Another off-duty police officer shot someone,

 
nonverbal
 
Avatar
 
 
nonverbal
Total Posts:  1838
Joined  31-10-2015
 
 
 
02 October 2019 12:45
 

and I now have yet another reason to ponder how I’ll someday die. That is, I used to think I was safe from distracted drivers once I pulled into my driveway, but now there’s this bit of reality, in which a police officer seemed to be able to drive okay while texting, but tragically, forgot where her front door was:

. . . [T]exts by Guyger . . . played an important role in her trial, when prosecutors argued a sexually explicit exchange with her partner on the Dallas police force distracted her as she walked to Jean’s apartment, which was one floor above her own.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/02/amber-guyger-offensive-texts-botham-jean-murder/

 

[ Edited: 02 October 2019 13:18 by nonverbal]
 
EN
 
Avatar
 
 
EN
Total Posts:  21702
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
02 October 2019 13:51
 

She was convicted of murder.  While it’s understandable that she thought that was her apartment, her actions were just too over the top for the jury to forgive.  She barged in and shot a guy in his own apartment while he was watching TV and eating a bowl of ice cream.  Then did too little to save his life. Started out as a mistake, ended in murder.

 
Jan_CAN
 
Avatar
 
 
Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  3468
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
02 October 2019 14:21
 
EN - 02 October 2019 01:51 PM

She was convicted of murder.  While it’s understandable that she thought that was her apartment, her actions were just too over the top for the jury to forgive.  She barged in and shot a guy in his own apartment while he was watching TV and eating a bowl of ice cream.  Then did too little to save his life. Started out as a mistake, ended in murder.

I had expected the conviction would likely be reduced to Voluntary Manslaughter (see “imperfect self-defense” and “deliberate homicide committed without criminal malice” in link below).  There’s no doubt that what she did was terribly wrong and criminal, but also can’t help but wonder if the publicity surrounding this case affected the outcome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter_(United_States_law)

 

 
 
EN
 
Avatar
 
 
EN
Total Posts:  21702
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
02 October 2019 16:07
 

She only got 10 years.  Jury considered sudden passion defense.  Victims brother hugged and forgave her after sentencing.  Very sad case for everyone.

 
Brick Bungalow
 
Avatar
 
 
Brick Bungalow
Total Posts:  5181
Joined  28-05-2009
 
 
 
02 October 2019 21:19
 
Jan_CAN - 02 October 2019 02:21 PM
EN - 02 October 2019 01:51 PM

She was convicted of murder.  While it’s understandable that she thought that was her apartment, her actions were just too over the top for the jury to forgive.  She barged in and shot a guy in his own apartment while he was watching TV and eating a bowl of ice cream.  Then did too little to save his life. Started out as a mistake, ended in murder.

I had expected the conviction would likely be reduced to Voluntary Manslaughter (see “imperfect self-defense” and “deliberate homicide committed without criminal malice” in link below).  There’s no doubt that what she did was terribly wrong and criminal, but also can’t help but wonder if the publicity surrounding this case affected the outcome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter_(United_States_law)

It’s hard to know where to stand here. A lot of people want to simply double down on retribution… which I absolutely get considering the larger context. I don’t have any desire to see Guyger suffer but I worry about the precedent that a lenient sentence would set. In that vein I think the location is important. Killing someone in THEIR home needs to carry special consideration… again because of precedent.

I do believe publicity affected the outcome but I think it was in the interest of justice. So many police slayings end in little or no discipline at all. I think it’s entirely appropriate for public outcry to be considered in destabilizing events like this. Not trial by media or public perception but the court officers who favor their own need to understand the cost of the double standard.

 
Jan_CAN
 
Avatar
 
 
Jan_CAN
Total Posts:  3468
Joined  21-10-2016
 
 
 
03 October 2019 08:43
 
Brick Bungalow - 02 October 2019 09:19 PM
Jan_CAN - 02 October 2019 02:21 PM

I had expected the conviction would likely be reduced to Voluntary Manslaughter (see “imperfect self-defense” and “deliberate homicide committed without criminal malice” in link below).  There’s no doubt that what she did was terribly wrong and criminal, but also can’t help but wonder if the publicity surrounding this case affected the outcome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter_(United_States_law)

It’s hard to know where to stand here. A lot of people want to simply double down on retribution… which I absolutely get considering the larger context. I don’t have any desire to see Guyger suffer but I worry about the precedent that a lenient sentence would set. In that vein I think the location is important. Killing someone in THEIR home needs to carry special consideration… again because of precedent.

I do believe publicity affected the outcome but I think it was in the interest of justice. So many police slayings end in little or no discipline at all. I think it’s entirely appropriate for public outcry to be considered in destabilizing events like this. Not trial by media or public perception but the court officers who favor their own need to understand the cost of the double standard.

Yes, it is hard to know where to stand, and the location and motive differs from the ‘typical’ police shooting.  Public outcry is often very necessary in the face of injustices, but there is a fine line if hate blinds people and causes a mob mentality.  The victim’s family appear to exemplify the desire and need for justice, but not from a place of hate and revenge.  In contrast, some of the people outside the courtroom displayed anger and hate, which although understandable, overall could create an atmosphere that is not conducive to finding solutions or that could lead to healing.

In addition, this tragedy seems to be the result of a shoot-first-think-later mentality which should not be the reaction of a trained police officer.  When police shootings happen, in my opinion there is not nearly enough emphasis on prevention.  It is more than likely that better recruitment practises and police training that includes anti-bias and de-escalation training (think before you shoot) could save lives and increase trust in police.

In regards to sentencing, the issue of long sentences being served by black people for non-violent crime is sometimes cited as a comparison.  These injustices should lead to reassessment of the criminal system and reduction of those sentences and/or release of many of those convicted, rather than being used as some kind of baseline which could lead to further injustices.  In this case, I’m not at all sure what is right, but a ten-year sentence seems appropriate.  (I think additionally, upon release, she should be permanently barred from possessing any firearm.) 

 

 
 
EN
 
Avatar
 
 
EN
Total Posts:  21702
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
03 October 2019 10:00
 

Yes, there are multiple sides to this story - one the one hand, it’s very easy to see how one could mistake an apartment.  On the other hand, she killed a dude eating ice cream on his couch.  The jury showed some leniency and discretion in giving her 10 years, when she could have gotten 99.  The brother forgave her. This one probably turned out about as right as horrible situations can.  I do agree that her firearm days should be over, which I think they will be.  She is a convicted murderer.  She probably doesn’t want to get within 100 yards of a gun right now, any way - they did her no service.

 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  7135
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
03 October 2019 12:36
 
EN - 03 October 2019 10:00 AM

one the one hand, it’s very easy to see how one could mistake an apartment.  On the other hand, she killed a dude eating ice cream on his couch.

She didn’t notice the different couch, TV, curtains, area rug, pictures, wall colour or other ‘differences’ between her own apartment and this guys place?

 
 
EN
 
Avatar
 
 
EN
Total Posts:  21702
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
03 October 2019 12:43
 
Jefe - 03 October 2019 12:36 PM
EN - 03 October 2019 10:00 AM

one the one hand, it’s very easy to see how one could mistake an apartment.  On the other hand, she killed a dude eating ice cream on his couch.

She didn’t notice the different couch, TV, curtains, area rug, pictures, wall colour or other ‘differences’ between her own apartment and this guys place?

I’m guessing she honed in on the guy, and didn’t look around.  Once she made up her mind that someone was in her apt., that’s all she focused on.  The jury did convict her, but felt that there were some mitigating circumstances, I guess.

 
Jefe
 
Avatar
 
 
Jefe
Total Posts:  7135
Joined  15-02-2007
 
 
 
03 October 2019 12:46
 
EN - 03 October 2019 12:43 PM
Jefe - 03 October 2019 12:36 PM
EN - 03 October 2019 10:00 AM

one the one hand, it’s very easy to see how one could mistake an apartment.  On the other hand, she killed a dude eating ice cream on his couch.

She didn’t notice the different couch, TV, curtains, area rug, pictures, wall colour or other ‘differences’ between her own apartment and this guys place?

I’m guessing she honed in on the guy, and didn’t look around.  Once she made up her mind that someone was in her apt., that’s all she focused on.  The jury did convict her, but felt that there were some mitigating circumstances, I guess.

As you say, we (and I) don’t have all the facts of the case, but this strikes me as a stretch.

 
 
EN
 
Avatar
 
 
EN
Total Posts:  21702
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
03 October 2019 12:49
 
Jefe - 03 October 2019 12:46 PM
EN - 03 October 2019 12:43 PM
Jefe - 03 October 2019 12:36 PM
EN - 03 October 2019 10:00 AM

one the one hand, it’s very easy to see how one could mistake an apartment.  On the other hand, she killed a dude eating ice cream on his couch.

She didn’t notice the different couch, TV, curtains, area rug, pictures, wall colour or other ‘differences’ between her own apartment and this guys place?

I’m guessing she honed in on the guy, and didn’t look around.  Once she made up her mind that someone was in her apt., that’s all she focused on.  The jury did convict her, but felt that there were some mitigating circumstances, I guess.

As you say, we (and I) don’t have all the facts of the case, but this strikes me as a stretch.

You really have to sit on a jury and hear and see it all before knowing what you would actually do.  Sometimes those verdicts and sentences are compromises among the 12 people.

 
EN
 
Avatar
 
 
EN
Total Posts:  21702
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
03 October 2019 12:50
 

And furthermore, considering this is Texas, it’s a miracle she got convicted at all.

 
MrRon
 
Avatar
 
 
MrRon
Total Posts:  1883
Joined  14-08-2008
 
 
 
03 October 2019 18:10
 

Wasn’t it also revealed that she had some racist texts on her phone??

Yeah, this one is not cut and dry. I don’t think she’s a cold blooded murderer, but the end result is that an innocent person died unnecessarily at her hands. It’s tragic for sure.

Ron

 
EN
 
Avatar
 
 
EN
Total Posts:  21702
Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
03 October 2019 19:14
 
MrRon - 03 October 2019 06:10 PM

Wasn’t it also revealed that she had some racist texts on her phone??

Yeah, this one is not cut and dry. I don’t think she’s a cold blooded murderer, but the end result is that an innocent person died unnecessarily at her hands. It’s tragic for sure.

Ron

Yes, she had some racist texts. But that doesn’t totally explain what happened. Once she came to the conclusion that her apartment had been broken into, she honed in on that.  She was wrong, and she will pay the price, but 10 years is not unjust.

 
Skipshot
 
Avatar
 
 
Skipshot
Total Posts:  9669
Joined  20-10-2006
 
 
 
05 October 2019 00:18
 

As a member of the court of public opinion, I am glad she was convicted since there was too much pointing to murder rather than manslaughter.  Apparently she noticed the door was unlocked and could hear the TV.  She was not in danger, and she could safely retreat at any time before her encounter.  Instead of calling for backup, as cops are trained to do, she chose to enter like a TV cop with her gun drawn and without announcing herself, which to me indicates an intent to shoot whoever is inside.

As for the sentence, that is for the judge and jury to decide.