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Your Boy, Jesus Christ

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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09 August 2019 09:16
 
Jb8989 - 09 August 2019 08:43 AM
GAD - 09 August 2019 08:35 AM
Jb8989 - 09 August 2019 08:31 AM
GAD - 09 August 2019 08:15 AM

Bottom-line is no one knows what Jesus said or did, if anything, everything you believe was all ascribed to him by other men long after he was dead.

Yeah, but you got to admit that if even a fraction of his following was true, he got a ton of tail.

Well we know for sure all the men who came after him got tail using his name.

Name dropping Jesus was probably golden back then. Oh how the times have change, though, because BM actually knows Jesus personally and his dick hasn’t worked since his wife sucked the holy spirit out of it.

The holy spirit abhors an empty woman, so once your wife has been filled with the spirit it seeks other women to fulfill.

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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09 August 2019 10:46
 
GAD - 09 August 2019 09:16 AM
Jb8989 - 09 August 2019 08:43 AM
GAD - 09 August 2019 08:35 AM
Jb8989 - 09 August 2019 08:31 AM
GAD - 09 August 2019 08:15 AM

Bottom-line is no one knows what Jesus said or did, if anything, everything you believe was all ascribed to him by other men long after he was dead.

Yeah, but you got to admit that if even a fraction of his following was true, he got a ton of tail.

Well we know for sure all the men who came after him got tail using his name.

Name dropping Jesus was probably golden back then. Oh how the times have change, though, because BM actually knows Jesus personally and his dick hasn’t worked since his wife sucked the holy spirit out of it.

The holy spirit abhors an empty woman, so once your wife has been filled with the spirit it seeks other women to fulfill.

Dear Lord!

 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
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09 August 2019 11:53
 
GAD - 09 August 2019 08:15 AM

Bottom-line is no one knows what Jesus said or did, if anything, everything you believe was all ascribed to him by other men long after he was dead.

I’ve read quite a few books about Jesus, written by historians trying to piece together who the living Jesus really was. And, you are right, it cannot be done. Jesus, the man, will always be a mystery.

However, your bottom line conclusion, even though it’s true, doesn’t much matter.

The living man named Jesus is of little to no significance anymore. An ideal, mythical, archetypal Jesus has taken his place. This Jesus is the penultimate symbol of human realization; a human fully connected to ground of all Being.

This Jesus lives in the imagination of people. He is manipulated within the mind of each believer to suit their needs.

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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09 August 2019 12:06
 
Cheshire Cat - 09 August 2019 11:53 AM
GAD - 09 August 2019 08:15 AM

Bottom-line is no one knows what Jesus said or did, if anything, everything you believe was all ascribed to him by other men long after he was dead.

I’ve read quite a few books about Jesus, written by historians trying to piece together who the living Jesus really was. And, you are right, it cannot be done. Jesus, the man, will always be a mystery.

However, your bottom line conclusion, even though it’s true, doesn’t much matter.

The living man named Jesus is of little to no significance anymore. An ideal, mythical, archetypal Jesus has taken his place. This Jesus is the penultimate symbol of human realization; a human fully connected to ground of all Being.

This Jesus lives in the imagination of people. He is manipulated within the mind of each believer to suit their needs.

He definitely didn’t say that he could walk on water, right? That just seemed like a late addition for popcorn sales.

 
 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
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09 August 2019 13:55
 
Jb8989 - 09 August 2019 12:06 PM
Cheshire Cat - 09 August 2019 11:53 AM
GAD - 09 August 2019 08:15 AM

Bottom-line is no one knows what Jesus said or did, if anything, everything you believe was all ascribed to him by other men long after he was dead.

I’ve read quite a few books about Jesus, written by historians trying to piece together who the living Jesus really was. And, you are right, it cannot be done. Jesus, the man, will always be a mystery.

However, your bottom line conclusion, even though it’s true, doesn’t much matter.

The living man named Jesus is of little to no significance anymore. An ideal, mythical, archetypal Jesus has taken his place. This Jesus is the penultimate symbol of human realization; a human fully connected to ground of all Being.

This Jesus lives in the imagination of people. He is manipulated within the mind of each believer to suit their needs.

He definitely didn’t say that he could walk on water, right? That just seemed like a late addition for popcorn sales.

Don’t know for sure.

I bet he could definitely walk on popcorn though.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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09 August 2019 17:43
 
Cheshire Cat - 09 August 2019 11:53 AM
GAD - 09 August 2019 08:15 AM

Bottom-line is no one knows what Jesus said or did, if anything, everything you believe was all ascribed to him by other men long after he was dead.

I’ve read quite a few books about Jesus, written by historians trying to piece together who the living Jesus really was. And, you are right, it cannot be done. Jesus, the man, will always be a mystery.

However, your bottom line conclusion, even though it’s true, doesn’t much matter.

The living man named Jesus is of little to no significance anymore. An ideal, mythical, archetypal Jesus has taken his place. This Jesus is the penultimate symbol of human realization; a human fully connected to ground of all Being.

This Jesus lives in the imagination of people. He is manipulated within the mind of each believer to suit their needs.

Indeed!

 
 
Garret
 
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Garret
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11 August 2019 07:26
 

So, Saul of Tarsis (Greek name Paul) was an apocalyptic Jew.

Not all Jewish believers had the same beliefs.  Fairly central and common to Jewish belief is the concept of the messiah.  This doesn’t mean what we think it means in the modern Christian context.  The root of “messiah” just meant “anointed one.”  King David was “anointed,” and God had said that one of his descendants would always sit on the throne of Judea.  Then the Babylonians came along destroying Jerusalem and killing/enslaving the line of David.  This then came to be interpreted that God’s promise was that eventually, another anointed one (messiah) would come and restore the kingdom.  It’d be a warrior-king who could conquer the enemies of Judea.

Fairly common to Judaism is the belief that when the end times come, God will bring everyone back from the dead and judge them.  There isn’t really a heaven and hell concept in this, people who are dead are just dead, but God will bring them back for judgment.  Then, there will be a new paradise for those worthy to live in.  Apocalyptic Jews thought that this was going to start happening any day now.

When Jesus is crucified, the story from his followers starts to spread some.  Paul is fairly religious and like many other Jews can see how ridiculous it is to claim that Jesus is the messiah.  The messiah is a warrior-king who will defeat the enemies of Judea in battle.  Jesus is the opposite of this.  He’s an itinerant preacher who was killed in humiliating fashion.  It’s like someone trying to argue that Tim Tebow is one of the greatest quarterbacks in NFL history.  Anyone who has watched much football over the past 10 years knows that this would be a really silly, and easily repudiated claim.

Then Paul converts.  The accounts vary, but he had a religious experience and believed that he saw Jesus as alive.  Paul believes that God is going to start resurrecting people at some point, and then he will sit in judgment of them.  Seeing Jesus alive, to Paul, means that this process has begun.  Of course, in Paul’s mind, that means in the next days, weeks, months, etc… not 2000 years.  Paul thinks that the end times have begun.

Paul is educated in Jewish religion though, and he has some squares to circle.  First, anyone who is “hung on a tree” is cursed by God.  In Paul’s time, this is taken to include those who are crucified.  Before his conversion, it was further evidence that Jesus was not the messiah.  But now Paul knows that Jesus is the chosen representative of God.  How can the chosen one be cursed?  To Paul, this means that Jesus wasn’t cursed for anything he did, but rather that Jesus was so cursed because of the sins of others.  Sacrifice is a pretty common practice during and before this time.  The common idea with sacrifice is that it stands in for you and pays your price to God for you.  Jesus’ cursed method of death is a sacrifice for humanity.

Prior to Paul’s conversion, the followers of Jesus were converting people to Judaism.  You had to be Jewish to become a Christian, it was a process.  Paul sees it differently.  The old laws didn’t matter any more.  Prior to this, to be right with God you had to abide the old laws.  But if Jesus needed to be sacrificed for our sins, that meant the old laws weren’t sufficient to make people right with God.  Since he had been sacrificed, that meant that through his death all had been made right with God.  The salvation of Christ is available to all, gentiles and Jews.

Just more context of how Jesus became Christ (the Greek word for messiah).

 
Cheshire Cat
 
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Cheshire Cat
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11 August 2019 11:32
 

Interesting and well written Garret.

There is a scene from the Martin Scorsese film, “The Last Temptation of Christ,” which I think is absolutely brilliant. It’s a fictional scene where Jesus and Paul meet.

In the movie and book, Satan gives Jesus one final temptation — the chance to leave the crucifixion, and to live the rest of his life as an ordinary man.

Satan, in the movie, is portrayed as kind, gentle, red-haired girl. Jesus succumbs to this temptation and leaves the cross. He lives a long, happy life of domestic bliss with his wives and children, until one day, he happens upon Paul preaching to a group of people.

Jesus confronts Paul, telling him that he is a liar, and that he is the real Jesus of Nazareth.

Paul’s response is insightful, powerful, mind-boggling and absolutely true. Harry Dean Stanton is brilliant as Paul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaUuSJx-VDA

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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11 August 2019 11:42
 
Cheshire Cat - 11 August 2019 11:32 AM

Interesting and well written Garret.

There is a scene from the Martin Scorsese film, “The Last Temptation of Christ,” which I think is absolutely brilliant. It’s a fictional scene where Jesus and Paul meet.

In the movie and book, Satan gives Jesus one final temptation — the chance to leave the crucifixion, and to live the rest of his life as an ordinary man.

Satan, in the movie, is portrayed as kind, gentle, red-haired girl. Jesus succumbs to this temptation and leaves the cross. He lives a long, happy life of domestic bliss with his wives and children, until one day, he happens upon Paul preaching to a group of people.

Jesus confronts Paul, telling him that he is a liar, and that he is the real Jesus of Nazareth.

Paul’s response is insightful, powerful, mind-boggling and absolutely true. Harry Dean Stanton is brilliant as Paul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaUuSJx-VDA

That’s prefect, Paul invented Christianity and Christians really follow Paul and worship him by proxy.

 
 
Garret
 
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Garret
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11 August 2019 12:05
 

Not original to me.  I’ve been digesting a lot of Bart Ehrman the past 6 months.  I’m sure there are plenty of scholars who disagree with him.  I’m not an expert on Christology, but I work in history, and I find his methodology fairly convincing.  I don’t necessary think what he says is 100% true, but it is persuasive and I find it likely to be near the truth.

The Last Temptation is good, some great actors working with a great director.  It’s an interesting look into 20th century Christianity, but not interesting from a historical perspective.  It examines the modern preacher as being cynical about knowing the falsity of the religion, but believing it necessary to maintain social order.  I think the examination of modern Christianity is well-informed by a historical understanding, but we have to be careful about not carrying modern ideas backwards to a time when they didn’t exist.  For the most part, not believing in the existence of divine beings during the 1st century CE wouldn’t have even occurred to people.  People didn’t necessarily believe in the truth of mythological stories.  The stories were sometimes viewed as either just being stories, or just a way of explaining an aspect of a divine being to people, but the truth of a mythological story was independent from whether or not the gods existed.

Even in the Old Testament, the Jews didn’t believe in the existence of only their god.  They thought their god was their god, and that they were his chosen people, but reread the first commandment that Moses brought down.  “I am the Lord, they God.  You shall have no other gods before me.”  In that is the tacit admission that other gods exist.  You aren’t prohibited from believing that they are real, you are prohibited from worshiping them.  It’s not until much later, 3rd century CE that there starts to be a requirement to disavow the truth of other gods.

The cynical Paul in The Last Temptation is a modern preacher being projected backwards for the purposes of the story of the movie.

 
Garret
 
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Garret
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11 August 2019 12:19
 
GAD - 11 August 2019 11:42 AM
Cheshire Cat - 11 August 2019 11:32 AM

Interesting and well written Garret.

There is a scene from the Martin Scorsese film, “The Last Temptation of Christ,” which I think is absolutely brilliant. It’s a fictional scene where Jesus and Paul meet.

In the movie and book, Satan gives Jesus one final temptation — the chance to leave the crucifixion, and to live the rest of his life as an ordinary man.

Satan, in the movie, is portrayed as kind, gentle, red-haired girl. Jesus succumbs to this temptation and leaves the cross. He lives a long, happy life of domestic bliss with his wives and children, until one day, he happens upon Paul preaching to a group of people.

Jesus confronts Paul, telling him that he is a liar, and that he is the real Jesus of Nazareth.

Paul’s response is insightful, powerful, mind-boggling and absolutely true. Harry Dean Stanton is brilliant as Paul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaUuSJx-VDA

That’s prefect, Paul invented Christianity and Christians really follow Paul and worship him by proxy.

Kind of.

Paul seems to be responsible for the development of the core tenet of the faith: Jesus was crucified for the sins of man, and his crucifixion is a proxy sacrifice for all people.  This sacrifice fulfilled the requirements for salvation in the eyes of God.

Jesus certainly wasn’t aware of this idea.  He never preaches it at all.  In fact, read the four gospels and how they describe his behavior during those last moments.  In one of them he cries out to God and asks why he has been forsaken.  If he knew of the plan all along, this doesn’t make any sense at all.  Coupled with him never professing that he was the “son of God”, I think it’s pretty compelling evidence that he never preached anything about his own divine nature.

Prior to Christianity, there wasn’t really a heaven and hell.  The Greeks and Romans had concepts of a kind of paradise afterlife, but this was typically reserved for great heroes who themselves might get worshiped in smaller cults.  Most people understood the afterlife as a kind of non-existence.  The soul existed, but it wasn’t really aware of anything, barring extreme circumstances.  People who were great heroes and went to the paradise were considered to have become divine beings.  But in a society where every mountain, stream, hill, house, etc, had a divine being attached to it, that really isn’t that strange.  The Greeks and Romans weren’t as liberal with their assignment of divine beings as say the Hindu or Shinto religions, but they weren’t that far off either.

So, once Paul puts together a theological belief that Jesus was God’s chosen representative, he immediately obtains divine status in the cult.  Paul doesn’t define Jesus as being one and the same as God, but it gets the ball rolling.  I would agree with the sentiment that Christianity is largely a religion created by Paul though.

I also find it interesting that right from the beginning, Christianity has been a religion that thinks we’re already in the “end times.”

 
EN
 
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EN
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11 August 2019 13:14
 

Mark 14:61-62.

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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11 August 2019 13:25
 
Garret - 11 August 2019 12:19 PM
GAD - 11 August 2019 11:42 AM
Cheshire Cat - 11 August 2019 11:32 AM

Interesting and well written Garret.

There is a scene from the Martin Scorsese film, “The Last Temptation of Christ,” which I think is absolutely brilliant. It’s a fictional scene where Jesus and Paul meet.

In the movie and book, Satan gives Jesus one final temptation — the chance to leave the crucifixion, and to live the rest of his life as an ordinary man.

Satan, in the movie, is portrayed as kind, gentle, red-haired girl. Jesus succumbs to this temptation and leaves the cross. He lives a long, happy life of domestic bliss with his wives and children, until one day, he happens upon Paul preaching to a group of people.

Jesus confronts Paul, telling him that he is a liar, and that he is the real Jesus of Nazareth.

Paul’s response is insightful, powerful, mind-boggling and absolutely true. Harry Dean Stanton is brilliant as Paul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaUuSJx-VDA

That’s prefect, Paul invented Christianity and Christians really follow Paul and worship him by proxy.

Kind of.

Paul seems to be responsible for the development of the core tenet of the faith: Jesus was crucified for the sins of man, and his crucifixion is a proxy sacrifice for all people.  This sacrifice fulfilled the requirements for salvation in the eyes of God.

Jesus certainly wasn’t aware of this idea.  He never preaches it at all.  In fact, read the four gospels and how they describe his behavior during those last moments.  In one of them he cries out to God and asks why he has been forsaken.  If he knew of the plan all along, this doesn’t make any sense at all.  Coupled with him never professing that he was the “son of God”, I think it’s pretty compelling evidence that he never preached anything about his own divine nature.

Prior to Christianity, there wasn’t really a heaven and hell.  The Greeks and Romans had concepts of a kind of paradise afterlife, but this was typically reserved for great heroes who themselves might get worshiped in smaller cults.  Most people understood the afterlife as a kind of non-existence.  The soul existed, but it wasn’t really aware of anything, barring extreme circumstances.  People who were great heroes and went to the paradise were considered to have become divine beings.  But in a society where every mountain, stream, hill, house, etc, had a divine being attached to it, that really isn’t that strange.  The Greeks and Romans weren’t as liberal with their assignment of divine beings as say the Hindu or Shinto religions, but they weren’t that far off either.

So, once Paul puts together a theological belief that Jesus was God’s chosen representative, he immediately obtains divine status in the cult.  Paul doesn’t define Jesus as being one and the same as God, but it gets the ball rolling.  I would agree with the sentiment that Christianity is largely a religion created by Paul though.

I also find it interesting that right from the beginning, Christianity has been a religion that thinks we’re already in the “end times.”

The four gospels were Jews projecting onto Jesus their beliefs and politics and that he was the Jewish messiah that was coming to lead the Jews to ruling gods Paradise on earth. Paul rewrote that and all the non-jews (you had to be born a jew) of whom there were far more of got to now live and die for god.

 
 
Jb8989
 
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Jb8989
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11 August 2019 20:29
 

Could paul have lied about the crusifixion?

 
 
GAD
 
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11 August 2019 21:13
 
Jb8989 - 11 August 2019 08:29 PM

Could paul have lied about the crusifixion?

he never met Jesus or saw the crucifixion.

 
 
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