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Elizabeth Warren’s Ferguson Tweet

 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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04 September 2019 09:10
 
Brick Bungalow - 30 August 2019 09:34 AM

Poor phrasing or an incomplete grasp of the facts regarding one incident is one issue. Ethos on the larger topic is another issue.

Are you suggesting that there is not a systemic double standard by the justice system of racial minorities regarding arrest and prosecution? Because there is actually data on this. Beyond disparate versions of a single event.

Plenty of politicians will skirt controversy and avoid saying anything substantive about controversial topics. That’s nothing new. I hope that isn’t what you are endorsing.

Poor phrasing regarding one incident is forgivable.  An outright lie (or egregiously ignorant) statement about THIS incident is a completely different ballpark.  Actually, it’s not even a different ballpark, it’s a different galaxy.  This isn’t just one incident.  This is THE incident.  It’s like comparing some random foiled terrorist plan to 9/11. 

The only thing I’m suggesting is that Warren is completely wrong in this tweet, and the reason is that she is pandering.  Or she is completely ignorant on the topic she is tweeting about.

If there is a double standard on arrest and prosecution for minorities, then why not focus on that?  If that is indeed the larger topic, why continue to spread a lie and hurt the true cause?

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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04 September 2019 09:35
 

She is selling herself as a savior and saviors need victims to save. Problem is saving people is now a giant industry that employs millions and there just isn’t enough victims to go around and be profitable. So the industry has to find/invent more victims or keep recycling the ones they have.

 
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
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04 September 2019 11:19
 

Jan_CAN

“As is often the case, no amount of reliable evidence will convince someone to believe what they are reluctant or resistant to believe.”

Is this a confession on your part, or a reference to others you disagree with, perhaps even an oblique reference to my post?

Either way, the articles you link are, I think, evidence of a problem, just not evidence that there is systemic racism problem in the criminal justice system. 

Specifically, the report to the UN is based on the same fallacy one sees on this topic over and over again—that racial disparities are de facto evidence of racism.  To enforce this fallacy, it—again and again—refers to representation relative to population for one statistic while ignoring representation relative to population for another.  For instance, from the second paragraph:

“African Americans are more likely than white Americans to be arrested; once arrested, they are more likely to be convicted; and once convicted, and they are more likely to experience lengthy prison sentences.”

Note this statement is missing both a supporting citation (unique in the paragraph) and any subsequent reference to relative crime rates.  That is, if in fact blacks as a group commit more crimes relative to their representation in the population, relative to whites—and they do—they will, naturally, be more likely to be arrested relative to that representation—and they are.  Who knows about conviction rates relative to guilt rates because there is no way to determine this, but as it happens blacks do get longer sentences for the same crimes (that much is acknowledged in what you quote).  However, my broader point is this: pointing out relative arrest and incarceration rates absent relative crime rates is bias in favor of finding racism—not evidence of it.  For instance, being “27% of all individuals arrested” despite being only 12% of the population is hardly evidence of racism when over 50% of known murderers are black, when there are 1.8 violent black criminals involving a firearm for each white criminal of the same, and when for aggravated assault, robbery, and rape there are approximately 1.3 black criminals for each white one.  In fact, given these relative rates 27% of arrests might even be low.  In any case, when looking at both sides of the equation—relative crime rates and relative arrests or incarceration—blacks and whites are arrested and imprisoned at rates about what one would expect in an unbiased and relatively efficient criminal justice system.  One could in fact make precisely this point using, in part, the sources relied on in that UN report, just absent its obvious bias in favor of finding racism everywhere (the bias is “obvious” because it omits half of the disparity, while other sources don’t).  Curious how this issue of disproportionate crime rate isn’t even mentioned in the report, much less rebutted

This fallacy of biased construction is even clearer in the rest of the paragraph, as well as in the specific sections that follow.  In short, if one wants to see how to construct systemic racism from disparities with selective evidence, distorting statistics, and careful omissions, the report to the UN is undoubtedly the way to go.  But because of a rather glaring omission—to wit, relative crime rate estimates from sources comparable to the ones it relies on—it fails entirely as a reliable statement of the problem of racial bias, or not, in the US criminal justice system.

The second article you cite only doubles down on this fallacy of selective construction by implying, indirectly, that those who point to it are part of the problem, as their challenge would surely “trigger fear and stereotypic associations linking Blacks with crime” even more than evidence of disparities absent these contextualizing crime rates.  The article is, I think, a predictable response from those who get a glimpse of undesirable data indicating something they are “reluctant or resistant to believe,” but their doubling down aside, blacks committing crimes links “Blacks with crime,” not white fear and stereotyping (though no doubt both do occur).  That’s the ugly side of the racism-and-policing-problem that people like Warren refuse to consider.  It seems to me that people like her are the bigger problem on race and racism in this country, much more so than racism itself.

[Note: The above argument applies to arrest and incarceration for violent crime, not property crime or drug crime.  I know of no UCR or survey sources that break down drug and property crimes by race and ethnicity, so as far as I can tell, separating racial bias from arrest and incarceration rates relative to estimated crime rates—a necessary step in determining “systemic racism”—can’t be done.  As the data stands, though, there are 1.5 whites in prison for each black for property crimes, and 1.1 blacks for each white in prison for drug crimes.  I have no idea how the rates of offenses independent of arrest could be estimated for these crimes, but it would be odd to me if systemic racial bias against blacks existed here when it doesn’t exist for violent crime.  Odd, but not beyond belief…]

 

[ Edited: 04 September 2019 17:41 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
Jefe
 
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04 September 2019 12:42
 
DEGENERATEON - 04 September 2019 09:10 AM

Poor phrasing regarding one incident is forgivable.  An outright lie (or egregiously ignorant) statement about THIS incident is a completely different ballpark.  Actually, it’s not even a different ballpark, it’s a different galaxy.  This isn’t just one incident.  This is THE incident.  It’s like comparing some random foiled terrorist plan to 9/11. 

The only thing I’m suggesting is that Warren is completely wrong in this tweet, and the reason is that she is pandering.  Or she is completely ignorant on the topic she is tweeting about.

If there is a double standard on arrest and prosecution for minorities, then why not focus on that?  If that is indeed the larger topic, why continue to spread a lie and hurt the true cause?

If there is a different standard for Warren’s tweet and Trumps constant and demonstrable lying/mistakes/ignorance, where does that leave us?

 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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04 September 2019 13:06
 
Jefe - 04 September 2019 12:42 PM
DEGENERATEON - 04 September 2019 09:10 AM

Poor phrasing regarding one incident is forgivable.  An outright lie (or egregiously ignorant) statement about THIS incident is a completely different ballpark.  Actually, it’s not even a different ballpark, it’s a different galaxy.  This isn’t just one incident.  This is THE incident.  It’s like comparing some random foiled terrorist plan to 9/11. 

The only thing I’m suggesting is that Warren is completely wrong in this tweet, and the reason is that she is pandering.  Or she is completely ignorant on the topic she is tweeting about.

If there is a double standard on arrest and prosecution for minorities, then why not focus on that?  If that is indeed the larger topic, why continue to spread a lie and hurt the true cause?

If there is a different standard for Warren’s tweet and Trumps constant and demonstrable lying/mistakes/ignorance, where does that leave us?

There is a different standard, and it has something to do with Trumps sheer quantity of lying/mistakes/ignorance.  It’s a paradox.  But another difference is that many see Trump as a wrecking ball to the politically correct statements like those from Warren.  Like it or not, it has appeal.  So in my view, putting up a candidate that resorts to this type of pandering strengthens Trumps chance at being elected again.

GAD would vote for him, and he hasn’t been shy on calling the president a lying scum-bag piece of shit.  So what does that tell you?

 

 
Jefe
 
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04 September 2019 13:18
 
DEGENERATEON - 04 September 2019 01:06 PM
Jefe - 04 September 2019 12:42 PM
DEGENERATEON - 04 September 2019 09:10 AM

Poor phrasing regarding one incident is forgivable.  An outright lie (or egregiously ignorant) statement about THIS incident is a completely different ballpark.  Actually, it’s not even a different ballpark, it’s a different galaxy.  This isn’t just one incident.  This is THE incident.  It’s like comparing some random foiled terrorist plan to 9/11. 

The only thing I’m suggesting is that Warren is completely wrong in this tweet, and the reason is that she is pandering.  Or she is completely ignorant on the topic she is tweeting about.

If there is a double standard on arrest and prosecution for minorities, then why not focus on that?  If that is indeed the larger topic, why continue to spread a lie and hurt the true cause?

If there is a different standard for Warren’s tweet and Trumps constant and demonstrable lying/mistakes/ignorance, where does that leave us?

There is a different standard, and it has something to do with Trumps sheer quantity of lying/mistakes/ignorance.  It’s a paradox.  But another difference is that many see Trump as a wrecking ball to the politically correct statements like those from Warren.  Like it or not, it has appeal.  So in my view, putting up a candidate that resorts to this type of pandering strengthens Trumps chance at being elected again.

GAD would vote for him, and he hasn’t been shy on calling the president a lying scum-bag piece of shit.  So what does that tell you?

 

That many voters (including GAD) are willing to shoot themselves in their own foot based on political theatre.
(...or single issue voting, which IMHO is just as bad…)

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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04 September 2019 14:01
 

TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher:

Curious how this issue of disproportionate crime rate isn’t even mentioned in the report, much less rebutted.

It is mentioned – from the report to the UN:  “What might appear at first to be a linkage between race and crime is in large part a function of concentrated urban poverty, which is far more common for African Americans than for other racial groups. This accounts for a substantial portion of African Americans’ increased likelihood of committing certain violent and property crimes. But while there is a higher black rate of involvement in certain crimes, white Americans overestimate the proportion of crime committed by blacks and Latinos, overlook the fact that communities of color are disproportionately victims of crime, and discount the prevalence of bias in the criminal justice system.”

There is little doubt that you can argue a point academically better than I can, but that doesn’t necessarily make you right.  Did you read the posted links with any mind to understanding the problems of race in the American justice system, or did you look only to find some fault to take issue with?  What about the big picture?

My logic is simple (my contention is that, although problems and solutions are often complex, a starting point from a simple moral code is often best):

—An absolute:  There is no such thing as a superior/inferior race(s) – people are people.
—Therefore, when there are discrepancies in accomplishments, crime rates, etc., then there is a societal reason for it – poverty, prejudice, injustice, etc.
—If a minority group(s) continually report prejudice and injustices, they MUST be listened to and taken seriously.  (Not dismissed or criticized as a whole because of outliers.)
—Individual events such as the Ferguson shooting are manipulated by all, used to accuse and divide, rather than to learn lessons from and find solutions.  Failure where there could have been progress.
—When the majority in a society that suffers from racial problems denies, minimizes or is apathetic to the causes, and fails to advance solutions, it indicates an unwillingness to truly accept and stand by the principle that “All men [people] are created equal”.

 

 
 
DEGENERATEON
 
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DEGENERATEON
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04 September 2019 15:09
 

“—Individual events such as the Ferguson shooting are manipulated by all, used to accuse and divide, rather than to learn lessons from and find solutions.  Failure where there could have been progress.”

This is the only significant point I disagree on.  Ferguson wasn’t manipulated by all.  And even today, it is not manipulated by all.  But I find the manipulation of that event to be HEAVILY one sided.

 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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04 September 2019 16:59
 

Jan_CAN

“Did you read the posted links with any mind to understanding the problems of race in the American justice system, or did you look only to find some fault to take issue with?”

Did you, or did you only find something that supported what you already thought based on your prior logic and “simple moral code”?

Mea culpa on forgetting about the mention of the disproportionate crime rate in order to explain it away.  But that dismissal makes my underlying point: that the authors(s) of the report refuse to address the obvious link between arrest, incarceration and crime.  Whether “whites” over-estimate that crime is neither here nor there, and that tendency—if true—offers no justification for ignoring the relative rates when stressing “disproportion relative to population,” as they do throughout the paper.  Relative to crime rates, there is no disproportion in arrests and incarceration of blacks to whites; in fact, there is only an appearance of disproportion because the relative crime rates themselves are disproportional.  That much remains valid in my criticism, despite the slip.

“What might appear at first to be a linkage between race and crime is in large part a function of concentrated urban poverty.”

That “poverty” is a main cause or mediating factor for the different racial crime rate can easily be tested, simply by comparing crime rates among poor whites, poor Hispanics, and poor blacks.  I have not done this test myself (I don’t have access to the resources), but I posted long ago—in a conversation with you, if memory serves—that class and not race is the principle lens through which “racism” in America now needs to be understood.  In fact, I have argued more than once that systemic racism is dead and that the disparities we see now are the complex legacy of its past.  This, however, is a far cry from Warren’s call to fight “systemic racism head on,” and it is a further cry from the author(s)’ misuse of this point in order to dismiss a critical aspect of the “race and crime” problem—the different crime rates. 

My logic is simple (my contention is that, although problems and solutions are often complex, a starting point from a simple moral code is often best):

—An absolute:  There is no such thing as a superior/inferior race(s) – people are people.
—Therefore, when there are discrepancies in accomplishments, crime rates, etc., then there is a societal reason for it – poverty, prejudice, injustice, etc.
—If a minority group(s) continually report prejudice and injustices, they MUST be listened to and taken seriously.  (Not dismissed or criticized as a whole because of outliers.)
—Individual events such as the Ferguson shooting are manipulated by all, used to accuse and divide, rather than to learn lessons from and find solutions.  Failure where there could have been progress.
—When the majority in a society that suffers from racial problems denies, minimizes or is apathetic to the causes, and fails to advance solutions, it indicates an unwillingness to truly accept and stand by the principle that “All men [people] are created equal”.

Except for pointing out that groups like Black Lives Matter and their sympathizers are the only ones distorting or outright falsifying individual events like the Ferguson shooting in order to “accuse and divide,” I agree with the moral thrust of everything you say here.  But, a moral framework is not an empirical framework for solving a social problem, and as such it cannot be the basis of addressing that social problem, only a motive for its solution.  Furthermore, it would be asinine, I think, to say that reports of “prejudice and injustices” go unheeded in our society; that the problems of minorities are not “listened to and taken seriously;” that as a rule they are “dismissed or criticized as a whole because of outliers.”  American society is not reflected in Breitbart, the alt-right, or even Fox News.  To the contrary, more progress has been made on race and discrimination than problems remain.  It would be a shame, in my opinion, to see someone as well-meaning as you invert that situation because of a moral fallacy—that because racism is morally abominable, racial disparities must have racism as a cause.  Although you may not frame the issue in so straightforward a way, that is what I see in your “simple logic.”  In any case, I agree with the moral sentiment entirely while rejecting just as entirely your formulation of the problem. 

We’ll probably just have to agree to disagree there…

 

[ Edited: 04 September 2019 17:37 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
GAD
 
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04 September 2019 17:25
 
Jefe - 04 September 2019 01:18 PM
DEGENERATEON - 04 September 2019 01:06 PM
Jefe - 04 September 2019 12:42 PM
DEGENERATEON - 04 September 2019 09:10 AM

Poor phrasing regarding one incident is forgivable.  An outright lie (or egregiously ignorant) statement about THIS incident is a completely different ballpark.  Actually, it’s not even a different ballpark, it’s a different galaxy.  This isn’t just one incident.  This is THE incident.  It’s like comparing some random foiled terrorist plan to 9/11. 

The only thing I’m suggesting is that Warren is completely wrong in this tweet, and the reason is that she is pandering.  Or she is completely ignorant on the topic she is tweeting about.

If there is a double standard on arrest and prosecution for minorities, then why not focus on that?  If that is indeed the larger topic, why continue to spread a lie and hurt the true cause?

If there is a different standard for Warren’s tweet and Trumps constant and demonstrable lying/mistakes/ignorance, where does that leave us?

There is a different standard, and it has something to do with Trumps sheer quantity of lying/mistakes/ignorance.  It’s a paradox.  But another difference is that many see Trump as a wrecking ball to the politically correct statements like those from Warren.  Like it or not, it has appeal.  So in my view, putting up a candidate that resorts to this type of pandering strengthens Trumps chance at being elected again.

GAD would vote for him, and he hasn’t been shy on calling the president a lying scum-bag piece of shit.  So what does that tell you?

 

That many voters (including GAD) are willing to shoot themselves in their own foot based on political theatre.
(...or single issue voting, which IMHO is just as bad…)

LOL! “political theater”? Her whole platform for president is an extremist nut agenda that amounts to buying votes by telling everyone they are victims and she will heep money on them to fix them. But we are suppose to ignore what she says she will do as “political theater” and believe she will do whatever great things we can imagine? Hell, then I’m already a Trump voter as that is what they did. No matter what bullshit Trump spouted his supporters said he’s just talkn it’s just “political theater” he’ll really do what’s best for us.

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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04 September 2019 17:57
 

TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher,

But, a moral framework is not an empirical framework for social problem, and as such it cannot be the basis of addressing a social problem, only a motive for its solution.

Then what is the proper framework?  If prejudice and systemic racism is not the cause of racial problems in the U.S., then what is?  To deny their existence or impact seems to carry an underlying implication that there must therefore be something wrong with black people.  So yes, I do think that “racial disparities must have racism as a cause”.  What is your explanation for the disparity?

To the contrary, more progress has been made on race and discrimination than problems remain.

That certainly is a matter of opinion.  IMO, progress has been much too slow with the U.S. lagging behind many other countries, with two steps taken backwards with the election of Trump.  The problems seen with BLM and others are a direct result, a backlash, to experienced racism and an impatience for respect and equality.  If the white majority was truly listening to black people’s concerns in a productive manner, some of them wouldn’t feel the need to scream to be heard.

Yes, we’ll probably just have to agree to disagree.

 

 
 
Garret
 
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04 September 2019 18:05
 
DEGENERATEON - 04 September 2019 03:09 PM

“—Individual events such as the Ferguson shooting are manipulated by all, used to accuse and divide, rather than to learn lessons from and find solutions.  Failure where there could have been progress.”

This is the only significant point I disagree on.  Ferguson wasn’t manipulated by all.  And even today, it is not manipulated by all.  But I find the manipulation of that event to be HEAVILY one sided.

You’re manipulating it now and have this entire thread.

You just fail to see what you’re doing as “manipulating” because you think that you’re right.

 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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04 September 2019 18:47
 

Jan_CAN

That there is “something wrong with black people”—though not put so crudely—is the conclusion of some black activists advocating for fewer racial disparities and better outcomes, for blacks and for everyone else, for that matter.  In a recent OP in the The Wall Street Journal, Robert Woodson, a MacArthur grant recipient for his community-building work with underprivileged blacks, says (in response to the recent The New York Times “The 1619 Project”):

“Black America’s history of success and achievement—and its continuing legacy today—is a vital, inspiring part of our nation’s past.  It’s sadly overlooked in “The 1619 Project.” That project also promotes the dangerous idea that the black community is exempt from responsibility to lift itself. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis, some prisons have locks that are on the inside.”

Thomas Sowell, Glenn Lowry, and Wilfred Reilly—all black—have made similar comments, as have black ministers in the churches I’ve read about in urban areas.  In any case, if one wants to see the problem in terms of group identities (I don’t), then yes, blacks are going to have to account for many of the problems “their group” faces.  And to this point, most of the devastating problems we see in black communities today did not exist to the extent that they do now when systemic racism under Jim Crow and segregation existed, i.e. when bona fide racism was as real and as obvious as drinking from a water fountain.  These problems include the high illegitimacy rate, the failure of male child rearing, the incarceration rate, family dysfunction, the crime-plagued neighborhoods, and the threat of murder from other blacks—all of these pathologies have either manifested or increased as white racism has decreased.  This is not to say there is no racism anymore; no one worth listening to says that.  But it does make the cause of these disparities complex, and it does make the statement “racial disparities must have racism as a cause” patently false.  To take just one example that could be multiplied, young blacks ages 15-34 die at a greater rate than young whites of the same age, but the leading cause of death for young blacks is murder at the hands of another black (~45% for ages 15-24 and ~33% for ages 25-34).  Take out murder by another black and young blacks ages 25-34 actually die less frequently than comparable whites. How, then, is white racism the cause of this disparity, as opposed to something internal to these black murderers themselves, or the culture in which they thrive?  This is just one of the points Woodson could be referring to when he says “some prisons have locks that are on the inside.” 

As for the “proper framework”, that’s easy: an empirical framework that reliably identifies trends and their respective causes, not a moral one that assumes causes based one’s moral priorities, and that in opposition to the data.  That much should have been clear in what you quoted.

If the white majority was truly listening to black people’s concerns in a productive manner, some of them wouldn’t feel the need to scream to be heard.

Uh huh, and if the regressive Left would quit whining, accusing, and seeing racism everywhere, then there would be less resistance to listening to the real concerns that afflict blacks. 

 

[ Edited: 04 September 2019 19:09 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
Jan_CAN
 
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04 September 2019 19:27
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 04 September 2019 06:47 PM

Jan_CAN

That there is “something wrong with black people”—though not put so crudely—is the conclusion of some black activists advocating for fewer racial disparities and better outcomes, for blacks and for everyone else, for that matter.  In a recent OP in the The Wall Street Journal, Robert Woodson, a MacArthur grant recipient for his community-building work with underprivileged blacks, says (in response to the recent The New York Times “The 1619 Project”):

“Black America’s history of success and achievement—and its continuing legacy today—is a vital, inspiring part of our nation’s past.  It’s sadly overlooked in “The 1619 Project.” That project also promotes the dangerous idea that the black community is exempt from responsibility to lift itself. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis, some prisons have locks that are on the inside.”

Thomas Sowell, Glenn Lowry, and Wilfred Reilly—all black—have made similar comments, as have black ministers in the churches I’ve read about in urban areas.  In any case, if one wants to see the problem in terms of group identities (I don’t), then yes, blacks are going to have to account for many of the problems “their group” faces.  And to this point, most of the devastating problems we see in black communities today did not exist to the extent that they do now when systemic racism under Jim Crow and segregation existed, i.e. when bona fide racism was as real and as obvious as drinking from a water fountain.  These problems include the high illegitimacy rate, the failure of male child rearing, the incarceration rate, family dysfunction, the crime-plagued neighborhoods, and the threat of murder from other blacks—all of these pathologies have either manifested or increased as white racism has decreased.  This is not to say there is no racism anymore; no one worth listening to says that.  But it does make the cause of these disparities complex, and it does make the statement “racial disparities must have racism as a cause” patently false.  To take just one example that could be multiplied, young blacks ages 15-34 die at a greater rate than young whites of the same age, but the leading cause of death for young blacks is murder at the hands of another black (~45% for ages 15-24 and ~33% for ages 25-34).  Take out murder by another black and young blacks ages 25-34 actually die less frequently than comparable whites. How, then, is white racism the cause of this disparity, as opposed to something internal to these black murderers themselves, or the culture in which they thrive?  This is just one of the points Woodson could be referring to when he says “some prisons have locks that are on the inside.” 

As for the “proper framework”, that’s easy: an empirical framework that reliably identifies trends and their respective causes, not a moral one that assumes causes based one’s moral priorities, and that in opposition to the data.  That much should have been clear in what you quoted.

If the white majority was truly listening to black people’s concerns in a productive manner, some of them wouldn’t feel the need to scream to be heard.

Uh huh, and if the regressive Left would quit whining, accusing, and seeing racism everywhere, then there would be less resistance to listening to the real concerns that afflict blacks.

To be clear, I do not absolve individuals for their actions just because of their race.  And of course there is always more that can be done within their own communities.  However, the problems you describe in the black community as a whole can be attributed to Poverty+Prejudice.  It’s the same old vicious circle that happens to any disadvantaged people.  Empirical data tells a story, but not the whole story.

(I may be wrong, but I detect a certain amount of condescension in your responses rather than a sincere attempt to understand what I’m saying.)

I’m done for now.

 

 
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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04 September 2019 19:54
 

(I may be wrong, but I detect a certain amount of condescension in your responses rather than a sincere attempt to understand what I’m saying.)

I’m done for now.

You are wrong.  What you detect, rightly, is a refusal to accept what you are saying after having understood it just fine. 

The last bit was (slight) sarcasm appropriate to the absurdity of the quoted comment.  If one is true, so is the other, but neither is a fruitful observation.

Fair enough, so am I.

 

 
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