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El Paso

 
Skipshot
 
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Skipshot
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05 August 2019 08:21
 
LadyJane - 05 August 2019 08:06 AM
Skipshot - 05 August 2019 07:46 AM
LadyJane - 05 August 2019 07:07 AM

I think every American kid should get a handgun and an open carry permit when they turn eighteen.  Just to level the playing field..

If we want the law changed then limit the issue of weapons to minorities only and watch how fast white America changes its gun laws.

As our Canadian representative on the forum, can you explain how your country deals with a disarmed citizenry?  Is there constant chaos as law-ignoring, gun-toting criminals rule your country?  I am referencing the canard from the gun-rights group, “If guns are outlawed, then only outlaws will have guns.”

We have about as many guns per capita as you folks believe it or not.  The vast majority are just rifles and shotguns.  Assault type weaponry is basically non existent and hand guns are hard to procure without justification.

Our primary method of self defence relies on disarming the enemy with humour.  It’s usually enough to keep the peace.

Does Canada give its citizens a right to bear arms like the USA?  If not, how do you keep your government from becoming a tyranny?

 
LadyJane
 
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LadyJane
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05 August 2019 08:39
 
Skipshot - 05 August 2019 08:21 AM
LadyJane - 05 August 2019 08:06 AM
Skipshot - 05 August 2019 07:46 AM
LadyJane - 05 August 2019 07:07 AM

I think every American kid should get a handgun and an open carry permit when they turn eighteen.  Just to level the playing field..

If we want the law changed then limit the issue of weapons to minorities only and watch how fast white America changes its gun laws.

As our Canadian representative on the forum, can you explain how your country deals with a disarmed citizenry?  Is there constant chaos as law-ignoring, gun-toting criminals rule your country?  I am referencing the canard from the gun-rights group, “If guns are outlawed, then only outlaws will have guns.”

We have about as many guns per capita as you folks believe it or not.  The vast majority are just rifles and shotguns.  Assault type weaponry is basically non existent and hand guns are hard to procure without justification.

Our primary method of self defence relies on disarming the enemy with humour.  It’s usually enough to keep the peace.

Does Canada give its citizens a right to bear arms like the USA?  If not, how do you keep your government from becoming a tyranny?

Where you have Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness we have Peace, Order and Good Government. 

We didn’t need a revolution to break away from Britain.  We just asked nicely.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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05 August 2019 08:54
 
Skipshot - 05 August 2019 08:21 AM
LadyJane - 05 August 2019 08:06 AM
Skipshot - 05 August 2019 07:46 AM
LadyJane - 05 August 2019 07:07 AM

I think every American kid should get a handgun and an open carry permit when they turn eighteen.  Just to level the playing field..

If we want the law changed then limit the issue of weapons to minorities only and watch how fast white America changes its gun laws.

As our Canadian representative on the forum, can you explain how your country deals with a disarmed citizenry?  Is there constant chaos as law-ignoring, gun-toting criminals rule your country?  I am referencing the canard from the gun-rights group, “If guns are outlawed, then only outlaws will have guns.”

We have about as many guns per capita as you folks believe it or not.  The vast majority are just rifles and shotguns.  Assault type weaponry is basically non existent and hand guns are hard to procure without justification.

Our primary method of self defence relies on disarming the enemy with humour.  It’s usually enough to keep the peace.

Does Canada give its citizens a right to bear arms like the USA?  If not, how do you keep your government from becoming a tyranny?

https://www.vox.com/2014/10/24/7047547/canada-gun-law-us-comparison

What we have is less paranoia about tyranny (and as a side effect, less leaning-into tyrannical party policies).
Possibly a greater understanding (per individual) for the need for governance.

 

 
 
Skipshot
 
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Skipshot
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05 August 2019 09:19
 

Thanks for the Canadian perspective.

How does Canada prevent illegal American guns from entering? 

How does Canada deal with the black market of weapons? 

Surely criminals have the means to obtain, illegally of course, any American weapon they want, so what are the stats about illegal guns used in crime?  Americans fear being outgunned, and locking a rifle or shotgun in a separate place in the house, not being able to carry openly or concealed leaves the door wide open for criminals with greater firepower to overwhelm anyone at any time.  How do Canadians handle the fear with all these restrictions?

Americans do not believe government works in the people’s best interest, and would become a tyranny immediately upon surrendering our weapons.  Aside from using humor and a fundamental (i.e. naive) belief in the goodness of a democratically elected government, really, how does Canada, or any other democratic country prevent tyranny?

America is an outlier when it comes to guns.  It is the only country which gives its citizens the right to keep and bear arms.  A right, not a privilege.  And that right is specified that it may not be infringed, which makes it strange that Americans are willing to allow certain infringements which essentially limit arms to semi-automatic guns.  I’m surprised the NRA does not challenge the constitutionality of that infringement, and many others.

 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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05 August 2019 09:37
 
Skipshot - 05 August 2019 09:19 AM

Thanks for the Canadian perspective.

How does Canada prevent illegal American guns from entering?

Presumably, border seizure of unauthorized guns.  Some probably leak through.

Skipshot - 05 August 2019 09:19 AM

How does Canada deal with the black market of weapons?

I don’t know.

Skipshot - 05 August 2019 09:19 AM

Surely criminals have the means to obtain, illegally of course, any American weapon they want, so what are the stats about illegal guns used in crime?

I could not find these stats, but any illegally obtained US guns would have to be smuggled into canada past border guards.

Skipshot - 05 August 2019 09:19 AM

Americans fear being outgunned, and locking a rifle or shotgun in a separate place in the house, not being able to carry openly or concealed leaves the door wide open for criminals with greater firepower to overwhelm anyone at any time.  How do Canadians handle the fear with all these restrictions?

I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I experience no such fears. (I live in a pretty peaceful suburb, and know and like many of my neighbors.  We treat each other kindly, not as strangers to distrust.)

Skipshot - 05 August 2019 09:19 AM

Americans do not believe government works in the people’s best interest, and would become a tyranny immediately upon surrendering our weapons.

That seems like one of the US’s biggest problems, to me.

Skipshot - 05 August 2019 09:19 AM

Aside from using humor and a fundamental (i.e. naive) belief in the goodness of a democratically elected government, really, how does Canada, or any other democratic country prevent tyranny?

Checks, balances, term limits, regular elections, not being paranoid about government over-reach, demanding transparency and oversight.  A few other things.  (The difference in culture surrounding government distrust is huge…)

Skipshot - 05 August 2019 09:19 AM

America is an outlier when it comes to guns.  It is the only country which gives its citizens the right to keep and bear arms.  A right, not a privilege.

AND it’s gun violence is orders of magnitude higher.
AND it’s complacency toward gun violence seems to be orders of magnitude higher.
When schools are being ‘hardened’ so that more children might survive a shooting incident at a school, it seems to me that something has gone off the rails.

Skipshot - 05 August 2019 09:19 AM

And that right is specified that it may not be infringed, which makes it strange that Americans are willing to allow certain infringements which essentially limit arms to semi-automatic guns.  I’m surprised the NRA does not challenge the constitutionality of that infringement, and many others.

I’m sure that some members of US congress have their tongues so far up the NRA arses, that they are tasting tonsils.
In some ways, the lobby system of the US is so broken that governance is regularly bought and sold.  Which probably contributes to the impression of ineffective governance.  Lobby and Senate reform, to me, seem to be very important to repairing some of the faults of the US system.

These are, of course, merely my opinions, and you know what those are worth.

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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05 August 2019 09:52
 

Apparently the ownership of guns doesn’t prevent people like Trump from being elected and bringing us closer to tyranny.  El Paso was a safe city until a white nationalist, inspired and empowered by Trump, decided to come and massacre moms and kids shopping on a no-sales tax weekend getting school supplies.  He targeted the folks that are supposed to be endangering us, but he was the one endangering us, and the President has given him license to do so.

 
Celal
 
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Celal
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05 August 2019 10:24
 
EN - 05 August 2019 09:52 AM

Apparently the ownership of guns doesn’t prevent people like Trump from being elected and bringing us closer to tyranny.  El Paso was a safe city until a white nationalist, inspired and empowered by Trump, decided to come and massacre moms and kids shopping on a no-sales tax weekend getting school supplies.  He targeted the folks that are supposed to be endangering us, but he was the one endangering us, and the President has given him license to do so.

A pathetic post feigning outrage and grief for the dead whilst caring little about the facts but own failed ideology.

Dude - the Dayton and El Paso shooters were committed leftists. The anti-Trumpers wanted socialism just like you do. But it is no surprise when you get your lead from your guy Beto who failed to get elected in his own State and thinks he can now run for President and polling %0. You are just as delusional as that moron as he links Trump to your Democrats resorting to violence.

 

 

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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05 August 2019 11:02
 
Skipshot - 05 August 2019 09:19 AM

Thanks for the Canadian perspective.

How does Canada prevent illegal American guns from entering? 

How does Canada deal with the black market of weapons? 

Surely criminals have the means to obtain, illegally of course, any American weapon they want, so what are the stats about illegal guns used in crime?  Americans fear being outgunned, and locking a rifle or shotgun in a separate place in the house, not being able to carry openly or concealed leaves the door wide open for criminals with greater firepower to overwhelm anyone at any time.  How do Canadians handle the fear with all these restrictions?

Americans do not believe government works in the people’s best interest, and would become a tyranny immediately upon surrendering our weapons.  Aside from using humor and a fundamental (i.e. naive) belief in the goodness of a democratically elected government, really, how does Canada, or any other democratic country prevent tyranny?

America is an outlier when it comes to guns.  It is the only country which gives its citizens the right to keep and bear arms.  A right, not a privilege.  And that right is specified that it may not be infringed, which makes it strange that Americans are willing to allow certain infringements which essentially limit arms to semi-automatic guns.  I’m surprised the NRA does not challenge the constitutionality of that infringement, and many others.

In addition to what Jefe has said ...

There is no doubt that illegal guns cross the border, but apparently the percentage has dropped in recent years with more of these illegal weapons being sold within Canada.  A quick google search shows that the statistics are not precise as it can be difficult to track the origin of illegal weapons.  Although connected criminals may be able to more easily obtain illegal weapons (e.g. handguns), it would be more difficult for the mentally disturbed person to get their hands on them, especially assault weapons as these are more rare.

Although I wouldn’t have a firearm in my home, I know many people who do.  But these are used for hunting or owned by those in rural areas to protect crops/livestock from ‘pest animals’.  The general public does not experience the fear or feel the need that they must protect themselves.  The petty thief and burglar is usually unarmed, the other driver in the car when we have a fender-bender is unarmed, the intoxicated party-goer who is becoming belligerent is unarmed, etc.  Of course we do have crime and violence in Canada, but it’s a matter of scale.  As I see it, the ‘tyranny’ that most affects Americans is in regards to their safety from each other due to the abundance of the wrong firearms in the wrong hands.  Any governmental tyranny must be gotten rid of by the rule of law and/or election.  Perhaps the fact that “Americans do not believe government works in the people’s best interest” has become a self-fulfilling prophesy.  Low expectations.

 

 
 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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05 August 2019 11:05
 
EN - 05 August 2019 09:52 AM

Apparently the ownership of guns doesn’t prevent people like Trump from being elected and bringing us closer to tyranny.  El Paso was a safe city until a white nationalist, inspired and empowered by Trump, decided to come and massacre moms and kids shopping on a no-sales tax weekend getting school supplies.  He targeted the folks that are supposed to be endangering us, but he was the one endangering us, and the President has given him license to do so.

https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/john-mccain-donald-trump-immigration-phoenix-120216

“Donald Trump “fired up the crazies” in his state when he held a rally in Phoenix last weekend, Arizona Sen. John McCain said in a recent interview. During that appearance (and others last weekend), Trump was joined by the father of Jamiel Shaw, who was killed by an undocumented immigrant.

Trump has tapped into “some anger” in the state over the conditions at the border, McCain told The New Yorker’s Ryan Lizza in an article published Thursday.

“It’s very bad,” the Republican senator said. “This performance with our friend out in Phoenix is very hurtful to me,” McCain said. “Because what he did was he fired up the crazies.”

Trump’s latest polling numbers would seem to suggest that his message is resonating with Republican voters.”

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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05 August 2019 11:20
 
Celal - 05 August 2019 10:24 AM
EN - 05 August 2019 09:52 AM

Apparently the ownership of guns doesn’t prevent people like Trump from being elected and bringing us closer to tyranny.  El Paso was a safe city until a white nationalist, inspired and empowered by Trump, decided to come and massacre moms and kids shopping on a no-sales tax weekend getting school supplies.  He targeted the folks that are supposed to be endangering us, but he was the one endangering us, and the President has given him license to do so.

A pathetic post feigning outrage and grief for the dead whilst caring little about the facts but own failed ideology.

Dude - the Dayton and El Paso shooters were committed leftists. The anti-Trumpers wanted socialism just like you do. But it is no surprise when you get your lead from your guy Beto who failed to get elected in his own State and thinks he can now run for President and polling %0. You are just as delusional as that moron as he links Trump to your Democrats resorting to violence.

NO.  Genuine compassion expressed by someone who cares about his fellow humans, which can be felt especially when such tragedies hit so close to home.

The specific details of the shooter’s politics are not important; what does matter is what led him to commit such an atrocity, and it appears clear that it was racism.  As EN says, “inspired and empowered by Trump”. 

 

 
 
Celal
 
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Celal
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05 August 2019 12:03
 
Jan_CAN - 05 August 2019 11:20 AM
Celal - 05 August 2019 10:24 AM
EN - 05 August 2019 09:52 AM

Apparently the ownership of guns doesn’t prevent people like Trump from being elected and bringing us closer to tyranny.  El Paso was a safe city until a white nationalist, inspired and empowered by Trump, decided to come and massacre moms and kids shopping on a no-sales tax weekend getting school supplies.  He targeted the folks that are supposed to be endangering us, but he was the one endangering us, and the President has given him license to do so.

A pathetic post feigning outrage and grief for the dead whilst caring little about the facts but own failed ideology.

Dude - the Dayton and El Paso shooters were committed leftists. The anti-Trumpers wanted socialism just like you do. But it is no surprise when you get your lead from your guy Beto who failed to get elected in his own State and thinks he can now run for President and polling %0. You are just as delusional as that moron as he links Trump to your Democrats resorting to violence.

NO.  Genuine compassion expressed by someone who cares about his fellow humans, which can be felt especially when such tragedies hit so close to home.

The specific details of the shooter’s politics are not important; what does matter is what led him to commit such an atrocity, and it appears clear that it was racism.  As EN says, “inspired and empowered by Trump”.

So anything that doesn’t fit your narrative is deemed unimportant! 

Still by your lame logic, same idea could be applied to President Obama’s rhetoric against law enforcement following the deaths of police officers or more than 14 mass shootings during his admin.  I’m sure you will want to rethink that, assuming you thought at all in the first place.

 
EN
 
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EN
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05 August 2019 13:12
 
Celal - 05 August 2019 10:24 AM
EN - 05 August 2019 09:52 AM

Apparently the ownership of guns doesn’t prevent people like Trump from being elected and bringing us closer to tyranny.  El Paso was a safe city until a white nationalist, inspired and empowered by Trump, decided to come and massacre moms and kids shopping on a no-sales tax weekend getting school supplies.  He targeted the folks that are supposed to be endangering us, but he was the one endangering us, and the President has given him license to do so.

A pathetic post feigning outrage and grief for the dead whilst caring little about the facts but own failed ideology.

Dude - the Dayton and El Paso shooters were committed leftists. The anti-Trumpers wanted socialism just like you do. But it is no surprise when you get your lead from your guy Beto who failed to get elected in his own State and thinks he can now run for President and polling %0. You are just as delusional as that moron as he links Trump to your Democrats resorting to violence.

 

You are blind as a bat if you don’t think that Trump is not enabling white nationalist racists.  It doesn’t matter whether their politics are left or right.  They hate non-whites and Trump gives them license to spew their hatred. He has made it acceptable.  Your blind subservience to that asshole has ruined your eyesight and your moral compass.

 
EN
 
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EN
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05 August 2019 13:18
Celal
 
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Celal
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05 August 2019 13:43
 
EN - 05 August 2019 01:12 PM
Celal - 05 August 2019 10:24 AM
EN - 05 August 2019 09:52 AM

Apparently the ownership of guns doesn’t prevent people like Trump from being elected and bringing us closer to tyranny.  El Paso was a safe city until a white nationalist, inspired and empowered by Trump, decided to come and massacre moms and kids shopping on a no-sales tax weekend getting school supplies.  He targeted the folks that are supposed to be endangering us, but he was the one endangering us, and the President has given him license to do so.

A pathetic post feigning outrage and grief for the dead whilst caring little about the facts but own failed ideology.

Dude - the Dayton and El Paso shooters were committed leftists. The anti-Trumpers wanted socialism just like you do. But it is no surprise when you get your lead from your guy Beto who failed to get elected in his own State and thinks he can now run for President and polling %0. You are just as delusional as that moron as he links Trump to your Democrats resorting to violence.

 

You are blind as a bat if you don’t think that Trump is not enabling white nationalist racists.  It doesn’t matter whether their politics are left or right.  They hate non-whites and Trump gives them license to spew their hatred. He has made it acceptable.  Your blind subservience to that asshole has ruined your eyesight and your moral compass.

So the El Paso shooter was a socialist - white supremacist. The Dayton shooter was a Leftist. The ICE bomber quoted AOC. The Congressional baseball game shooter was a Bernie bro. But according to the media and rabid ideologues like you, all the violence is Trump’s fault. Disgusting dishonesty. What a piece of work you turned out to be! Pathetic.

 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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05 August 2019 14:14
 
Jan_CAN - 04 August 2019 11:48 PM
Antisocialdarwinist - 04 August 2019 09:38 PM
Skipshot - 04 August 2019 08:57 PM
Antisocialdarwinist - 04 August 2019 04:33 PM
Jan_CAN - 04 August 2019 11:06 AM
EN - 04 August 2019 10:17 AM

Australia is a model for action.

And New Zealand

Not so fast: Noncompliance Kneecaps New Zealand’s Gun Control Scheme

Once again, responding to a horrendous crime by inflicting knee-jerk, authoritarian restrictions on innocent people proves to be an ineffective means of convincing people to obey. Specifically, New Zealand’s government—which also stepped up censorship and domestic surveillance after bloody attacks on two Christchurch mosques earlier this year—is running into stiff resistance to new gun rules from firearms owners who are slow to surrender now-prohibited weapons and will probably never turn them in.

Officials should have seen it coming.

“Police are anticipating a number of people with banned firearms in their possession won’t surrender them,” Stuff reported at the end of May, based on internal government documents.

As of last week, only around 700 weapons had been turned over. There are an estimated 1.5 million guns—with an unknown number subject to the new prohibition on semiautomatic firearms—in the country overall.

So, what should they do now? Send the storm troopers in to people’s houses to take their guns by force? The cure is worse than the disease.

So much for “law abiding gun owner” when following the law is a matter of convenience.

There need not be a forceful round up of guns, but the moment they are caught with one illegally they should not expect the police to not enforce the law.  Your post also reinforces the image that gun owners will violently resist the law if they are on the wrong side of it.

When the law is unconstitutional, citizens have a right and a duty to disobey it. That said, New Zealand doesn’t even have a constitution, not a real one. Too bad for them.

New Zealand has a constitution, a constitution that can evolve to meet the needs of today’s citizens and address current issues.  They also have a Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, who demonstrates reasoned leadership and integrity.  Unlike some other countries whose electoral processes and systems of government result in the opposite.  Too bad for them.

This thread is about the horrors caused by a hate-filled racist with access to weapons.  There have been numerous polls indicating that the majority of Americans support tougher gun controls.  In a democracy, should the NRA types overrule the majority of the people?

The US is not a democracy, thank God (metaphorically, of course). A democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for dinner. (Aren’t you glad you’re not a sheep living in New Zealand, where their so-called “constitution” can “evolve” to meet the needs of the wolves.) The US Constitution—not the NRA—overrules the whims of voters and the cynical schemes of self-serving political parties.

 
 
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