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Mass Shooting in America

 
burt
 
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burt
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12 September 2019 19:31
 
EN - 12 September 2019 05:16 PM
burt - 12 September 2019 05:07 PM
EN - 12 September 2019 02:33 PM
unsmoked - 12 September 2019 12:16 PM
Skipshot - 11 September 2019 07:29 AM

Thanks for the video, Garret.  The viewers’ comments were helpful, too.  An interesting point made by the vid is that an armed minority using guns to protect themselves from a hostile majority plays into the hands of the majority’s cause.  For example, if homosexuals were to defend their civil rights by organizing an armed resistance they would quickly be declared a violent threat to the state and their argument for their civil rights would be forgotten, as demonstrated by the Black panthers in 1967 when a group of armed negroes showed up unannounced at the California state capitol during a legislative session to protect their right to bear arms to protect the black community from police brutality in Oakland.  The Panthers’ stunt convinced the NRA and lawmakers to ban open-carry in California,

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/nra-california-open-carry-ban/

It has been said that the best way to defeat the NRA is for every black person in the U.S. to sign up as a member of the NRA.

Is it generally recognized that the people who ratified the Second Amendment were white supremacists?  Virginia had about 300,000 slaves in 1790.  Not even allowed guns for hunting rabbits?

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/media/us-census-1790/

It was ratified by non-slave holding states, as well. Bernie Sanders supports the Second Amendment, just not the extreme version of it pushed by the NRA, who would allow individuals to carry hand-held nuclear devices, if such existed.

Can you get me one of those?

You will have to pass my extensive background check, and having read all your posts, I don’t think you can.

No background checks, this is a private sale.

 
Jefe
 
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12 September 2019 21:51
 
EN - 12 September 2019 02:33 PM

It was ratified by non-slave holding states, as well. Bernie Sanders supports the Second Amendment, just not the extreme version of it pushed by the NRA, who would allow individuals to carry hand-held nuclear devices, if such existed.

... and if they could profit from said sales.

 
 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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13 September 2019 11:17
 
Jefe - 12 September 2019 09:51 PM
EN - 12 September 2019 02:33 PM

It was ratified by non-slave holding states, as well. Bernie Sanders supports the Second Amendment, just not the extreme version of it pushed by the NRA, who would allow individuals to carry hand-held nuclear devices, if such existed.

... and if they could profit from said sales.

I wonder how many ‘ordinary workers’ have access to material like depleted uranium?  https://www.commondreams.org/views/2004/12/11/how-dangerous-depleted-uranium

 

 
 
Jan_CAN
 
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Jan_CAN
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14 September 2019 12:38
 

145 CEOs demand action on gun violence
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/12/business/business-leaders-letter-gun-violence/index.html

Their plea, which follows the recent rash of mass shootings, is among Corporate America’s strongest statements yet against America’s gun violence epidemic.

In a draft letter addressed to the Senate, the leaders demand that lawmakers “support common-sense gun laws” already passed by the House and that “doing nothing about America’s gun violence crisis is simply unacceptable.” It was first obtained by the New York Times.

“This diverse coalition of leading companies knows what consumers want and, for the first time, is using its combined clout and knowledge to push for common sense gun safety legislation,” said John Feinblatt, president of Everytown for Gun Safety in the release. “This unified corporate action represents a sea change in American culture. The experts on America’s consumers are speaking, and our elected officials should listen.”

“Recent mass shootings across the country have been heartbreaking,” the organization said in a statement. “After decades of these tragedies scarring American communities, these shootings can no longer be treated as isolated events. This issue matters to Business Roundtable members because those affected are our employees, customers and neighbors — gun violence is an epidemic in America that needs to be addressed.”

Perhaps the tide is turning?  And a cause for optimism to see that there is a segment of Corporate America that do have a social conscience?

 

 
 
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14 September 2019 14:24
 

Fox News commentator, Tomi Lahren, signals that Americans need guns to defend against hoards of illegal immigrants:  https://news.yahoo.com/tomi-lahren-guns-defend-ourselves-183133323.html

“And all the things the Democrats want to put in place—my goodness, if they want to open our borders, you better be sure the people in Texas, the people in South Dakota, the people in the middle of this country, we are going to be armed and ready,” she exclaimed. “Because we have to have a means to defend ourselves from—who knows who’s coming in? That’s the thing, we don’t know, and we have to be able to protect ourselves.”

Sounds like it’s time to shoot up more places where immigrants gather.  Does this mean she’s justifying the El Paso shooter?  How is a fearful bigot going to know which immigrants are dangerous and which ones are not?  Better not take any chances and just shoot them all, and use as a defense, “I feared for my life.”

 
no_profundia
 
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no_profundia
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14 September 2019 18:37
 
Skipshot - 14 September 2019 02:24 PM

Fox News commentator, Tomi Lahren, signals that Americans need guns to defend against hoards of illegal immigrants:  https://news.yahoo.com/tomi-lahren-guns-defend-ourselves-183133323.html

“And all the things the Democrats want to put in place—my goodness, if they want to open our borders, you better be sure the people in Texas, the people in South Dakota, the people in the middle of this country, we are going to be armed and ready,” she exclaimed. “Because we have to have a means to defend ourselves from—who knows who’s coming in? That’s the thing, we don’t know, and we have to be able to protect ourselves.”

Sounds like it’s time to shoot up more places where immigrants gather.  Does this mean she’s justifying the El Paso shooter?  How is a fearful bigot going to know which immigrants are dangerous and which ones are not?  Better not take any chances and just shoot them all, and use as a defense, “I feared for my life.”

I can’t decide whether Tomi Lahren and some of the other right-wing Twitter personalities really believe what they say or are just creating a brand that they can make money off of by saying things that will inflame leftist woke Twitter and drive eyes to them. I spend a fair amount of time on Twitter (shameful I know) and Tomi is not the only one who does this. I find it to be one of the more disgusting aspects of our current culture.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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14 September 2019 18:42
 
no_profundia - 14 September 2019 06:37 PM
Skipshot - 14 September 2019 02:24 PM

Fox News commentator, Tomi Lahren, signals that Americans need guns to defend against hoards of illegal immigrants:  https://news.yahoo.com/tomi-lahren-guns-defend-ourselves-183133323.html

“And all the things the Democrats want to put in place—my goodness, if they want to open our borders, you better be sure the people in Texas, the people in South Dakota, the people in the middle of this country, we are going to be armed and ready,” she exclaimed. “Because we have to have a means to defend ourselves from—who knows who’s coming in? That’s the thing, we don’t know, and we have to be able to protect ourselves.”

Sounds like it’s time to shoot up more places where immigrants gather.  Does this mean she’s justifying the El Paso shooter?  How is a fearful bigot going to know which immigrants are dangerous and which ones are not?  Better not take any chances and just shoot them all, and use as a defense, “I feared for my life.”

I can’t decide whether Tomi Lahren and some of the other right-wing Twitter personalities really believe what they say or are just creating a brand that they can make money off of by saying things that will inflame leftist woke Twitter and drive eyes to them. I spend a fair amount of time on Twitter (shameful I know) and Tomi is not the only one who does this. I find it to be one of the more disgusting aspects of our current culture.

I you want your money for nothing you need fame and popularity to get eyeballs and nothing gets that better then being extreme.

 
 
Garret
 
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Garret
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14 September 2019 21:49
 
no_profundia - 14 September 2019 06:37 PM
Skipshot - 14 September 2019 02:24 PM

Fox News commentator, Tomi Lahren, signals that Americans need guns to defend against hoards of illegal immigrants:  https://news.yahoo.com/tomi-lahren-guns-defend-ourselves-183133323.html

“And all the things the Democrats want to put in place—my goodness, if they want to open our borders, you better be sure the people in Texas, the people in South Dakota, the people in the middle of this country, we are going to be armed and ready,” she exclaimed. “Because we have to have a means to defend ourselves from—who knows who’s coming in? That’s the thing, we don’t know, and we have to be able to protect ourselves.”

Sounds like it’s time to shoot up more places where immigrants gather.  Does this mean she’s justifying the El Paso shooter?  How is a fearful bigot going to know which immigrants are dangerous and which ones are not?  Better not take any chances and just shoot them all, and use as a defense, “I feared for my life.”

I can’t decide whether Tomi Lahren and some of the other right-wing Twitter personalities really believe what they say or are just creating a brand that they can make money off of by saying things that will inflame leftist woke Twitter and drive eyes to them. I spend a fair amount of time on Twitter (shameful I know) and Tomi is not the only one who does this. I find it to be one of the more disgusting aspects of our current culture.

There’s a fairly strong sentiment right now that any stance that “owns the libs” is a good stance.  This desire to “own the libs” is so strong that you see it quite often even on these forums.  I’m not sure what it will take for people to realize that this is a poor ideology to determine ones values by.  Not everyone who isn’t liberal expresses it obviously… some people do actually express conservative thought.

[ Edited: 14 September 2019 21:53 by Garret]
 
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15 September 2019 06:00
 
Garret - 14 September 2019 09:49 PM

[... some people do actually express conservative thought.

No doubt, but a pillar of conservative thought, William F. Buckley, is reported to have said to his son, “You know, I’ve spent my entire life time separating the Right from the kooks.” (source)

Regretfully, the kooks have taken the wheel from the conservatives and are driving the bus now.  Those conservatives have decided, out of general principle or single issue principle, that their crazies are a better option than anything else, and Billy is a good example.  His views on many other issues align with liberal ones, but his hot button is gun rights, and any talk of restricting access to guns is taken as a very serious threat to his life and the viability of our republic, which puts him in the dilemma of the kooks or his guns.

 
burt
 
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burt
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15 September 2019 09:03
 
Skipshot - 15 September 2019 06:00 AM
Garret - 14 September 2019 09:49 PM

[... some people do actually express conservative thought.

No doubt, but a pillar of conservative thought, William F. Buckley, is reported to have said to his son, “You know, I’ve spent my entire life time separating the Right from the kooks.” (source)

Regretfully, the kooks have taken the wheel from the conservatives and are driving the bus now.  Those conservatives have decided, out of general principle or single issue principle, that their crazies are a better option than anything else, and Billy is a good example.  His views on many other issues align with liberal ones, but his hot button is gun rights, and any talk of restricting access to guns is taken as a very serious threat to his life and the viability of our republic, which puts him in the dilemma of the kooks or his guns.


A few days ago, waiting in a chiropractor office I was browsing a copy of The Economist where the lead articles were about the worldwide take over of conservatism by the kooks. Headline was something like “The Death of Conservatism.”

 
Jefe
 
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15 September 2019 10:18
 
burt - 15 September 2019 09:03 AM
Skipshot - 15 September 2019 06:00 AM
Garret - 14 September 2019 09:49 PM

[... some people do actually express conservative thought.

No doubt, but a pillar of conservative thought, William F. Buckley, is reported to have said to his son, “You know, I’ve spent my entire life time separating the Right from the kooks.” (source)

Regretfully, the kooks have taken the wheel from the conservatives and are driving the bus now.  Those conservatives have decided, out of general principle or single issue principle, that their crazies are a better option than anything else, and Billy is a good example.  His views on many other issues align with liberal ones, but his hot button is gun rights, and any talk of restricting access to guns is taken as a very serious threat to his life and the viability of our republic, which puts him in the dilemma of the kooks or his guns.


A few days ago, waiting in a chiropractor office I was browsing a copy of The Economist where the lead articles were about the worldwide take over of conservatism by the kooks. Headline was something like “The Death of Conservatism.”

Big blocks of die-hard conservative votes do tend to come from the kooks.

 
 
no_profundia
 
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no_profundia
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15 September 2019 11:27
 

A few days ago, waiting in a chiropractor office I was browsing a copy of The Economist where the lead articles were about the worldwide take over of conservatism by the kooks. Headline was something like “The Death of Conservatism.”

I have been wondering for a while if there is an asymmetry in the stories we tell about the right and the left.

The right is getting more extreme and “kooky”. I think all the data unambiguously supports that. I suspect the left is becoming more extreme as well although I don’t think the data is quite as unambiguous on that point (I am basing this off a chart from a lecture Jonathan Haidt gave and I’m not sure what years the data covered).

Here is what I have found peculiar: It seems like the left often gets blamed for the right’s drift towards extremes. I saw someone on Twitter the other day make this statement about themselves: that the left’s PC culture was driving him to become more racist. And you see lots of think pieces where we are asked to try to understand those on the right - their economic plight and so on and their drift to the right as an understandable reaction to their situation.

But I almost never see the reverse. I almost never see the growing extremism on the left being explained by the growing extremism on the right. It seems that the drift to the left of the left is viewed as endogenous while the drift to the right of the right is viewed as a reaction. I sometimes wonder if the reverse story is more accurate (I actually suspect neither story is really true but there are underlying dynamics that explain both moves towards extremism).

What is everyone else’s impressions on this? Is there really this asymmetry in how things are reported or have I just missed all the think pieces about how the left’s move left is a reaction to the right?

Maybe I should have started a new thread on this but since the topic came up, and I have been thinking about it, I thought I would see what everyone thought.

 
 
unsmoked
 
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15 September 2019 11:52
 
no_profundia - 15 September 2019 11:27 AM

A few days ago, waiting in a chiropractor office I was browsing a copy of The Economist where the lead articles were about the worldwide take over of conservatism by the kooks. Headline was something like “The Death of Conservatism.”

I have been wondering for a while if there is an asymmetry in the stories we tell about the right and the left.

The right is getting more extreme and “kooky”. I think all the data unambiguously supports that. I suspect the left is becoming more extreme as well although I don’t think the data is quite as unambiguous on that point (I am basing this off a chart from a lecture Jonathan Haidt gave and I’m not sure what years the data covered).

Here is what I have found peculiar: It seems like the left often gets blamed for the right’s drift towards extremes. I saw someone on Twitter the other day make this statement about themselves: that the left’s PC culture was driving him to become more racist. And you see lots of think pieces where we are asked to try to understand those on the right - their economic plight and so on and their drift to the right as an understandable reaction to their situation.

But I almost never see the reverse. I almost never see the growing extremism on the left being explained by the growing extremism on the right. It seems that the drift to the left of the left is viewed as endogenous while the drift to the right of the right is viewed as a reaction. I sometimes wonder if the reverse story is more accurate (I actually suspect neither story is really true but there are underlying dynamics that explain both moves towards extremism).

What is everyone else’s impressions on this? Is there really this asymmetry in how things are reported or have I just missed all the think pieces about how the left’s move left is a reaction to the right?

Maybe I should have started a new thread on this but since the topic came up, and I have been thinking about it, I thought I would see what everyone thought.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/worlds-happiest-countries-united-nations-2019/index.html

. . . And that’s not just about the native-born residents of those countries.

“It’s true that last year all Finns were happier than rest of the countries’ residents, but their immigrants were also happiest immigrants in the world,” says Helliwell. “It’s not about Finnish DNA. It’s the way life is lived in those countries.”

They pay high taxes for a social safety net, they trust their government, they live in freedom and they are generous with each other. “They do care about each other,” he says. “That’s the kind of place people want to live.”

 
 
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15 September 2019 16:45
 
no_profundia - 15 September 2019 11:27 AM

What is everyone else’s impressions on this? Is there really this asymmetry in how things are reported or have I just missed all the think pieces about how the left’s move left is a reaction to the right?

I have the same impression, especially since the election of Obama and the rise of the Tea Party signaling a doubling down of their move further to the right when the right loses an election.  In Obama’s case, there were calls for impeachment before he was inaugurated, which spawned the birthers, claims of him being a Muslim operative, and that the entire country had to be mad to elect such a person (meaning a black man with a Muslim name).  Their echo chambers of right wing talk shows turned up the volume and intensity of false claims rather than admit a change, which eventually led to “Make America Great Again” with their standard bearer, Trump.

It seems the more white people lose on social and cultural issues, the further to the right they go.  They are living in a fabled past which faded away long ago and are fighting to preserve it, and their efforts are successfully pulling the left further to the right, which some on the left are just now resisting and countering with rhetoric which goes further than the traditional American left.

 
Garret
 
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15 September 2019 19:51
 
no_profundia - 15 September 2019 11:27 AM

Here is what I have found peculiar: It seems like the left often gets blamed for the right’s drift towards extremes. I saw someone on Twitter the other day make this statement about themselves: that the left’s PC culture was driving him to become more racist. And you see lots of think pieces where we are asked to try to understand those on the right - their economic plight and so on and their drift to the right as an understandable reaction to their situation.

I think this deserves it’s own thread, but i’ll give an unfulfilling short reply, and if it gets it’s own thread, we can do more.

We were a country based on racism and patriarchy.  The rules of those systems have largely disappeared, but the after effects will continue for generations (a rock falling in a pool creates waves, and then if we go and pull the rock out, we make even more waves).  Antiracist efforts like black power movements, BLM, civil rights, etc… and feminism have helped to redefine what it means to be black or female (and the same goes for other movements).  The problem right now is that our society has not simultaneously redefined what it is to be male or white (or the ‘norm’ that opposed other movements).  Capitalist forces have found that appealing to the previously held stereotypes of maleness and whiteness are good ways to market products, and so we have media forces that sell products to men that tell them the old version of maleness is within their grasp if they just buy the bigger truck, but that is a lie.  If we examine phenomenon like incels, it’s easy to see how young men are struggling with the cognitive dissonance of the old definitions and a world telling them that those definitions don’t apply any more.  Part of the struggle now is for white men to provide themselves with a new definition of themselves that just defines who they are without creating a hierarchy against other genders and races.  Feminists and non-white people can’t provide that definition for us though.  One, it isn’t their place.  Two, just like they don’t want white men defining them, it would be antithetical to the movement to turn around and do it in return.

There’s an identity crisis going on for part of our culture, and that segment of the culture is powerful.  Those who can direct it for their own ends can either do a lot of good, or a lot of harm.

 
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