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Even the Slightest Thing Is Dust

 
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05 October 2019 11:27
 

Original mind - It is simply what you are before thoughts arise, before habits, effort, and aspirations arise . . . 

“You should put everything aside right away and penetrate through to freedom on that side.  That is why it is said, “Even the slightest thing is dust - as soon as you rouse your intellect you are assailed by the demons of delusion.”  -  Yuanwu

(Yuanwu quoted from the book, ZEN LETTERS - Teachings of Yuanwu, translated by J.C. Cleary and Thomas Cleary)

photo - a beluga makes an ‘enso’ (Zen circles of enlightenment)

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05 October 2019 16:32
 
unsmoked - 05 October 2019 11:27 AM

Original mind - It is simply what you are before thoughts arise, before habits, effort, and aspirations arise . . . 

“You should put everything aside right away and penetrate through to freedom on that side.  That is why it is said, “Even the slightest thing is dust - as soon as you rouse your intellect you are assailed by the demons of delusion.”  -  Yuanwu

(Yuanwu quoted from the book, ZEN LETTERS - Teachings of Yuanwu, translated by J.C. Cleary and Thomas Cleary)

photo - a beluga makes an ‘enso’ (Zen circles of enlightenment)

Once again, I have to gently point out the internal contradiction of this manner of thinking.  In order for Yuanwu to make the statement attributed to him above, he had to “rouse his intellect” - otherwise he could not have made a coherent statement.  So in writing this he was, by his own admission, “assailed by the demons of delusion.”  So how can we be sure that he was not deceived in writing it?  And if he ever actually penetrated through to freedom, how did he remember it?  Because in order to remember anything, you have to “rouse your intellect”?  Reason is a bitch, unsmoked.

 
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06 October 2019 12:19
 
EN - 05 October 2019 04:32 PM
unsmoked - 05 October 2019 11:27 AM

Original mind - It is simply what you are before thoughts arise, before habits, effort, and aspirations arise . . . 

“You should put everything aside right away and penetrate through to freedom on that side.  That is why it is said, “Even the slightest thing is dust - as soon as you rouse your intellect you are assailed by the demons of delusion.”  -  Yuanwu

(Yuanwu quoted from the book, ZEN LETTERS - Teachings of Yuanwu, translated by J.C. Cleary and Thomas Cleary)

photo - a beluga makes an ‘enso’ (Zen circles of enlightenment)

Once again, I have to gently point out the internal contradiction of this manner of thinking.  In order for Yuanwu to make the statement attributed to him above, he had to “rouse his intellect” - otherwise he could not have made a coherent statement.  So in writing this he was, by his own admission, “assailed by the demons of delusion.”  So how can we be sure that he was not deceived in writing it?  And if he ever actually penetrated through to freedom, how did he remember it?  Because in order to remember anything, you have to “rouse your intellect”?  Reason is a bitch, unsmoked.

Agreed.  Reason is a bitch.  “Even the slightest thing is dust.”

 

 

 

 

 
 
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06 October 2019 15:09
 
EN - 05 October 2019 04:32 PM
unsmoked - 05 October 2019 11:27 AM

Original mind - It is simply what you are before thoughts arise, before habits, effort, and aspirations arise . . . 

“You should put everything aside right away and penetrate through to freedom on that side.  That is why it is said, “Even the slightest thing is dust - as soon as you rouse your intellect you are assailed by the demons of delusion.”  -  Yuanwu

(Yuanwu quoted from the book, ZEN LETTERS - Teachings of Yuanwu, translated by J.C. Cleary and Thomas Cleary)

photo - a beluga makes an ‘enso’ (Zen circles of enlightenment)

Once again, I have to gently point out the internal contradiction of this manner of thinking.  In order for Yuanwu to make the statement attributed to him above, he had to “rouse his intellect” - otherwise he could not have made a coherent statement.  So in writing this he was, by his own admission, “assailed by the demons of delusion.”  So how can we be sure that he was not deceived in writing it?  And if he ever actually penetrated through to freedom, how did he remember it?  Because in order to remember anything, you have to “rouse your intellect”?  Reason is a bitch, unsmoked.

unsmoked is passing on a warning to intellectuals to be wary of intellect since it can tie you in knots, as you must be quite aware, counselor.  That is all.  Zen tells us to beware of reading too much into Zen, as you just did.

 
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06 October 2019 15:19
 
Skipshot - 06 October 2019 03:09 PM
EN - 05 October 2019 04:32 PM
unsmoked - 05 October 2019 11:27 AM

Original mind - It is simply what you are before thoughts arise, before habits, effort, and aspirations arise . . . 

“You should put everything aside right away and penetrate through to freedom on that side.  That is why it is said, “Even the slightest thing is dust - as soon as you rouse your intellect you are assailed by the demons of delusion.”  -  Yuanwu

(Yuanwu quoted from the book, ZEN LETTERS - Teachings of Yuanwu, translated by J.C. Cleary and Thomas Cleary)

photo - a beluga makes an ‘enso’ (Zen circles of enlightenment)

Once again, I have to gently point out the internal contradiction of this manner of thinking.  In order for Yuanwu to make the statement attributed to him above, he had to “rouse his intellect” - otherwise he could not have made a coherent statement.  So in writing this he was, by his own admission, “assailed by the demons of delusion.”  So how can we be sure that he was not deceived in writing it?  And if he ever actually penetrated through to freedom, how did he remember it?  Because in order to remember anything, you have to “rouse your intellect”?  Reason is a bitch, unsmoked.

unsmoked is passing on a warning to intellectuals to be wary of intellect since it can tie you in knots, as you must be quite aware, counselor.  That is all.  Zen tells us to beware of reading too much into Zen, as you just did.

Yes, I understand. Which sort of undermines the whole “reason refutes religion” argument, upon which this entire forum is based. How do I know if I read too much into Zen?  How do I know anything at all?  If Zen doesn’t rely on religious faith and it doesn’t rely upon reason, upon what does it rely?  Aren’t you running out of options?  Is the sole basis of it the pronouncements of some Eastern mystic? 

Well, at least we all can agree that alcohol has an effect on you.  Did you know that one star in the constellation Perseus is named “Algol”, which is where we get the word “alcohol”?  Algol is the “head” of Medusa in the constellation.  It means “demon” in Arabic.  So, the demon alcohol makes you “lose your head”, as Medusa did.  What does Zen make you do?

 
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06 October 2019 17:27
 
EN - 06 October 2019 03:19 PM

If Zen doesn’t rely on religious faith and it doesn’t rely upon reason, upon what does it rely?

It relies on the original mind.  (You are reading too much into it, again.)

 
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06 October 2019 18:21
 
Skipshot - 06 October 2019 05:27 PM
EN - 06 October 2019 03:19 PM

If Zen doesn’t rely on religious faith and it doesn’t rely upon reason, upon what does it rely?

It relies on the original mind.  (You are reading too much into it, again.)


How do I know when to stop reading?

 
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06 October 2019 22:24
 
EN - 06 October 2019 06:21 PM
Skipshot - 06 October 2019 05:27 PM
EN - 06 October 2019 03:19 PM

If Zen doesn’t rely on religious faith and it doesn’t rely upon reason, upon what does it rely?

It relies on the original mind.  (You are reading too much into it, again.)


How do I know when to stop reading?

When you realize you are reading into it.  Zen is emptying you mind of thoughts, interpretations, assumptions, etc.  Western philosophical tradition does not have a clear counterpart to Zen or Taoism, but I hear Stoicism comes close, but that was incorporated into Christianity, which added the unnecessary element of the supernatural to wreck Stoicism.  But enough of that.

Zen is being who you are.  It is letting the world be what it is.  Zen is not contemplating your navel.  Zen is drinking tequila and lime because you wanted to.  Top athletes are Zen when they do well because that’s what they want to do.  Zen is mowing the lawn and having a beer, and if you think about it too much it wrecks the experience.

“You can’t think and hit at the same time.”  - Yogi Berra

“Music is the silence between the notes.”  - Debussy

 
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07 October 2019 09:25
 

So, is it the opposite of the well-examined life?  Sort of sounds like a distillation of “if it feels good, do it.”  What if my original mind is all screwed up?

 
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07 October 2019 12:23
 
EN - 07 October 2019 09:25 AM

So, is it the opposite of the well-examined life?  Sort of sounds like a distillation of “if it feels good, do it.”  What if my original mind is all screwed up?

Some practice Zen because their mind is screwed up.  Obviously, why bother if original mind is screwed up. (original mind = the mind we were born with)

Can the dust get blown off original mind in a single moment?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Sermon

 

 
 
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07 October 2019 17:23
 
EN - 07 October 2019 09:25 AM

So, is it the opposite of the well-examined life?  Sort of sounds like a distillation of “if it feels good, do it.”  What if my original mind is all screwed up?

Not at all.  Zen is living the life which is natural to you, and if examining your life is part of who you are, then that is Zen.  Telling everyone to examine their lives is not Zen.

Trump is Zen because lying and being a world class asshole comes easily to him.  Lebron James is Zen because basketball comes easily to him.  The homeless living under a bridge could be Zen because that is what comes easily to them.

You are looking for hard and easily categorized rules in Zen, but there are none, and this seems the frustrate you.

 
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10 October 2019 11:16
 
EN - 05 October 2019 04:32 PM
unsmoked - 05 October 2019 11:27 AM

Original mind - It is simply what you are before thoughts arise, before habits, effort, and aspirations arise . . . 

“You should put everything aside right away and penetrate through to freedom on that side.  That is why it is said, “Even the slightest thing is dust - as soon as you rouse your intellect you are assailed by the demons of delusion.”  -  Yuanwu

(Yuanwu quoted from the book, ZEN LETTERS - Teachings of Yuanwu, translated by J.C. Cleary and Thomas Cleary)

photo - a beluga makes an ‘enso’ (Zen circles of enlightenment)

Once again, I have to gently point out the internal contradiction of this manner of thinking.  In order for Yuanwu to make the statement attributed to him above, he had to “rouse his intellect” - otherwise he could not have made a coherent statement.  So in writing this he was, by his own admission, “assailed by the demons of delusion.”  So how can we be sure that he was not deceived in writing it?  And if he ever actually penetrated through to freedom, how did he remember it?  Because in order to remember anything, you have to “rouse your intellect”?  Reason is a bitch, unsmoked.

Yuanwu comments, “The Tao is originally without words, but we use words to reveal the Tao.”

 

 
 
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10 October 2019 12:51
 
Skipshot - 07 October 2019 05:23 PM
EN - 07 October 2019 09:25 AM

So, is it the opposite of the well-examined life?  Sort of sounds like a distillation of “if it feels good, do it.”  What if my original mind is all screwed up?

Not at all.  Zen is living the life which is natural to you, and if examining your life is part of who you are, then that is Zen.  Telling everyone to examine their lives is not Zen.

Trump is Zen because lying and being a world class asshole comes easily to him.  Lebron James is Zen because basketball comes easily to him.  The homeless living under a bridge could be Zen because that is what comes easily to them.

You are looking for hard and easily categorized rules in Zen, but there are none, and this seems the frustrate you.

I’m not frustrated.  But wish Trump would not be Zen, cuz it really sucks.  Can’t he be a Baptist?

 
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10 October 2019 16:11
 
EN - 10 October 2019 12:51 PM

Can’t he be a Baptist?

I didn’t know Baptists were world class assholes.

 
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10 October 2019 17:45
 
Skipshot - 10 October 2019 04:11 PM
EN - 10 October 2019 12:51 PM

Can’t he be a Baptist?

I didn’t know Baptists were world class assholes.

They can be, just like Zens.  The difference is that Zen let’s Trump be Trump, while Baptists scare you with hell if you act badly, in hopes of changing your behavior.  Maybe that would work on Trump, but don’t know since he is used to making deals with the devil.

 
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12 October 2019 12:27
 
EN - 10 October 2019 05:45 PM
Skipshot - 10 October 2019 04:11 PM
EN - 10 October 2019 12:51 PM

Can’t he be a Baptist?

I didn’t know Baptists were world class assholes.

They can be, just like Zens.  The difference is that Zen let’s Trump be Trump, while Baptists scare you with hell if you act badly, in hopes of changing your behavior.  Maybe that would work on Trump, but don’t know since he is used to making deals with the devil.

“Be aware of cause and effect so that you fear to do wrong.”  -  ZEN

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/04/10/trump-university-settlement-judge-finalized/502387002/

 

 
 
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