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Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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19 August 2019 21:47
 
Twissel - 19 August 2019 09:23 PM
Antisocialdarwinist - 19 August 2019 12:14 PM
Twissel - 18 August 2019 08:12 PM
Antisocialdarwinist - 18 August 2019 05:07 PM
Twissel - 18 August 2019 01:30 PM

In a two-party system, the only relevant criterion is: “Better than the alternative”.

Bingo!

This is, in my opinion, still the best explanation for Trump’s victory. To paraphrase Churchill’s quote about democracy, Trump was the worst possible candidate—except for the other one.

Except that you had to be terribly gullible to believe Trump is better than Clinton.

Luckily for both parties, the country is full of terribly gullible people.

According to all polls, better education doesn’t mix with voting GOP.

Nor does “better education” make people less gullible.

 
 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
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21 August 2019 09:20
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 19 August 2019 09:47 PM

Nor does “better education” make people less gullible.

I’m a little confused as to how you get there. That seems to be almost definitional of education.

 
Garret
 
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Garret
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21 August 2019 09:26
 

The higher level of attained education the more likely someone was to support the war in Vietnam in the 60’s and early 70’s.

Education can give you tools to make you less gullible, but people still tend to rely on short cuts that conserve energy which makes them open to fallacious reasoning.

 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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21 August 2019 14:23
 
Brick Bungalow - 21 August 2019 09:20 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 19 August 2019 09:47 PM

Nor does “better education” make people less gullible.

I’m a little confused as to how you get there. That seems to be almost definitional of education.

Research shows that more intelligent/better informed people don’t reach more accurate conclusions about reality or make better decisions. They’re just better able to defend their intuitive conclusions and rationalize their preexisting beliefs.

The exception is if people are educated specifically on reasoning or critical thinking. But unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be part of our education curriculum. If it were up to me, it would be required to graduate from high school. The class would include books like Shermer’s The Believing Brain, Khaneman’s Thinking Fast and Slow, Mercier’s The Enigma of Reason, etc..

Also, when it comes to politics, it seems to me that most people—regardless of their political affiliation—mistake their preferences and opinions for facts, then perceive people who disagree with them as stupid or uneducated.

 
 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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21 August 2019 23:50
 

Ah, but educated people delude themselves about different things than the less educated ones, simply because they know so many more things one can be deluded about.

 
 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
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22 August 2019 09:55
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 21 August 2019 02:23 PM
Brick Bungalow - 21 August 2019 09:20 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 19 August 2019 09:47 PM

Nor does “better education” make people less gullible.

I’m a little confused as to how you get there. That seems to be almost definitional of education.

Research shows that more intelligent/better informed people don’t reach more accurate conclusions about reality or make better decisions. They’re just better able to defend their intuitive conclusions and rationalize their preexisting beliefs.

The exception is if people are educated specifically on reasoning or critical thinking. But unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be part of our education curriculum. If it were up to me, it would be required to graduate from high school. The class would include books like Shermer’s The Believing Brain, Khaneman’s Thinking Fast and Slow, Mercier’s The Enigma of Reason, etc..

Also, when it comes to politics, it seems to me that most people—regardless of their political affiliation—mistake their preferences and opinions for facts, then perceive people who disagree with them as stupid or uneducated.

I agree. I guess I’m hung up on phrasing. When I read ‘better education’ I intuit ‘whatever sort of education confers applicable skills and insights’. Not simply college or graduate skill. Hopefully there exists, at least in concept an education that combines formal, institutional learning with a self informing life journey. Something that doesn’t simply generate different kinds of biases.

 

 
Garret
 
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Garret
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22 August 2019 10:14
 
Twissel - 21 August 2019 11:50 PM

Ah, but educated people delude themselves about different things than the less educated ones, simply because they know so many more things one can be deluded about.

I’d argue that it’s more about the thinking process.  There’s a whole aside on cognitive processes, sugar consumption, and evolution, but suffice to say for the moment that our brain has evolved to maximize efficiency and meet the minimum requirements for survival.  Even a highly educated person still has a brain that evolved for survival on the plains of Africa, and if they aren’t directly applying any learned critical thinking skills in a specific moment, their brain will likely fall back on energy conserving methods developed to shortcut the process to arrive at a conclusion that is adequate for survival.

 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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22 August 2019 11:08
 
Brick Bungalow - 22 August 2019 09:55 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 21 August 2019 02:23 PM
Brick Bungalow - 21 August 2019 09:20 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 19 August 2019 09:47 PM

Nor does “better education” make people less gullible.

I’m a little confused as to how you get there. That seems to be almost definitional of education.

Research shows that more intelligent/better informed people don’t reach more accurate conclusions about reality or make better decisions. They’re just better able to defend their intuitive conclusions and rationalize their preexisting beliefs.

The exception is if people are educated specifically on reasoning or critical thinking. But unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to be part of our education curriculum. If it were up to me, it would be required to graduate from high school. The class would include books like Shermer’s The Believing Brain, Khaneman’s Thinking Fast and Slow, Mercier’s The Enigma of Reason, etc..

Also, when it comes to politics, it seems to me that most people—regardless of their political affiliation—mistake their preferences and opinions for facts, then perceive people who disagree with them as stupid or uneducated.

I agree. I guess I’m hung up on phrasing. When I read ‘better education’ I intuit ‘whatever sort of education confers applicable skills and insights’. Not simply college or graduate skill. Hopefully there exists, at least in concept an education that combines formal, institutional learning with a self informing life journey. Something that doesn’t simply generate different kinds of biases.

 

When Twissel brought up “better education” I assumed he meant “more.” I saw the same polls vis-a-vis the Red party. But you’re right: “more” doesn’t necessarily imply “better.”

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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22 August 2019 12:52
 

Even Doris Lessing cannot save us now.

Of course it’s about thinking. Why is anyone certain that it is a matter of quality? The folks we’re concerned about would stumble through ten pages of those books mentioned and set them down forever. There are ways in which those folks can run rings around the rest of us especially in politics.

I would support any candidate regardless of record or experience if they said that we must treat this country as if two kinds of people live in it. We cannot have an old school authoritarian structure of loyalty or an enlightened green deal. These schemes favor one type and the other type would work tirelessly to undermine it. Democracy, a two-party system and the rule of law (as lofty conceptions) are only desired and useful to one type. In the hands of the other type, democracy is a math problem, a two-party system is a handy tool of demonizing and the rule of law is trumped by higher authorities. In this country, political power is a means for one side to dominate and repress the other.

Those ‘thinking skills’ are transforming but in ways that have no impact on anyone’s stupidity or quality of thinking.

Trump’s opponent must straddle both worlds. Sadly, bland Biden comes closest to fitting the bill. A faceless better candidate remains on my wish list right along with a genetically engineered coffee that satisfies all the nutritional requirements of a human.

 
 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
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22 August 2019 22:58
 
Nhoj Morley - 22 August 2019 12:52 PM

Even Doris Lessing cannot save us now.

Of course it’s about thinking. Why is anyone certain that it is a matter of quality? The folks we’re concerned about would stumble through ten pages of those books mentioned and set them down forever. There are ways in which those folks can run rings around the rest of us especially in politics.

I would support any candidate regardless of record or experience if they said that we must treat this country as if two kinds of people live in it. We cannot have an old school authoritarian structure of loyalty or an enlightened green deal. These schemes favor one type and the other type would work tirelessly to undermine it. Democracy, a two-party system and the rule of law (as lofty conceptions) are only desired and useful to one type. In the hands of the other type, democracy is a math problem, a two-party system is a handy tool of demonizing and the rule of law is trumped by higher authorities. In this country, political power is a means for one side to dominate and repress the other.

Those ‘thinking skills’ are transforming but in ways that have no impact on anyone’s stupidity or quality of thinking.

Trump’s opponent must straddle both worlds. Sadly, bland Biden comes closest to fitting the bill. A faceless better candidate remains on my wish list right along with a genetically engineered coffee that satisfies all the nutritional requirements of a human.

I would certainly like leaders that tried to whats best for all the people. What I suspect is that not only does that person not exist, that person could not exist. That is to say our explicit ideological divide along party lines as described by those with material interests in keeping us divided preclude compromise and cooperation by design. Our disagreements are scripted for us by folks who need to keep us at intractable odds. If someone did manage to craft some bipartisan miracle platform the goal posts would immediately change.

I think the evidence is strong considering how plastic the concepts of left, right and center have become over the last decade. Candidates with the right kind of charisma and right kind of press can redefine the margins at will. .

 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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23 August 2019 00:56
 

By all accounts, Obama tried to do what’s best for all people.

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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23 August 2019 02:52
 
Twissel - 23 August 2019 12:56 AM

By all accounts, Obama tried to do what’s best for all people.

Yes, he did. That is my complaint. I want a candidate that won’t do that. I want a President that can do what’s best for two kinds of people. Not all people.

 
 
Skipshot
 
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Skipshot
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23 August 2019 08:08
 
Brick Bungalow - 22 August 2019 10:58 PM

Our disagreements are scripted for us by folks who need to keep us at intractable odds. If someone did manage to craft some bipartisan miracle platform the goal posts would immediately change.

Thanks for the downer.  At least I read this early in my Friday so it would wear off by he time I get off work.

Although I’m not entirely sure there is a grand conspiracy with nefarious ends, and we are mindless vessels into which their message is poured.  Give us some credit for being apathetic dumbasses.

 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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23 August 2019 09:05
 
Skipshot - 23 August 2019 08:08 AM
Brick Bungalow - 22 August 2019 10:58 PM

Our disagreements are scripted for us by folks who need to keep us at intractable odds. If someone did manage to craft some bipartisan miracle platform the goal posts would immediately change.

Thanks for the downer.  At least I read this early in my Friday so it would wear off by he time I get off work.

Although I’m not entirely sure there is a grand conspiracy with nefarious ends, and we are mindless vessels into which their message is poured.  Give us some credit for being apathetic dumbasses.

Is it really as bad as all that?  It seems to me from watching the debates and the speeches of some of the Democratic candidates, that there are several who appear to have integrity, proposals for some much-needed reforms, and a desire to unify the country.

 
 
Jefe
 
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Jefe
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23 August 2019 09:25
 
Skipshot - 23 August 2019 08:08 AM
Brick Bungalow - 22 August 2019 10:58 PM

Our disagreements are scripted for us by folks who need to keep us at intractable odds. If someone did manage to craft some bipartisan miracle platform the goal posts would immediately change.

Thanks for the downer.  At least I read this early in my Friday so it would wear off by he time I get off work.

Although I’m not entirely sure there is a grand conspiracy with nefarious ends, and we are mindless vessels into which their message is poured.  Give us some credit for being apathetic dumbasses.

Aren’t they scripted specifically to turn our heads away from the rampant pillaging of the middle class by the corporate elite?
Brown skinned people didn’t really steal all the middle-class-middle-management or it-cubicle jobs that comprise a big block of middle-class employment.  The rust-belt didn’t really recover many jobs, in spite of promises made most recently.  Large-scale retail giants didn’t really replace all the mom&pop; store jobs they eliminated - and on top of that immediate-internet-delivery is rapidly killing shopping malls and the associated jobs that used to be found there.  University education costs didn’t become 10 times greater in a recessing economy without some manipulation from the executive capital committees.

In a lot of cases these things happened because ‘we’ voted for people who let them happen, or didn’t actively work to stop them from happening.

 
 
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