I will accept your accusation of sea-lioning (conditional on your acceptance of engaging in the same behavior).

And I didn’t even accuse you of how disingenuous it is to compare not allowing Richard Spencer to speak at a university to the censorship engaged in by the Nazi state.  In fact, I’m still not accusing you of it.  I’m willing to follow you on your rabbit hole.  No one is preventing Spencer from writing his own books, making youtube videos, or hosting his own website.  If I were advocating a true Nazi-style censorship, I’d be advocating for the state confiscation of his material wealth in order to prevent him from getting his message out.  But I didn’t point out how ridiculous your comparison was.  I was willing to engage with you where you were going.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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08 August 2019 13:39
 

Again, you’re off in a different direction. I will keep trying - for a bit longer - but as I just said, life is too short to try to convince you that censorship is harmful. If that’s what you want me to prove, I’ll call this conversation over.

 
 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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08 August 2019 13:43
 

You brought up Nazi Germany Mr. Horse.  That made it fair game.

 
 
Garret
 
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Garret
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08 August 2019 13:43
 

You’ve proposed that we should compare the harm of hate speech versus the harm of censorship, correct?

If we can’t establish that harm is caused by censorship, let alone the amount of harm, how do we make this comparison?

If you can’t back up the claim that censorship is harmful, I don’t see how you can back up the claim that it is MORE harmful than hate speech, especially when I’ve actually linked sources that could help us evaluate how harmful hate speech is.

If you can’t back up your claim with evidence, then all you have is your opinion.  I don’t see why I should take your opinion as being worth more than evidence on this issue.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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08 August 2019 13:55
 
Garret - 08 August 2019 01:43 PM

You’ve proposed that we should compare the harm of hate speech versus the harm of censorship, correct?

If we can’t establish that harm is caused by censorship, let alone the amount of harm, how do we make this comparison?

If you can’t back up the claim that censorship is harmful, I don’t see how you can back up the claim that it is MORE harmful than hate speech, especially when I’ve actually linked sources that could help us evaluate how harmful hate speech is.

If you can’t back up your claim with evidence, then all you have is your opinion.  I don’t see why I should take your opinion as being worth more than evidence on this issue.

I think it would be a struggle for ANYONE to attempt to quantify either of these issues accurately. So of course, all any of us has is opinions and intuitions.

 
 
Garret
 
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Garret
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08 August 2019 13:59
 

I haven’t relied on my opinion.  I’ve presented evidence to support my claims.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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08 August 2019 13:59
 
LadyJane - 08 August 2019 01:43 PM

You brought up Nazi Germany Mr. Horse.  That made it fair game.

I never said it wasn’t fair game. I merely indicated what I’d be interested in discussing.

 
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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08 August 2019 14:01
 
Garret - 08 August 2019 01:59 PM

I haven’t relied on my opinion.  I’ve presented evidence to support my claims.

good for you. Did you provide a bottom line in U.S. dollars? If not, how would you propose that we make such a comparison?

Let me put it this way: Hate speech is not new. Our founding fathers decided that freedom of speech was more important than curtailing hate speech. I agree with them.

[ Edited: 08 August 2019 14:03 by icehorse]
 
 
Garret
 
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Garret
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08 August 2019 14:04
 

Well, so far you haven’t presented me evidence to compare it against.

An appeal to authority.

However will I shake off such a viscously logically sound argument.

[ Edited: 08 August 2019 14:06 by Garret]
 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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09 August 2019 12:12
 
Garret - 08 August 2019 02:04 PM

Well, so far you haven’t presented me evidence to compare it against.

An appeal to authority.

However will I shake off such a viscously logically sound argument.

I’ve asked you to put your money where your mouth is. But in reality, I think the point is that your attempts to quantify these values are unattainable.

I value free speech over the downsides of speech that might cause psychological trauma.
You appear to place a higher value on avoiding the trauma created by hate speech than you do the downsides of censorship.

We appear to prioritize our values differently. I don’t think there is any useful way to quantify those value priorities.

 
 
Garret
 
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Garret
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09 August 2019 12:34
 

In which post have I advocated for censorship?

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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09 August 2019 12:38
 
Garret - 09 August 2019 12:34 PM

In which post have I advocated for censorship?

You cannot eat your cake and have it too. If you want to limit hate propaganda you are advocating some new form of censorship.

 
 
Garret
 
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Garret
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09 August 2019 12:41
 

I’m going to repeat my question, where have I actually advocated for censorship?

Maybe you have a problem with assuming things about me.

 
icehorse
 
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icehorse
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09 August 2019 12:48
 
Garret - 09 August 2019 12:41 PM

I’m going to repeat my question, where have I actually advocated for censorship?

Maybe you have a problem with assuming things about me.

Ok, let’s try this a different way: Are you advocating for limiting hate propaganda? If so, by what means?

 
 
Garret
 
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Garret
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09 August 2019 12:59
 

Well, in the case of your original post, I have zero interest in using police or campus security to prevent a protest that would disrupt hate speech.

I’m also fine with a university not allowing such speakers to be invited to events.

Note, I haven’t said that the speaker can’t write/publish a book, be interviewed on TV, rent their own hall to give a speech, or host videos on the internet at their own expense.

 
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