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Your Boy, Jesus Christ

 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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07 August 2019 10:48
 

It’s probably the case that he was knowingly deceiving people, right? I don’t think that there is a good case for him being 100% delusional schizophrenic. I think that the more plausible explanation is that he was a pathological liar in search of cult status. Then do you guys think that his powers of persuasion were ahead of their time - as in he was a gifted deceiver? Or was everyone just freaking retarded back then? I’m assuming it was a bit of both, but Jesus the Sociopath is my favorite christ figure. Maybe it’s because the irony when meeting an ardent Christian is worth its weight in gold.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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07 August 2019 11:14
 
Jb8989 - 07 August 2019 10:48 AM

It’s probably the case that he was knowingly deceiving people, right? I don’t think that there is a good case for him being 100% delusional schizophrenic. I think that the more plausible explanation is that he was a pathological liar in search of cult status. Then do you guys think that his powers of persuasion were ahead of their time - as in he was a gifted deceiver? Or was everyone just freaking retarded back then? I’m assuming it was a bit of both, but Jesus the Sociopath is my favorite christ figure. Maybe it’s because the irony when meeting an ardent Christian is worth its weight in gold.

Nope, I don’t think so.  I think he was a revolutionary of his time, who preached a message that spoke to the needs of the poor and disenfranchised, against the corruption of greed and power in both politics and religion.  It seems likely that many of the myths and ‘lies’ came after his death – embellishments and exaggerations by followers (e.g. miracles, divinity claims), and deceptions by those who wished to use this new religion for their own purposes.

Even though I no longer believe in the holy, Jesus the hippie-like promoter of love and peace is my favourite christ figure. 

 

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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07 August 2019 11:25
 
Jan_CAN - 07 August 2019 11:14 AM
Jb8989 - 07 August 2019 10:48 AM

It’s probably the case that he was knowingly deceiving people, right? I don’t think that there is a good case for him being 100% delusional schizophrenic. I think that the more plausible explanation is that he was a pathological liar in search of cult status. Then do you guys think that his powers of persuasion were ahead of their time - as in he was a gifted deceiver? Or was everyone just freaking retarded back then? I’m assuming it was a bit of both, but Jesus the Sociopath is my favorite christ figure. Maybe it’s because the irony when meeting an ardent Christian is worth its weight in gold.

Nope, I don’t think so.  I think he was a revolutionary of his time, who preached a message that spoke to the needs of the poor and disenfranchised, against the corruption of greed and power in both politics and religion.  It seems likely that many of the myths and ‘lies’ came after his death – embellishments and exaggerations by followers (e.g. miracles, divinity claims), and deceptions by those who wished to use this new religion for their own purposes.

Even though I no longer believe in the holy, Jesus the hippie-like promoter of love and peace is my favourite christ figure.

Many, not all, and maybe not even most, and I imagine that you also believe he was the son of god and performed some magic?

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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07 August 2019 11:40
 
Jb8989 - 07 August 2019 11:25 AM
Jan_CAN - 07 August 2019 11:14 AM
Jb8989 - 07 August 2019 10:48 AM

It’s probably the case that he was knowingly deceiving people, right? I don’t think that there is a good case for him being 100% delusional schizophrenic. I think that the more plausible explanation is that he was a pathological liar in search of cult status. Then do you guys think that his powers of persuasion were ahead of their time - as in he was a gifted deceiver? Or was everyone just freaking retarded back then? I’m assuming it was a bit of both, but Jesus the Sociopath is my favorite christ figure. Maybe it’s because the irony when meeting an ardent Christian is worth its weight in gold.

Nope, I don’t think so.  I think he was a revolutionary of his time, who preached a message that spoke to the needs of the poor and disenfranchised, against the corruption of greed and power in both politics and religion.  It seems likely that many of the myths and ‘lies’ came after his death – embellishments and exaggerations by followers (e.g. miracles, divinity claims), and deceptions by those who wished to use this new religion for their own purposes.

Even though I no longer believe in the holy, Jesus the hippie-like promoter of love and peace is my favourite christ figure.

Many, not all, and maybe not even most, and I imagine that you also believe he was the son of god and performed some magic?

Absolutely not.  I’m an atheist – no belief in supernatural miracles, gods, or sons of gods.

There’s no way to know who the real Jesus of Nazareth was, unless some time in the future scrolls are found in a desert somewhere that sheds historical light.

I have no sound basis for my views about Jesus, but if you disregard the miracles (including resurrection) and claims to divinity, much of what he supposedly said (the beatitudes, the golden rule, etc.) are humanitarian concepts, not those of a sociopath.

 

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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07 August 2019 11:50
 
Jan_CAN - 07 August 2019 11:40 AM

I have no sound basis for my views about Jesus, but if you disregard the miracles (including resurrection) and claims to divinity, much of what he supposedly said (the beatitudes, the golden rule, etc.) are humanitarian concepts, not those of a sociopath.

The purpose of the thread was to consider rather than disregard how many times he lied. Anyone can cherry pick his goodness.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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07 August 2019 12:04
 
Jb8989 - 07 August 2019 11:50 AM
Jan_CAN - 07 August 2019 11:40 AM

I have no sound basis for my views about Jesus, but if you disregard the miracles (including resurrection) and claims to divinity, much of what he supposedly said (the beatitudes, the golden rule, etc.) are humanitarian concepts, not those of a sociopath.

The purpose of the thread was to consider rather than disregard how many times he lied. Anyone can cherry pick his goodness.

But that makes an assumption that the lies were all his, though the scriptures were written by others long after his death.
Of course there’s an abundance of mistakes/untruths/lies in the NT; but is there an historical Jesus under all of it?  I expect we’ll never know, but will leave it there.

 

 

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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07 August 2019 12:09
 
Jan_CAN - 07 August 2019 12:04 PM
Jb8989 - 07 August 2019 11:50 AM
Jan_CAN - 07 August 2019 11:40 AM

I have no sound basis for my views about Jesus, but if you disregard the miracles (including resurrection) and claims to divinity, much of what he supposedly said (the beatitudes, the golden rule, etc.) are humanitarian concepts, not those of a sociopath.

The purpose of the thread was to consider rather than disregard how many times he lied. Anyone can cherry pick his goodness.

But that makes an assumption that the lies were all his, though the scriptures were written by others long after his death.
Of course there’s an abundance of mistakes/untruths/lies in the NT; but is there an historical Jesus under all of it?  I expect we’ll never know, but will leave it there.

 

 

I’m sure there was, and just as a starting point, he constantly reiterated that he was god. Is that something we can agree on?

 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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07 August 2019 12:22
 
Jb8989 - 07 August 2019 12:09 PM

. . . just as a starting point, he constantly reiterated that he was god.

And you know this . . . how? Because it says so in the Bible?

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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07 August 2019 12:27
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 07 August 2019 12:22 PM
Jb8989 - 07 August 2019 12:09 PM

. . . just as a starting point, he constantly reiterated that he was god.

And you know this . . . how? Because it says so in the Bible?

Yeah. I think there were enough people saying he said I’m god to elevate him saying that from pure hearsay to probably happened. What do you think?

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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07 August 2019 12:31
 
Jb8989 - 07 August 2019 12:09 PM
Jan_CAN - 07 August 2019 12:04 PM
Jb8989 - 07 August 2019 11:50 AM
Jan_CAN - 07 August 2019 11:40 AM

I have no sound basis for my views about Jesus, but if you disregard the miracles (including resurrection) and claims to divinity, much of what he supposedly said (the beatitudes, the golden rule, etc.) are humanitarian concepts, not those of a sociopath.

The purpose of the thread was to consider rather than disregard how many times he lied. Anyone can cherry pick his goodness.

But that makes an assumption that the lies were all his, though the scriptures were written by others long after his death.
Of course there’s an abundance of mistakes/untruths/lies in the NT; but is there an historical Jesus under all of it?  I expect we’ll never know, but will leave it there.

I’m sure there was, and just as a starting point, he constantly reiterated that he was god. Is that something we can agree on?

Yes, that claim is throughout the NT.  But is it an addition by the writers who wished to make him into a god?  Or a misunderstanding of his claims?  However, it also isn’t valid to entirely dismiss a claim to divinity as being his since there is some consistency.  I don’t know, but I have residual feelings – I still like Jesus.  Perhaps he was a mildly deluded humanitarian with grandiose ideas of how to help his people, rather than a lying sociopath?

 

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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07 August 2019 12:44
 
Jan_CAN - 07 August 2019 12:31 PM

Perhaps he was a mildly deluded humanitarian with grandiose ideas of how to help his people, rather than a lying sociopath?

Perhaps, and I like ripped-hippie jesus, too, but I’m skeptical. I think he might have been running around saying he’s god and knows some magic.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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07 August 2019 12:56
 
Jb8989 - 07 August 2019 12:44 PM
Jan_CAN - 07 August 2019 12:31 PM

Perhaps he was a mildly deluded humanitarian with grandiose ideas of how to help his people, rather than a lying sociopath?

Perhaps, and I like ripped-hippie jesus, too, but I’m skeptical. I think he might have been running around saying he’s god and knows some magic.

Yeah, we have to be skeptical.  Wouldn’t it be marvelous though if someday a scroll were found that would shed more light on this enigmatic man.

 

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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07 August 2019 13:34
 
Jan_CAN - 07 August 2019 12:56 PM
Jb8989 - 07 August 2019 12:44 PM
Jan_CAN - 07 August 2019 12:31 PM

Perhaps he was a mildly deluded humanitarian with grandiose ideas of how to help his people, rather than a lying sociopath?

Perhaps, and I like ripped-hippie jesus, too, but I’m skeptical. I think he might have been running around saying he’s god and knows some magic.

Yeah, we have to be skeptical.  Wouldn’t it be marvelous though if someday a scroll were found that would shed more light on this enigmatic man.

I assumed there was something like that but he drank too much red and banged too many women that they buried it.

 
 
Garret
 
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Garret
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07 August 2019 16:22
 

There’s decent evidence that he didn’t think he was God, the son of God, or anything of the sort, but it isn’t conclusive.  It’s complicated readings of many, many variations of Greek manuscripts from the first few centuries after his death.  If you read the four gospels chronologically, and then again compare them laterally (ie, you read the first part of Matthew, then the first part of Mark, then the first part of Luke, then the first part of John, then second part of Matthew….) and understand the timing of the writing of these gospels, a meta-narrative starts to emerge.  At first followers believed him to be a man, but with special teachings.  Then, a special man with special teachings.  Then a possibly divine being with a new divine word.  Then he became God.

The first three gospels written never actually proclaims him the son of God.  Rather it is the coming kingdom of god that he preaches about.  Consider for a moment the messianic beliefs of Judaism, how they were at that moment under Roman occupation… and the idea that someone would go wandering around the area preaching about how the Israelite kingdom was going to be restored is kind of a no brainer.  Josephus talks about many such men.  Jesus wasn’t preaching a new religion, but a restoration to power of the current one.  The “king of kings” language makes much more sense, IMO, when you think of the king of Jerusalem sitting at the head of the 12 tribes of Israel, each with its own king.

 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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08 August 2019 00:21
 

There is significant evidence that the person Jesus as referred to in the New Testament ever existed.

 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
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08 August 2019 12:15
 

Sometimes, people have powerful mystical experiences. They fully realize that they are part of a greater whole; part of something greater than themselves and their paltry egos. They realize that the concept of the “self” is an illusion. Perhaps they sense that their consciousness is part of an even greater one — a universal consciousness. It’s not that uncommon of an occurrence. Even here, on this little forum, there are people who have had this experience to some degree or another.

These experiences transcend thought and verbal concepts. Nonetheless, the human mind is compelled to attach meaning and to compulsively categorize experience. People do the same with these moments of transcendence; they shoehorn a non-verbal happening into a preexisting religious framework or dogma, usually with confusing and contradictory results.

According to philosopher, Alan Watts, this is probably what happened to Jesus. He had a transcendent experience, but could only interpret what he experienced through the filter of the Judaic religion. He expressed himself in terms which were familiar to him and his fellow Jews. However, these terms didn’t quite fit the experience he had had. Later writers of the Gospels, garbled the message of Jesus even more.

From the article, THE WORLD’S MOST DANGEROUS BOOK, by Alan Watts:

In other words, the Gospel, or “good news” that Jesus was trying to convey, despite the limitations of his tradition, was that we are all sons of God. When he uses the terms I am (as in “Before Abraham was, I am”) or Me (as in “No one comes to the Father but by Me”), he is intending to use them in the same way as Krishna in the Bhagavad-Gita :

He who sees Me everywhere and sees all in Me; I am not lost to him, nor is he lost to Me. The yogi who, established in oneness, worships Me abiding in all beings, lives in Me, whatever be his outward life.

And by this “Me” Krishna means the atman that is at once the basic self in us and in the universe. To know this is to enjoy eternal life, to discover that the fundamental “I am” feeling, which you confuse with your superficial ego, is the ultimate reality forever and ever, amen.

In this essential respect, the Gospel has been obscured and muffled almost from the beginnings. For Jesus was presumably trying to say that our consciousness is the divine spirit, “the light which enlightens every one who comes into the world,” and which George Fox, founder of the Quakers, called the Inward Light. But the Church, still bound to the image of God as the King of kings, couldn’t accept this Gospel. It adopted a religion about Jesus instead of the religion of Jesus. It kicked him upstairs and put him in the privileged and unique position of being the Boss’s son, so that, having this unique advantage, his life and example became useless to everyone else. The individual Christian must not know that his own “I am” is the one that existed before Abraham. In this way, the Church institutionalized and made a virtue of feeling chronic guilt for not being as good as Jesus. It only widened the alienation, the colossal difference, that monotheism put between man and God.

When I try to explain this to Jesus freaks and other Bible bangers, they invariably reveal theological ignorance by saying, “But doesn’t the Bible say that Jesus was the only -begotten son of God?” It doesn’t. Not, at least, according to Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Anglican interpretations. The phrase “only-begotten son refers not to Jesus the man but to the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, who is said to have become incarnate in the man Jesus. Nowhere does the Bible, or even the creeds of the Church, say that Jesus was the only incarnation of God the Son in all time and space. Furthermore, it is not generally known that God the Son is symbolized as both male and female, as Logos-Sophia, the Design and the Wisdom of God, based on the passage in Proverbs 7:9, where the Wisdom of God speaks as a woman.

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/other/alan-watts-bible.html

[ Edited: 08 August 2019 12:26 by Cheshire Cat]
 
 
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