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The Children’s Crusade

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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06 October 2019 21:34
 
 
 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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07 October 2019 13:34
 
GAD - 06 October 2019 02:35 PM
unsmoked - 06 October 2019 12:55 PM

$9000 for an electric car.  Time to impose stiff tariffs to keep them away from U.S. buyers.

(I provided a link for the following quote, but that caused this post to be blocked.) 

The price of Great Wall Motor’s 2019 Ora R1 electric car starts at $8,680. (Photo Credit: Great Wall Motors)

Sure, Tesla’s Roadster is the “quickest car in the world,” but one Chinese company is betting their new electric vehicle will “catalyze a new generation of electric cars” — by being the most affordable (and the cutest?) in the market today.  [see photo]

Great Wall Motor recently debuted their 2019 Ora R1 electric car, from their newly-launched EV subsidiary. The four-seat mini Ora delivers a maximum cruising range of 194 miles (351 km) and will be available for a hot price: between 59,800 and 77,800 yuan ($8,680 to $11,293). That makes it the cheapest electric car in the market, a fraction of the cost of a Tesla.

I’m sure you big spenders can count on Trump to keep the Ora R1 out of the U.S. but what happens when the Greta Thunberg Generation finds out about it?

There is no world conspiracy, give it up man, please. China is a basically a massive corporation, they own the workers, they invest, subsidize and manipulate everything, and support and encourage IP theft. We don’t have $9000 EV here not because of some secret conspiracy, but because we don’t do what China does and I don’t think there is a single person here who would ever vote for us becoming like China. Deal with reality dude!

I think you once mentioned your kids, or grandchildren.  I have two granddaughters - 16 and 18.  We are passing a damaged planet to these kids and it’s getting worse by the day.

If a Chinese car company can produce an electric car for $9000 retail, think what the U.S. government could produce even in a short time.  In 1941 the U.S. suddenly started making war planes and by 1945 had made 300,000 of them.  About in the same time we suddenly made 50,000 Sherman tanks.

Given that we can make some of the most advanced flying weapons in the world (probably using Chinese electronic components) and sell surplus to the Prince of Arabia and the like, think how we could suddenly orchestrate the major auto companies to make millions of affordable EV’s, along with thousands of solar charging stations nationwide. 

Luckily for them, my granddaughters are 2000 miles away from my ranting, but like others their age, comfy in the bosom of middle class America, they will become increasingly aware of climate change and its consequences, and the voices of their concerned classmates and science teachers.

There are dozens of new books coming out that explain why we aren’t treating climate change like, for example, the threat of the Axis Powers in 1939, or 1941.  There are dozens of talented writers and scientists explaining how and why we are in the grip of the fossil fuel industry.  How many years until Miami and New York etc. etc. get flooded?  Yawn.

I was exactly one year old when Chamberlain came back to Britain after signing a peace agreement with Hitler.  I was 4 when more than 300 Luftwaffe bombers flew over us heading for the shipyards 5 miles to the north.  Therefore, I’m allowed to rant.  Miami will not be lost to the tides and hurricanes!  Deal with reality?

“We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and ...”  Winston Churchill

 

 

[ Edited: 07 October 2019 13:46 by unsmoked]
 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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07 October 2019 14:28
 
unsmoked - 07 October 2019 01:34 PM

If a Chinese car company can produce an electric car for $9000 retail, think what the U.S. government could produce even in a short time.

Better yet, think how cheap the Nazis could have built them. It’s easy with slave labor and no regulations.

If the U.S. government tried to build them, they’d cost at least $90,000 retail and it would take forever to get them to market.
.

 
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
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07 October 2019 16:13
 

Absent changing how we generate electricity for the power grid, electric cars won’t offset the climate impact due to transportation using internal combustion engines.  In fact, if you got internal combustion cars up to 50 miles per gallon, under current power generation in the US electric cars and internal combustion cars would be climate-change wash.  People forget that we lose 30% of generated electrical capacity to resistance in the power lines running from the point of generation to end use, and they also seem to forget that fossil fuels still account for the majority of electricity generated on the grid (essentially the electric car is someone else burning the fossil fuels for you so you can feel good about climate change).  In any case, with clean energy generation, electric cars are the way to go—sort of—but absent fundamentally transforming our power system—including upping it’s capacity by at least 40%—one can come out just as well by making internal combustion cars more efficient, at least until the absurd range and charging limitations of electric cars are overcome.  For imagine an economy—including both consumer and commercial transportation—limited to a transport system with a 300-500 mile range between 4-6 hour recharge cycles.  Not something I want to deal with, I’m sure, not if a quicker short term solution is improving the vehicles we have now, for the same net CO2 impact until the more fundamental transformations are in place.

[ Edited: 07 October 2019 17:02 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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07 October 2019 17:25
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 07 October 2019 04:13 PM

In fact, if you got internal combustion cars up to 50 miles per gallon, under current power generation in the US electric cars and internal combustion cars would be climate-change wash.

I’ve wondered about this. Where did you get that number, 50 mpg?

 
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
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08 October 2019 07:20
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 07 October 2019 05:25 PM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 07 October 2019 04:13 PM

In fact, if you got internal combustion cars up to 50 miles per gallon, under current power generation in the US electric cars and internal combustion cars would be climate-change wash.

I’ve wondered about this. Where did you get that number, 50 mpg?

From converting the energy output of gasoline into kWh, pro-rating for the relative efficiency of internal combustion and electric engines, then looking at the aggregate mileage of commercial and non-commercial traffic annually.  From there it’s a matter of C02 emissions for gasoline engines for the given mileage versus emissions from generating the electricity necessary to power electric cars.  That apples-to-apples comparison comes out to about 50 mpg. 

At least I think that’s how I did it, and that’s the result I remember (it’s been a couple of years since this came up in a conversation, and I no longer have the napkin I sketched it on…)

In any case, exactitude aside—and the data are estimates from online sources—the principle holds that given how we generate power, there is a convergent mpg where electric cars and internal combustion engines come out as a climate change wash.  Given their limitations and the impact those limitations would have on our economy absent the costs of the infrastructure and amenities required to make electric cars and trucks work…given those factors, the electric car is not the first line of defense we should be aiming at to reduce our carbon footprint, in my opinion. 

 

[ Edited: 08 October 2019 07:22 by TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher]
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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08 October 2019 11:49
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 08 October 2019 07:20 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 07 October 2019 05:25 PM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 07 October 2019 04:13 PM

In fact, if you got internal combustion cars up to 50 miles per gallon, under current power generation in the US electric cars and internal combustion cars would be climate-change wash.

I’ve wondered about this. Where did you get that number, 50 mpg?

From converting the energy output of gasoline into kWh, pro-rating for the relative efficiency of internal combustion and electric engines, then looking at the aggregate mileage of commercial and non-commercial traffic annually.  From there it’s a matter of C02 emissions for gasoline engines for the given mileage versus emissions from generating the electricity necessary to power electric cars.  That apples-to-apples comparison comes out to about 50 mpg. 

At least I think that’s how I did it, and that’s the result I remember (it’s been a couple of years since this came up in a conversation, and I no longer have the napkin I sketched it on…)

In any case, exactitude aside—and the data are estimates from online sources—the principle holds that given how we generate power, there is a convergent mpg where electric cars and internal combustion engines come out as a climate change wash.  Given their limitations and the impact those limitations would have on our economy absent the costs of the infrastructure and amenities required to make electric cars and trucks work…given those factors, the electric car is not the first line of defense we should be aiming at to reduce our carbon footprint, in my opinion.

Here is a website that mentions the metric, mpge, or miles per gallon equivalent: “the distance a car can travel under electric power on the same amount of energy that’s contained in 1 gallon of gasoline.” According to this website, the BMW i3 (I’m assuming they’re referring to the electric-only model) gets 124 mpge. Too bad they don’t show their calculations.

The 30% loss due to transmission and distribution lines you mentioned might help explain the difference. Then again, one could argue that transporting oil to refineries and gasoline to gas stations create a kind of inefficiency of their own that should be taken into account.

I agree that recharge time is probably the biggest obstacle to electric cars becoming more popular.

 
 
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher
 
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08 October 2019 12:34
 

ASD

The resistance in transmission and the inefficiency of the power generation method have to be taken into account.  For instance, coal fired plants are not very thermally efficient (~35%), while gas and coal together is higher (about 55%). 

Like I said, the exact number could vary, but the calculations I’ve seen (like the article you cite) take neither of these factors into account when considering the net CO2 emissions of electric cars.  That article, for instance, focuses on cost per unit energy, not net CO2 emissions…
 
A simple way to look at it is this—at least for myself: if 81% of the energy in the US is generated using fossil fuels in plants that are 35-55% percent efficient, with a 30% loss in transmission lines, that 123 mpg means that someone else is burning the fossil fuels for you to get that gasoline substitute.  Thus that 123 mpg equivalent for an electric car ends up costing the net emissions—roughly—of some equivalent mpg in a straight up gasoline car.  With electric cars under today’s power, it’s who’s burning the fossil fuels, not whether we burn fossil fuels.

Again, I am not dissing electric cars completely.  If we generated 81% of our electricity with these newer, cleaner, idiot-proof nuclear reactors, the matter changes.  Then you really are getting something like that 123 mpg with fewer carbon emissions, albeit with a much more limited range punctuated by long recharge downtime.

You are right of course that transportation among fossil fuels and the costs of refining need to be considered.  To that point I’ve read the ethanol in gas is a net emissions wash, as the corn from which it is derived captures as much CO2 that burning the ethanol releases.  So cars with the capacity to run on higher ratios of ethanol would help—what’s called Flex Fuel now, I think.

 
unsmoked
 
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08 October 2019 13:03
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 08 October 2019 11:49 AM

I agree that recharge time is probably the biggest obstacle to electric cars becoming more popular.

Giant tech companies like Google, and companies like Amazon, Boeing etc. etc. could easily afford to put solar powered charging hookups in their employee parking lots.  It will soon be common knowledge to the children of the ‘Children’s Crusade’ (when they are in their 20’s and voting) that American engineers, today, could easily design a state-of-the-art EV that could be mass-produced by the big auto manufacturers (say 20 million of them all the same) and retailed for less than $10,000.  (Ford made more than 15 million Model T’s).  https://www.history.com/topics/inventions/model-t

About 15 years ago my sister-in-law bought a Honda Civic that got 65 mpg highway, and at least 50 mpg city.  It’s still her only car.  Car buffs approach her and offer to buy it.

Years ago on this forum I started a topic called something like, ‘Useful Technology Not Applied.’  When they come of age, people of the Children’s Crusade will know what we could have done to prevent the damaged planet they are inheriting, but we goofed around instead.  Do you really think our grandkids won’t know what we have done and what we could have done?

This morning I was reading in the Sep. 30 New Yorker a brief article about solar cookers.  The cheapest one is made of cardboard and aluminum foil and costs about nothing.  As we speak, billions of people around the planet, mostly women and girls, are bending over smoky fires - preparing food.  Every day they have to go further and further afield to find branches, brush, dung to use as fuel - denuding the countryside.  They have to breath eye-stinging smoke as they cook.  As soon as it was formed in 1948 think how easily the WHO could have made sure those billions of people had a solar cooker.  https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/09/30/alan-bigelows-solar-cooking-revolution

(The WHO, the World Health Organization was established in 1948 as a specialized agency of the United Nations serving as the directing and coordinating authority for international health matters and public health.)

https://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/7-solar-cooker-wins-75000-climate-change-challenge.html

https://thediyoutlet.com/products/foldable-pool-spa-outdoor-solar-shower-w-base-sprinkler-6-6-gal?

cartoon - Greta Thunberg in 3rd grade?  https://jackziegler.com/product/perhaps-ill-enjoy-sharing-whats-on-your-ipod-honey-when-hell-freezes-over/

 

[ Edited: 08 October 2019 13:20 by unsmoked]
 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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08 October 2019 20:54
 

Wait, what is this, Chinese EV’s struggling for sales, 6 billion in debt so far, blamed on a reduction in subsidies. This sounds like every other EV company in the world, guess China isn’t so magic after all. 

https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/08/after-several-disappointing-quarters-chinese-ev-maker-nios-sales-surge/

 
 
unsmoked
 
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09 October 2019 12:43
 
GAD - 08 October 2019 08:54 PM

Wait, what is this, Chinese EV’s struggling for sales, 6 billion in debt so far, blamed on a reduction in subsidies. This sounds like every other EV company in the world, guess China isn’t so magic after all. 

https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/08/after-several-disappointing-quarters-chinese-ev-maker-nios-sales-surge/

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/08/768373897/how-electric-cars-will-change-driving-and-the-economy

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/01/cars/future-of-electric-car-charging/index.html

IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL BUY

Electric cars don’t need fast chargers all the time, of course. The vast majority of the time, electric cars are charged at home or at work, using chargers that can take six to eight hours. Fast chargers are different. They are designed to quickly fill a car’s battery—not all the way, which would stress the battery, but usually up to about 80%—so people can get back on their way.

Fast chargers are usually only needed when people want to go on long drives. These chargers are important, though, because people considering buying an electric car need to have confidence they can take the occasional road trip.

My father bought a Model T for several hundred dollars while courting my mother.  They went on far-flung road trips (maybe 50 miles) on bad roads with those 1920’s tires.  Daredevils.  Look what it led to.

Did Eisenhower get his ideas for the Interstate Highways from seeing the Autobahn?

https://www.businessinsider.com/volkswagen-beetle-history-2016-4  Imagine an EV that every driver could afford because of mass production, robot assembly etc.  The JOLT?  A state-of-the-art car designed to be easily receptive to improved batteries and other year by year innovations?

I realize this is a fantasy, but Greta Thunberg’s generation, our grandkids, will make it a reality as sea-level cities around the world flood, and forest towns like Paradise CA burn . . .  not to mention, more of their generation will ride bicycles, eat less meat, fewer will be obese, and more will take solar-heated showers.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Jaxpety-Solar-Heated-Shower-Spa-Poolside-Beach-Hot-Cold-Base-5-3-Gallons-Outdoor/310891310?  (The Children’s Crusade)

 

[ Edited: 09 October 2019 12:46 by unsmoked]
 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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09 October 2019 19:06
 
unsmoked - 09 October 2019 12:43 PM
GAD - 08 October 2019 08:54 PM

Wait, what is this, Chinese EV’s struggling for sales, 6 billion in debt so far, blamed on a reduction in subsidies. This sounds like every other EV company in the world, guess China isn’t so magic after all. 

https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/08/after-several-disappointing-quarters-chinese-ev-maker-nios-sales-surge/

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/08/768373897/how-electric-cars-will-change-driving-and-the-economy

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/01/cars/future-of-electric-car-charging/index.html

IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL BUY

Electric cars don’t need fast chargers all the time, of course. The vast majority of the time, electric cars are charged at home or at work, using chargers that can take six to eight hours. Fast chargers are different. They are designed to quickly fill a car’s battery—not all the way, which would stress the battery, but usually up to about 80%—so people can get back on their way.

Fast chargers are usually only needed when people want to go on long drives. These chargers are important, though, because people considering buying an electric car need to have confidence they can take the occasional road trip.

My father bought a Model T for several hundred dollars while courting my mother.  They went on far-flung road trips (maybe 50 miles) on bad roads with those 1920’s tires.  Daredevils.  Look what it led to.

Did Eisenhower get his ideas for the Interstate Highways from seeing the Autobahn?

https://www.businessinsider.com/volkswagen-beetle-history-2016-4  Imagine an EV that every driver could afford because of mass production, robot assembly etc.  The JOLT?  A state-of-the-art car designed to be easily receptive to improved batteries and other year by year innovations?

I realize this is a fantasy, but Greta Thunberg’s generation, our grandkids, will make it a reality as sea-level cities around the world flood, and forest towns like Paradise CA burn . . .  not to mention, more of their generation will ride bicycles, eat less meat, fewer will be obese, and more will take solar-heated showers.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Jaxpety-Solar-Heated-Shower-Spa-Poolside-Beach-Hot-Cold-Base-5-3-Gallons-Outdoor/310891310?  (The Children’s Crusade)

 

If ever read what I write then you would know that I am 100% for EV’s, they can’t come soon enough for me, I watch, research and talk EV tech constantly with my friends. I’m only trying to tell you that whining about shit and conspiracies and posting about a whiny ignorant teenage girl does absolutely fucking nothing to help anything or change reality. 

 

 
 
unsmoked
 
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unsmoked
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10 October 2019 11:05
 
GAD - 09 October 2019 07:06 PM
unsmoked - 09 October 2019 12:43 PM
GAD - 08 October 2019 08:54 PM

Wait, what is this, Chinese EV’s struggling for sales, 6 billion in debt so far, blamed on a reduction in subsidies. This sounds like every other EV company in the world, guess China isn’t so magic after all. 

https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/08/after-several-disappointing-quarters-chinese-ev-maker-nios-sales-surge/

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/08/768373897/how-electric-cars-will-change-driving-and-the-economy

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/01/cars/future-of-electric-car-charging/index.html

IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL BUY

Electric cars don’t need fast chargers all the time, of course. The vast majority of the time, electric cars are charged at home or at work, using chargers that can take six to eight hours. Fast chargers are different. They are designed to quickly fill a car’s battery—not all the way, which would stress the battery, but usually up to about 80%—so people can get back on their way.

Fast chargers are usually only needed when people want to go on long drives. These chargers are important, though, because people considering buying an electric car need to have confidence they can take the occasional road trip.

My father bought a Model T for several hundred dollars while courting my mother.  They went on far-flung road trips (maybe 50 miles) on bad roads with those 1920’s tires.  Daredevils.  Look what it led to.

Did Eisenhower get his ideas for the Interstate Highways from seeing the Autobahn?

https://www.businessinsider.com/volkswagen-beetle-history-2016-4  Imagine an EV that every driver could afford because of mass production, robot assembly etc.  The JOLT?  A state-of-the-art car designed to be easily receptive to improved batteries and other year by year innovations?

I realize this is a fantasy, but Greta Thunberg’s generation, our grandkids, will make it a reality as sea-level cities around the world flood, and forest towns like Paradise CA burn . . .  not to mention, more of their generation will ride bicycles, eat less meat, fewer will be obese, and more will take solar-heated showers.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Jaxpety-Solar-Heated-Shower-Spa-Poolside-Beach-Hot-Cold-Base-5-3-Gallons-Outdoor/310891310?  (The Children’s Crusade)

 

If ever read what I write then you would know that I am 100% for EV’s, they can’t come soon enough for me, I watch, research and talk EV tech constantly with my friends. I’m only trying to tell you that whining about shit and conspiracies and posting about a whiny ignorant teenage girl does absolutely fucking nothing to help anything or change reality.

You would whine too if you were inheriting the world.she’s inheriting. 

A quote about the book, ‘FALTER’ by Bill McKibben:

“It’s not an exaggeration to say that Bill McKibben has written a book so important, reading it might save your life, not to mention your home: Planet Earth. Falter is a brilliant, impassioned call to arms to save our climate from those profiting from its destruction before it’s too late. Over and over, McKibben has proven one of the most farsighted and gifted voices of our times, and with Falter he has topped himself, producing a book that honestly, everyone should read.” —Jane Mayer, bestselling author of Dark Money

Praise for Jane Mayer’s Dark Money

“Revelatory. . . . Persuasive, timely and necessary.” —The New York Times

“Dark Money is more than just a work of political journalism—it’s a vital portrait of a nation that, as perhaps never before, is being shaped by a few very rich, very conservative businessmen.” —San Francisco Chronicle

“Absolutely necessary reading for anyone who wants to make sense of our politics.” —The New York Review of Books

“Deeply researched and studded with detail . . . Seems destined to rattle the Koch executive offices in Wichita as other investigations have not.” —Washington Post

“With such turmoil on the right wing of American politics, reading Dark Money is like reading the first chapter of what may be a great political page-turner.”
—Chicago Tribune

“Jane Mayer . . . is, quite simply, one of the very few utterly invaluable journalists this country has.” —Esquire

Are books like this the ‘conspiracies’ you’re talking about?

 

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
Total Posts:  17735
Joined  15-02-2008
 
 
 
10 October 2019 20:03
 
unsmoked - 10 October 2019 11:05 AM
GAD - 09 October 2019 07:06 PM
unsmoked - 09 October 2019 12:43 PM
GAD - 08 October 2019 08:54 PM

Wait, what is this, Chinese EV’s struggling for sales, 6 billion in debt so far, blamed on a reduction in subsidies. This sounds like every other EV company in the world, guess China isn’t so magic after all. 

https://techcrunch.com/2019/10/08/after-several-disappointing-quarters-chinese-ev-maker-nios-sales-surge/

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/08/768373897/how-electric-cars-will-change-driving-and-the-economy

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/01/cars/future-of-electric-car-charging/index.html

IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL BUY

Electric cars don’t need fast chargers all the time, of course. The vast majority of the time, electric cars are charged at home or at work, using chargers that can take six to eight hours. Fast chargers are different. They are designed to quickly fill a car’s battery—not all the way, which would stress the battery, but usually up to about 80%—so people can get back on their way.

Fast chargers are usually only needed when people want to go on long drives. These chargers are important, though, because people considering buying an electric car need to have confidence they can take the occasional road trip.

My father bought a Model T for several hundred dollars while courting my mother.  They went on far-flung road trips (maybe 50 miles) on bad roads with those 1920’s tires.  Daredevils.  Look what it led to.

Did Eisenhower get his ideas for the Interstate Highways from seeing the Autobahn?

https://www.businessinsider.com/volkswagen-beetle-history-2016-4  Imagine an EV that every driver could afford because of mass production, robot assembly etc.  The JOLT?  A state-of-the-art car designed to be easily receptive to improved batteries and other year by year innovations?

I realize this is a fantasy, but Greta Thunberg’s generation, our grandkids, will make it a reality as sea-level cities around the world flood, and forest towns like Paradise CA burn . . .  not to mention, more of their generation will ride bicycles, eat less meat, fewer will be obese, and more will take solar-heated showers.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Jaxpety-Solar-Heated-Shower-Spa-Poolside-Beach-Hot-Cold-Base-5-3-Gallons-Outdoor/310891310?  (The Children’s Crusade)

 

If ever read what I write then you would know that I am 100% for EV’s, they can’t come soon enough for me, I watch, research and talk EV tech constantly with my friends. I’m only trying to tell you that whining about shit and conspiracies and posting about a whiny ignorant teenage girl does absolutely fucking nothing to help anything or change reality.

You would whine too if you were inheriting the world.she’s inheriting. 

A quote about the book, ‘FALTER’ by Bill McKibben:

“It’s not an exaggeration to say that Bill McKibben has written a book so important, reading it might save your life, not to mention your home: Planet Earth. Falter is a brilliant, impassioned call to arms to save our climate from those profiting from its destruction before it’s too late. Over and over, McKibben has proven one of the most farsighted and gifted voices of our times, and with Falter he has topped himself, producing a book that honestly, everyone should read.” —Jane Mayer, bestselling author of Dark Money

Praise for Jane Mayer’s Dark Money

“Revelatory. . . . Persuasive, timely and necessary.” —The New York Times

“Dark Money is more than just a work of political journalism—it’s a vital portrait of a nation that, as perhaps never before, is being shaped by a few very rich, very conservative businessmen.” —San Francisco Chronicle

“Absolutely necessary reading for anyone who wants to make sense of our politics.” —The New York Review of Books

“Deeply researched and studded with detail . . . Seems destined to rattle the Koch executive offices in Wichita as other investigations have not.” —Washington Post

“With such turmoil on the right wing of American politics, reading Dark Money is like reading the first chapter of what may be a great political page-turner.”
—Chicago Tribune

“Jane Mayer . . . is, quite simply, one of the very few utterly invaluable journalists this country has.” —Esquire

Are books like this the ‘conspiracies’ you’re talking about?

All whining that will achieve nothing.

 
 
GAD
 
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GAD
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Joined  15-02-2008
 
 
 
10 October 2019 23:04
 
Antisocialdarwinist - 08 October 2019 11:49 AM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 08 October 2019 07:20 AM
Antisocialdarwinist - 07 October 2019 05:25 PM
TheAnal_lyticPhilosopher - 07 October 2019 04:13 PM

In fact, if you got internal combustion cars up to 50 miles per gallon, under current power generation in the US electric cars and internal combustion cars would be climate-change wash.

I’ve wondered about this. Where did you get that number, 50 mpg?

From converting the energy output of gasoline into kWh, pro-rating for the relative efficiency of internal combustion and electric engines, then looking at the aggregate mileage of commercial and non-commercial traffic annually.  From there it’s a matter of C02 emissions for gasoline engines for the given mileage versus emissions from generating the electricity necessary to power electric cars.  That apples-to-apples comparison comes out to about 50 mpg. 

At least I think that’s how I did it, and that’s the result I remember (it’s been a couple of years since this came up in a conversation, and I no longer have the napkin I sketched it on…)

In any case, exactitude aside—and the data are estimates from online sources—the principle holds that given how we generate power, there is a convergent mpg where electric cars and internal combustion engines come out as a climate change wash.  Given their limitations and the impact those limitations would have on our economy absent the costs of the infrastructure and amenities required to make electric cars and trucks work…given those factors, the electric car is not the first line of defense we should be aiming at to reduce our carbon footprint, in my opinion.

Here is a website that mentions the metric, mpge, or miles per gallon equivalent: “the distance a car can travel under electric power on the same amount of energy that’s contained in 1 gallon of gasoline.” According to this website, the BMW i3 (I’m assuming they’re referring to the electric-only model) gets 124 mpge. Too bad they don’t show their calculations.

The 30% loss due to transmission and distribution lines you mentioned might help explain the difference. Then again, one could argue that transporting oil to refineries and gasoline to gas stations create a kind of inefficiency of their own that should be taken into account.

I agree that recharge time is probably the biggest obstacle to electric cars becoming more popular.

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/alternative-fuels/fuel-cell4.htm

 
 
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